Flip in a Hot or Stable Market?

Flip in a Hot or Stable Market?

Investor / Lender · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 730 votes

I'm from Seattle, which might be considered the hottest market in the nation (in terms of flipping, development, and appreciation).  I know many others can relate in similar markets.  I'm a little concerned about the market right now; we're definitely at the peak, just not sure when it'll go down.  It has to eventually, right?  The more you go up, the further you have to go down.  But I don't want this thread to become a discussion on when the market will tank; there are plenty of other forums for that.

Anyway, this is why we're slowing down our flips.  Unpredictability introduces risk.  I feel like the market is bailing out at least half of the flippers in our market right now; it has definitely done so for some of our own.  A lot of people think they're killing it; sometimes success is the worst teacher.

I don't know what flipping life is like outside of Seattle, but I feel like I'm taking a "grass is greener on the other side" approach.  I hear people complain that they get no appreciation in some areas, especially the Mid-West.  I'm wondering if this is actually a better?  It certainly makes things more predictable.  Sure, you might have longer days on market as well, but as long as you know your area and know what to expect, you can plan for it in your flip (i.e. longer loan terms).  So to me, it "seems" like a better area to flip, simply in terms of predictability and a better coverage of the downside.  I'm also assuming that if you don't get much appreciation, then you don't get much depreciation either when the market tanks.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Would love to hear thoughts from the BP collective!

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Investor · San Jose, CA, Bellevue, WA · Member since 2016 · 327 posts · 257 votes
9y

@Nghi Le; I think its overly simplistic to assume prices have to go down just because they've gone up. Here's a 40yr chart of national home values; we don't look to be too off from the norm. 

Given income growth and job growth in seattle (not caring about average income; strictly looking at the top 20% which I consider the 'home buyers'), along with lack of new construction coming online I think there is still room to grow. 

For reference, here's a graph showing inventory over the years...(notice 2017 at the very very bottom)

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  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    It only is going to take 6 months from buy to sell. Money made now is more important than money made later. If it trends down, you only have one to hold, then, as soon as it hits bottom, buy more. you can concern trends if you'll hold for 3 years or so
  • Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Ok pressed the post button too fast. Anyway, if you flip in no appreciation or cool market, once something goes down, it is going to go down everywhere. No appreciation is much more worse, with cheaper properties, and same amount of investments, then it dips, then your investment is easily wiped out, you cant rent because buyers are renting and waiting out until it hits bottom. In my opinion it's the same, but if i had a couple million, i'd invest it and keep it rolling, save some and get a balance for just in case scenarios, as in -- in case it dips, i could buy more at cheaper for leverage. I've always played that if I had 100k in stock market, i reserve 35k in case one stock dips, i'll use funds to buy more to average them.
  • Investor / Lender · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 730 votes
    9y

    @Manolo D. I used to think that flips weren't dependent on the market and only took 4-6 months.  But here, sometimes it takes 4-6 months just to get approved for a permit if the renovation is big enough.  And there's no such thing as a "cosmetic" flip in Seattle anymore; I haven't seen one of those deals for a while.  Now every rehab I've seen is $50k+ in renovation costs, even for a 1,000 sqft house.

    Planning for a 6-month flip is going to destroy you.  I'd recommend to always get a 9-12 month loan, even if you think the rehab is going to take 3 months.  I've had to experience a few refinances and it is painful and expensive.  In one case, it seemed like the lender was more motivated to foreclose and take the property than to work with my new lender in getting the refinance through...

    You mentioned "only have one to hold"; does that mean you're only flipping 1-2 at a time as well?

    Update:  Just saw your additional post.  Aren't you concerned that when the market takes a dip, so does lending?  I've heard so many stories of buyers with perfect or 800+ credit scores not being able to get a loan right after the crash.  Lending definitely becomes tighter, and it makes sense; who wants to loan on a depreciating asset in a downturn?  Even at rock bottom, they'll still wait a year or two to see if it really is rock bottom.

  • Investor · San Jose, CA, Bellevue, WA · Member since 2016 · 327 posts · 257 votes
    9y

    @Nghi Le; I think its overly simplistic to assume prices have to go down just because they've gone up. Here's a 40yr chart of national home values; we don't look to be too off from the norm. 

    Given income growth and job growth in seattle (not caring about average income; strictly looking at the top 20% which I consider the 'home buyers'), along with lack of new construction coming online I think there is still room to grow. 

    For reference, here's a graph showing inventory over the years...(notice 2017 at the very very bottom)

  • Ann Arbor, MI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 997 votes
    9y

    In order for there to be any substantial drop you need two things:  a substantial increase in available homes and a significant drop in available buyers.  This doesn't happen overnight.  The numbers and stats will be able to tell us when we're getting close.  DOM will increase, sold/list ratio will decrease, inventory will increase, prices will start to flatline, the number of price reductions jumps.  So long as we still have cautionary buyers, like you (it appears) we are still looking good. 

  • Investor · Kingston, WA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Over here in Kitsap county the ARV pricing has increased but still only about 50% of Seattle pricing. My flips are done in 6 months or less and renovation costs on cosmetic fixers have been average $30-50K. Inventory has dropped down a bunch but not to the Seattle levels. Banks are releasing their REOs at much higher pricing as expected, and their inventory is pretty junky.

    I've been a REO flipper for the past 10 years in Kitsap but recently have found great deals from my established network of RE agents who I've worked with over the years. Those relationships are now some of the best sources for off market deals.

    Bob

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