Am I crazy for upgrading with tenants in place?

Am I crazy for upgrading with tenants in place?

Member since 2020 · 104 posts · 36 votes

I've already made up my mind that I'm doing this, but I want to get some feedback on whether I'm crazy for doing so. Sorry if this is moot, but I am generally curious and perhaps it will sway my decisions with future properties.

Some Background: I purchased two duplexes and am keeping two of the tenants. They have been here for years (one for over 10 years!) without a lease (month to month) and the prior owners haven't really done anything in that time to keep the units in good condition. The tenants have taken it upon themselves to paint and do general maintenance. The identical duplexes were built in 1998 and have the original super cheap, laminated cabinetry and mostly old, worn out white appliances (one has 3 burners out!). The rents were way below market, at $800.00, and they both have now signed leases for $1,500.00! At that price, I know these units are not up to par but I understand that they did not want to go through the hassle of moving and so decided to stay. We also offered a 15 month lease with $500 of the first 3 months' rent going to the deposit, so they're technically getting 3 months at $1,000.00. I want to keep these tenants as long as I can and believe they will keep their places in good condition, given how well they have treated what they had over the years.

With that said, I originally was not planning on any tenants agreeing to stay and had planned to update all the units after they moved out. However, even though two tenants are staying, I still believe that doing some updates to warrant the new rent is the right thing to do; especially since the other two units will be fully updated and rented for the same or slightly more rent. I also hope this will keep these tenants in place going forward. 

I will be updating their kitchens with new lighting (swap LED for fluorescent), solid construction cabinets, granite counters and stainless appliances. I may also do some small bathroom updates, such as a new vanities (these are very small bathrooms with tiny vanities, so price will be minimal). My property manager will be handling the process and has a good crew they use for all their work. I'm confident they will be able to proceed without any grievances from the tenants as they've been very understanding and reasonable with everything so far. 

I'm wondering if I'm being crazy here in doing these updates now. There is, of course, risk for tenant grievances and I already have the tenants in place with leases. I'm electing to do this now, instead of waiting a year to see if they renew and, if not, then do the upgrades. 

The total cost of the kitchen upgrades works out to around $6-7K per unit, if that makes any difference.  

Thank you for your feedback. Even though it's happening either way, I appreciate knowing if I'm actually doing the right thing here, from a business perspective. Below is an old photo I got off one of the listings and the render from the cabinet supplier (yes they are reversed). 

0Reply
60 views

Most Popular Reply

Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
6y

A question for you:

Have you ever lived through a kitchen or bath remodel in your own home while living there?  It's not for the faint of heart - and it's a lot to ask of a tenant. I did have a client who had the tenant's blessing to do it while he lived there (the existing kitchen and bath were very dated) and it took longer than expected, was messier/dirtier than the tenant thought and could tolerate, and in the end was just too much drama.

You may want to consider taking it down a notch or two...maybe change out the lighting, swap out the cabinet doors rather than replace the cabinets, new faucets can really make a difference, and those peal and stick backsplash tiles from places like Wallpop can be transforming.  Jobs that can be done in a few hours or within a day are much more respectful of your tenants.  

It's important to remember not to over-improve; you've got great tenants so leave them alone.  It's their home. They've got living to do. You've got money to make and retain.

Just one opinion...

See this reply in the discussion

17 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    6y

    If they agree to the increase in rent without upgrades, I'd be tempted to do what is cost effective and the least disruptive.  Doing a kitchen will take time and is very disruptive.  What are the tenants going to do while the renos are happening?

    I'm guessing two of the units are vacant.  Why not do those first, then the current tenants can see what they look like, you will have a better idea of the real costs and time to do them.

  • Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    A question for you:

    Have you ever lived through a kitchen or bath remodel in your own home while living there?  It's not for the faint of heart - and it's a lot to ask of a tenant. I did have a client who had the tenant's blessing to do it while he lived there (the existing kitchen and bath were very dated) and it took longer than expected, was messier/dirtier than the tenant thought and could tolerate, and in the end was just too much drama.

    You may want to consider taking it down a notch or two...maybe change out the lighting, swap out the cabinet doors rather than replace the cabinets, new faucets can really make a difference, and those peal and stick backsplash tiles from places like Wallpop can be transforming.  Jobs that can be done in a few hours or within a day are much more respectful of your tenants.  

    It's important to remember not to over-improve; you've got great tenants so leave them alone.  It's their home. They've got living to do. You've got money to make and retain.

