Spending every free minute fixing up this house
Accountant · Selden, NY · Member since 2014 · 28 posts · 17 votes
Spending every free minute fixing up this house
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Business Metrics Analyst · Cornelius, NC · Member since 2015 · 41 posts · 27 votes
10yJust like every hobby or business, it takes blood, sweat and tears to be successful. The struggle and grind creates character and you will learn how to do things better and faster with experience. Some parts of your rehab are cheaper and more efficient to have someone else do for you. (IE...roofing, siding, sheetrock...just examples)
Keep up the hard work, it does pay off! And single or not, when you find the right partner in life, they will join the struggle with you to make you both successful.
15 Replies
- Business Metrics Analyst · Cornelius, NC · Member since 2015 · 41 posts · 27 votes10y
Just like every hobby or business, it takes blood, sweat and tears to be successful. The struggle and grind creates character and you will learn how to do things better and faster with experience. Some parts of your rehab are cheaper and more efficient to have someone else do for you. (IE...roofing, siding, sheetrock...just examples)
Keep up the hard work, it does pay off! And single or not, when you find the right partner in life, they will join the struggle with you to make you both successful.
- Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2014 · 251 posts · 140 votes10y
@Matthew Jones I have never known any job to be cheaper if I hire it out. Now efficient that I can' agree on ;-)
- Business Metrics Analyst · Cornelius, NC · Member since 2015 · 41 posts · 27 votes10y
Originally posted by @Tariq B.:
@Matthew Jones I have never known any job to be cheaper if I hire it out. Now efficient that I can' agree on ;-)
Time is money my man! I guess I meant that it is "cheaper" because you dont have to spend 100 hours doing something that someone else can do in 10 hours. But I agree..efficiency is what you need to aim for.
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes10y
Short answer: yes. The beginning, unless you are already super capitalized, is hell. You are swapping sweat for dollars. As you get into more properties and have stronger cash reserves, you get to hire out the crap you would rather not do. Eventually, you can hire out nearly everything and still be profitable.
If you are flipping a house, in the interest of time it sometimes makes better sense to hire some/all of the projects out - but you have to have built those costs into your model before you bought the house. If you bought with yourself as the labor source, switching will destroy your profit margin.
Skyline Properties - Kalamazoo, MI · Member since 2014 · 224 posts · 129 votes10y
my experience exactly. You mean that's not what they promised at the seminars or on the infomercials in front of some Palm Springs mansion? lol. The people who can do rehabs without significant time investment do two things differently than me. One, they focus on houses that need mainly paint/carpet or mop & glow updating. Someone even said they only look at houses built after 1985. Ha. That would not work in my area where we have few new developments, half the national average foreclosure rate, and little turnover. If you are from a big city, sure. Every house I have owned so far needed extensive rehabbing.
Second, these people are using project managers or general contractors. Even if you hire work out, you still have to put in lots of hours going between/behind the contractors and doing the stuff they don't do. Nobody seems to have the big picture in mind when they work for me--all they see is their little task and the money. It irks me when people (like realtors and buyers, even contractors) assume you are sitting on a mound of easy cash because you do this stuff. One house I worked on figured out to about five bucks per hour for my time. I roll my eyes when some dude with a pressure washer thinks he is worth 300 bucks for 3 hours of work holding a hose.
- Investor · Juneau, AK · Member since 2015 · 980 posts · 741 votes10y
David, admire your work ethic (and wisdom already)... My wife is like "and tell then you are still married" after I mention I am into real estate investing and landlording to someone. I, too, worked myself to exhaustion, even to shaking and sickness a few times on my first fix ups. Good to think about work/life balance early on....
One of my key early realizations echoes all three posts above: find a few good, reliable, affordable (all tough--especially affordable and available) contractors if you will be in it long term (and hope to have some work life balance). It is not giving up-- but just working smarter.
This is what these people do (just like you know depreciation) they know saws, tiles, paint, wires, shingles and really skilled people move with speed and efficiency that it is hard to match for the DIY weekender (again, finding the right ones is half the battle, as a conscientious DIY can do better than some poor contractors)... The goo ones have the equipment and experience to do it right and take the load off you, and if you work out your own hourly rate (classic opportunity costs), plus delays, or screw ups and do-overs (if you are like me), plus stress (or injury!) you may not be saving much if any on the DIY.
Story came through for me may have seen when I saw the electrician (a lifelong master, also a marathon runner) string wires in minutes, moving like a cat through the garage, explaining to me the entire concept as he rewired and replaced all the receptacles in minutes... Or the grizzled guy with no teeth but lifelong carpenter replacing my windows with a care of a surgeon... Or the best flooring guy in town lay tile, carpet or wood...
Start your search on contractors (won't go on as that would be another forum on "finding the right contractors" and someone else can start that)..
- Accountant · Selden, NY · Member since 2014 · 28 posts · 17 votes10y
Thanks for all your comments. It's nice to know I'm not alone with this. The biggest thing I think I've learned from this first job is that I have to keep my hours and get more quotes. i was so quick to jump on each job. I'm not realizing how many hours I'm spending verse how much it would cost to have someone else do it for me. I have a background in construction, but I'm just nervous to go over budget. I guess I need to spend more time keeping track of these things.
- Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes10y
I've heard it called SWEAT EQUITY when you invest your time and effort into doing work on a property yourself that increases its value. We had a lot of that in the early years. The benefit was that we learned what it took to do the job and appreciation for skilled tradesmen and tradeswomen. We didn't need as much cash to get the job done if we did it ourselves and got it done the way we wanted it done, albeit slowly.