    Just one opinion...

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    Did you talk to them?  Did you promise this with the rent raise? This is very inconvenient for tenants. Some things you can do without inconveniencing them and have a nice result. A stove that all burners work, a bigger fridge. They see you care. Wait until they see the new units and want the new cabinets and countertop.  I know you want to do it but it if you are getting the rent and they are happy why do it? And based on that picture it doesn't need to be done if you have functional cabinets and countertops are fine. 

    Let me tell you about a good long term tenant. She rarely asks for anything but when we bought the property she saw we were doing things and she complained the fridge was noisy. I replaced the fridge. It was functional but it was loud. That was important to her.  At the time, she had a rug in front of her bathroom sink covering missing tiles and no tile in the shower (just paint). Those were not her priority. We addressed those and other issues when she went out of town. That kept her happy and we still maintained the unit but to her the fridge was everything.  

     I can tell you, you cannot replace a kitchen without inconveniencing a tenant. Also after 1 tenant uses the kitchen it isn't new anymore. 

  • Member since 2020 · 104 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Theresa Harris Yes, I will likely be doing at least one, if not both vacant units first. I should clarify, one of the units is not yet vacant. We are working on getting that tenant out and hopefully they will be gone by the end of this month. I'm living in the other currently. The cabinets and appliances have already been procured ($2,100 & $2,250 each kitchen, respectively). Counters should come in around 1K ($35/sqft). The cabinets won't be delivered for another few weeks. I will be working with my property manager to determine the best approach as the work is being done. The actual cabinet replacement should be a 1-2 day job, but there is a turn around time on the countertops of up to 10 days. I'm mostly certain we can take some measure to accommodate them during that time.

  • Member since 2020 · 104 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    All good points so far. Both tenants have voiced a desire for updated kitchens and that they feel the new price does not reflect the condition of their units. However, I will certainly not push it on them if they don't want them. Worst case, if they decide otherwise, I will store the cabinets for a later time. However, as of right now, both have been excited at the idea of new cabinets and both seem understanding of the process. I will leave it up to my property manager to make the final call. 

    It sounds like most of the concerns revolve around tenant discomfort during the process, which I am fully keeping in mind as we approach this. 

    One other thing I completely forgot to mention is I'm planning on refinancing out of the FHA loan I have on one of the units and want to ideally not have to pay down the balance to get the required LTV. I'm also hoping to take out a heloc or cash out refi on the other as soon as I can as well. I am using these upgrades to justify a higher appraisal as well, so there are other motivations at play also.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y

    Common repositioning letter to residents:

    Option 1: stay in existing unit (with non-invasive upgrades) and sign lease at market rate

    Option 2: move into a renovated unit in the building and sign lease at market rate

    Option 3: vacate (provide 60 days)

    Full rehab of occupied units is uncommon and challenging. Most PMs won't do it...and most renters do not want to live in a construction zone. It can be done though and your pricing seems reasonable.

    It's also uncommon for a resident to stay (or qualify) with a near 100% increase in rent.

  • Member since 2020 · 104 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Mike Dymski I had considered completing the two vacant units and offering to let the tenants move into those units. Obviously there would be a little more cost involved, since I would then have to do all the updates necessary in their units before renting them out, including new paint and cleaning. However, that isn't necessarily a deal breaker. I will discuss all options with my property manager. Thanks.

  • Member since 2019 · 448 posts · 306 votes
    6y

    @Phillip Rosin

    Hey Phil,

    I have done my first 3 rentals the same. Purchased them, filled them with tenants, and THEN did renovations. New kitchens, new flooring, paint, everything.

    2 things:

    1. Ask your tenants if they want the renovations done. If they say no then leave the units as is. My tenants appreciated the upgrades.

    2. Those kitchen cabinets look okay. If i were you i would use paint. Paint them a nice color and put in cool hardware. I do this in every home i buy. It costs $150 and they turn out amazing.

    Happy Housing,

    -Matt

  • Member since 2020 · 104 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Matt Nico Thank you for the suggestions. I will absolutely make sure they want these upgrades before proceeding. The main kitchen complaints have been no cabinet between the stove and fridge and only one drawer in the entire kitchen, along with old appliances. I had considered painting the cabinets. However, I do not want to do work myself in an occupied unit (and the PM is very against it as well) and for the price of having someone else paint and then also replacing hardware, I decided spending $2K on cabinets that are solid construction and should hold up over the years would be worth the investment and also help with my refinancing/loc goals. It is entirely possible I am over improving and this will be a lesson for me. The good news is after all is said and done, with my current budget, I'll be at 13-14% COC return between the two duplexes and have a good bit of equity as well. I've done an extensive renovation on a house before (and have a civil engineering degree) and I have a good process for budgeting, so I'm quite confident in my numbers, but time will tell. The current budget is at $46K, including an unfortunate death of an ac unit not even a month after closing :( $70K would put me at 12% COC. I should wind up under $50K. Again, this is for 4 units.

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    6y

    A kitchen reno with new cabinets is going to be hell with your tenants in place. The exception to this is if they were going to be gone for a week, say on a vacation or similar. 

    I once did a complete bathroom remodel for a tenant on a 3-day holiday weekend when they were out of town - flooring, fixtures, new plumbing, everything. It was hell but it had to be done as the plumbing sprung a slow leak on a clawfoot tub and it was impossible to access the plumbing with the tub in place, and the floor and wall had to be cut to make repairs. 

    What you are suggesting with cabinets is going to be rough with tenants in place. I would save that for vacancies. Everything else you listed can be done without too much headache for the tenants. Swapping out appliances is a one-day deal. So are lights if you have a competent electrician/handyman. Counters and cabinets, that's not going to go 1-2-3. You have to place the bases, get them templated for the granite, granite has to be cut and scheduled, sink opening and faucet mounts cut, plumbing reinstalled, etc. In the meantime if your tenants are there they're living with plywood counters.

    Skyline Properties
    View Page
  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    6y

    @Phillip Rosin if you are crazy than I am crazy.

    You have gotten a lot of good advice and things to think about here. I would avoid any major rehab while tenants are there but you can offer to move them to vacant renovated units. Otherwise choose upgrades that are easy to do with the tenant in place. New appliances for example would be easy with the tenants in place.

    Anything that has deteriorated to the point that there is a risk of other damage, then certainly go ahead and upgrade that as ongoing property maintenance.

  • Member since 2020 · 104 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    Thank you all for more good input. I will take it all into consideration while I find out more from my PM and his contractor on timelines and tenant feedback. 

  • Member since 2019 · 448 posts · 306 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Phillip Rosin:

    @Matt Nico Thank you for the suggestions. I will absolutely make sure they want these upgrades before proceeding. The main kitchen complaints have been no cabinet between the stove and fridge and only one drawer in the entire kitchen, along with old appliances. I had considered painting the cabinets. However, I do not want to do work myself in an occupied unit (and the PM is very against it as well) and for the price of having someone else paint and then also replacing hardware, I decided spending $2K on cabinets that are solid construction and should hold up over the years would be worth the investment and also help with my refinancing/loc goals. It is entirely possible I am over improving and this will be a lesson for me. The good news is after all is said and done, with my current budget, I'll be at 13-14% COC return between the two duplexes and have a good bit of equity as well. I've done an extensive renovation on a house before (and have a civil engineering degree) and I have a good process for budgeting, so I'm quite confident in my numbers, but time will tell. The current budget is at $46K, including an unfortunate death of an ac unit not even a month after closing :( $70K would put me at 12% COC. I should wind up under $50K. Again, this is for 4 units.

    No problem man. Sounds like you are thinking logically and with sound numbers. $2k for cabinets sounds like a good deal. I would definitely go with that. For me to replace cabinets i'm looking at like $5k-$7k all in, so its worth it for me to paint them.

    Love that civil engineering background. I was a civil / environmental engineer before real estate.

    -Matt

  • Member since 2020 · 104 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Matt Nico For that much I would definitely paint as well! Lucky for me they are tiny kitchens. Yeah, I'm hoping to follow a similar path. I wound up getting into IT/Programming and generally enjoy it, but still would prefer to be 100% real estate some day. 

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Phillip Rosin If I were you I would renovate the vacant units first and then move your tenants who wants to stay into the newly renovated units so that I could then renovate the last units without tenants in place.

  • Member since 2020 · 104 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Max T. Thank you. I am seeing a trend of completing two units first and offering to move them into those. That is an idea I am strongly considering. 

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    @Phillip Rosin  when you propose this to them make it clear  if they want you to renovate with them in place they will need to completely move out of the kitchen to their apartment for minimum 7 (or your number) days and won' t have access to it for the duration of the renovation. There really is too much safety risk in any other model and it is better to deliver more then promise more and deliver less. 

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.