When working with contractors, consider this... TIME (Quick) - MONEY (Low Cost) - QUALITY (Good) Pick Two! Until you develop a great relationship with skilled tradespeople who do good work at a fair price and stay on the job to get it done for you, you will also need to factor in extra time for overseeing the work being done.
Once you are at a point when you realize your time and expertise are more valuable placed elsewhere, you may have an AHA! moment. As the owner of an investment property, you can not deduct the value of your labor as a business expense. If you hire the work done, the cost of the labor of others does become a business expense. That can make a difference to your bottom line and to the quality of your life!
- Contractor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 651 posts · 510 votes10y
@David Shulski Time is money (it feels funny saying that to an accountant)! The faster you get the house finished, the sooner you can sell it. You also have to factor in your monthly holding costs (taxes,interest on any loan, etc). I also think a house that has been professionally remodeled is more marketable than one that has been done by a non-professional. Which would you want to buy?
- Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @David Shulski:
Thanks for all your comments. It's nice to know I'm not alone with this. The biggest thing I think I've learned from this first job is that I have to keep my hours and get more quotes. i was so quick to jump on each job. I'm not realizing how many hours I'm spending verse how much it would cost to have someone else do it for me. I have a background in construction, but I'm just nervous to go over budget. I guess I need to spend more time keeping track of these things.
Also, keep track of your mileage and the cost of materials, for as you know, those are tax deductible, even though your labor isn't.
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 80 votes10y
I feel for you. I'm in the same pattern. Work at my time job 6a-2p, then on my flip till I feel like stopping for the day. Usually 6 or 8 at night. I DO have a girlfriend and like someone already mentioned, having a significant other who supports you is huge. I'm actually picking her up from her job today and she's helping me for a few hours! I plan on hiring out certain things though, roof (going on tomorow), the main sewer and water lines are getting done by a plumber but the branch lines are on me, sheetrock, and stucco. I'll do most everything else myself.
Keep it up! Hard work pays off, but damn, it's hard work!!
- Franklin Square, NY · Member since 2015 · 7 posts · 2 votes10y
Hey I'm looking to investing in Long Island too.
Like you, I'm sure I'll be doing a lot of work on my own at first though. I'm moderately handy and picking up skills as I go along like tiling and trying to figure out my limitations.
Like everyone else said though.. you may have to eat into some of that projected profit to get things done more timely and limit the holding cost.
- Good Luck
- Investor · Northeast, NE · Member since 2015 · 258 posts · 83 votes10y
"MY" problem is 'here' you can not hire a decent person to do anything for me. I am not overly picky but discuss HOW things are to be done,,,quality of work,,,EVERY time I hire someone to do something it is screwed up and not completed as asked to do. OR deliberately changed and said ,,,thats how I want to do it and thats good enough. If I have to redo all their screw ups I might as well do it myself and take the extra time. The last guy I paid TWICE to do as I asked,,,paid all his time plus all materials,,,and It still is all screwed up and requires MY repairs just to be serviceable. I hired him because it was a steep pitched roof and I am too old to spend much time,,,and what little time I did couldnt even keep my shoes on my feet.
My favorite saying is,,,if you cant do it yourself does it really need doing?? I guess I except such things as drywall texture, wiring hook up in box,hvac installs, AND you have to watch them like a hawk so they dont shortcut their jobs.
- Augusta, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes10y
You have my sympathy! We work on our houses and we also work full time...and we're getting old (some days I think each house adds 10 years to my life!). We're lucky to have an excellent HVAC/electrical/plumbing guy whose who is worth his weight in gold; he's diabetic and I'm giving him freebie nutrition lessons (I'm a registered dietitian in so-called real life) to keep him going!
I agree it's hard to find a decent person to do anything although heaven knows when I'm working on something outside in some of our neighborhoods I get a lot of guys asking if "I need help"; most of them are looking for beer money or they're the kind I'm guessing I'd have to carefully watch to make certain our tools don't grow legs and walk away with them.
After a while you learn a lot doing this sort of stuff. You also learn to be a cynic in what others project in costs. Recently had a leak in the living room ceiling in one of our recently empty houses. Roofing guy who I'd used before came out and walked the roof; was surprised I climbed up on the ladder with him; said I was a "brave woman" to do that. When you have grey hair you're supposed to be old and senile I guess.
Initially I asked only for a REPAIR of the issue. He commented "A shingle is up; that might be the...." and stopped. Next thing I knew he's walking the whole roof measuring and giving me an estimate of over 4K to replace the entire roof. NOT what I asked for. Next day I climbed up, found the shingle, did the repair in the area, fixed the ceiling damage. We've had several days of heavy rain since then and things seem to be holding.
I know it's exhausting working a full time job and then working on houses..and others tell me we're stupid to try this on our own. Unfortunately my partner is a structural engineer and he's not likely to turn much over to someone else. Just think of it as a learning experience; each project we do I learn a little bit more. I only wish I'd started this earlier in life. My dad was a janitor and real Mr Fix-It; built his own house from scratch when he lived in Canada as a young man. I only wished back when he was still alive I was smart enough to try to learn all he knew about building from him instead of thinking it was something "girls" didn't do.
Pass the Ben-Gay.
Gail - San Antonio, TX · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes10y
It's definitely hard especially in the beginning. Sometimes life changes don't allow you to do the things you were once able to do. It happened to me. What I ended up doing is hiring contractors to do the work for me. While costly, it has freed up my time and allowed me to work on things that are more productive and an effective use of my time. It's definitely a learning experience when interviewing and hiring contractors, but a skill worth having. Hang in there!
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