my flipping reality

my flipping reality

Kalamazoo, MI · Member since 2014 · 224 posts · 129 votes

I ordered a book lately on RE investing from Amazon, and the guru started out with the typical hype, selling the sizzle and not the steak.  You know, the whole, imagine yourself living the dream, not having to work, waking up on an island, etc.  As an exercise, he said write down what you imagine life like as an investor.  The previous reader, who never got past chapter one, left answers to this silly question.  I found it ironic and I sat there with my back aching in dirty clothes from a long day at the crazy house.  S/he wrote about sunrises at the beach front property, sipping lattes while enjoying a massage.  The victorious fantasy day ended with a five star restaurant where make believe investor would take the crew out for dinner.  lol.   

 Well, I know there are some very successful investors here with lots of resources and talent.  And for them, that may be realty.  My reality is quite different. 

I apologize right up front. This post will sound negative. If you want only the optimistic, pie-in-the sky view of RE flipping, skip this post. I'm optimistic. But please forgive me as I blow off steam.  You won't hear this on an infomercial. 

Here's a rundown of my week.  Call tons of contractors.  Almost none answer their phones or return calls.  That whole thing about three bids, check references, yeah, that's not happening.  I'm very lucky if I can get someone to come look and give me a price.  

You get the crazy prices.  Like one guy who said his price for trim was 8 bucks a foot.  haha.  Ok, I actually like doing trim work.  It's pretty easy.  I can trim in a door in about 10 mins.  That's only four cuts.  It's 7,7, and 3 feet.   I can put baseboards in a 12x12 room in under an hour.  About eight simple cuts.  So at this dude's rates,   in an hour  of not too tough work, I can earn 520 bucks.  Many expensive  lawyers would envy those numbers.  But I digress.  

I get some drywall put up in the basement.  It goes well.  But after the guys leave, a pipe bursts, and water floods my new ceiling--which has to have holes cut all in it so the pipe can be fixed.  The plumber fixes the pipe wrongly, and now the front hose hookup sticks out of the house by six inches and sprays water everywhere.  I notice it after he leaves.  Call him up and get the whole, can't get back until a week from next Friday routine.  So I spend the rest of the day cutting out the plumbing work I paid to have done, and just doing it myself to keep things moving.  

I go to test the brand new toilet, and it rocks back and forth.  Not really the plumbers fault.  The tile is slightly not level.  Didn't notice that when the tile guys were there.  They blame the floor.  Maybe I can shim it.  Who knows.  Another project I pay for and do myself.

Not to mention that when contractors show up, they want all the supplies right there.  I spend an hour or so each day running to the store to buy stuff at the last minute.  Some of them don't have tools.  Almost all of them need hand holding and in depth instructions.  

I changed the back porch light myself.  Simple enough.  I know how to do that.  The light works fine.  Then it doesn't work.  I take it down.  Maybe I didn't tighten enough.  Nope.  Is it the bulb?  Nope.  The wire is hot.  Light just won't work.   Something screwy with the electrical.  Still haven't figured it out.  

Insurance company wants broken garage window changed.  Window company can't do it for six weeks.  

Neighbor lets me borrow a chain so the guy I hired off of craigslist can use a truck to pull stumps  out.  This "landscaper" didn't even own a shovel.  Yet another stupid hire to my credit.  Another job I pay for and have to participate in.  Well, the chain snaps.  Now I owe the neighbor a chain.  And the stumps still need to come out.  It starts raining.  Hard.  Neighbor tells me his wife doesn't care for the color we painted.  Says there used to be an ant infestation in the house and the roof is cheap.  Apparently the previous owner was a pole dancing drug addict.  Hope I can sell the place before this guy gets to my new owners.  

Well, my lackey landscaper tells me that "he has done everything I asked him to do" and the "job is done".  As I'm standing there in shock, looking at a mound of rocks, a sidewalk dirty that hasn't been power washed, and piles of debris and dirt, I look at him expecting him to say "ha, just joking".  But he's serious.  He says he has worked hard (showed up at 3 before taking a break at 3:45), and has earned the agreed upon amount.  I just want him out of there.  Note to self, get even the most simple job in writing.  Short memories can be very convenient for workers.   So I call someone with power equipment to do things faster, making landscaper's job easier.  But he's ticked off nonetheless.  I don't understand people.  The longer I live the more I realize that the good Lord did not see fit to distribute the gift of intelligence equally.  

My brother tells me a friend of his is handy and can paint.  Now one would think that painting is fairly straight forward.  It's not.  Even though every jack of all trades will tel you that he/she paints.  I have yet to find someone who can paint to my standards, which are not high by the way--keep the color off of the ceiling and keep the lines straight.  

Well, this guy paints a whole day until I walk in and say, yuck, that's an awful color.  Turns out, the hardware store mixed three gallons property, and two badly.  Guy still gets paid for painting.   The next day, he picks up the paint and goes to work.  I walk in and say, hmm, looks different.  Turns out, he is cutting in with the paint from the bathroom and not the bedrooms.   This is a soon to be college graduate here.  And I'm color blind.  I give him some tape for the trim and ask him to tape and cut in lines.  He leaves.  I remove the tape.  Paint has dribbled all under the tape because he did not press the tape down like I asked him to.  Now I start over--myself.  Another job I pay for and do myself.  (notice a pattern here?)  

Wall texture guys do a good job and get it done quickly.  But I asked them to tape the trim.  Oh no, we sponge it off as we go.  Ok, as long as the trim stays clean.  It doesn't.  So I hire a high school kid to sand the trim.  He does half of it and gets bored, or gets a text, and stops.  Texture guys come back to finish the main level.  Decide to skip the skim coating of the ceiling like we agreed.  Now I can see lines.  Good at first, but then the quality drops.  If I can't get them back out there, guess who gets to fire up the texture gun.  You guessed it. me.   

Contractor tells me that my roof is shot and I need a new one.  Something about a lead boot.  But he wants the job.  Someone else says, no, it's fine.  I don't know.  Do I change it?  Who do you trust?  The furnace works.  But is 10 years old and looks terrible.   Buyers in my price range probably won't pay attention.  Do I change it?  Everybody wants white cabinets.  Maple ones are one sale?  Which ones?  What color for the walls?  Keep that color throughout?  What carpet?  Does it need to be frieze?  That doesn't wear well stairs.  I'm not an interior designer.  Who knows?  

Neighbor comes over and says that my tree is dropping something or other in her pool.  It's a huge tree.  She says her relative is a tree guy and will give me a good price.  I need some branches trimmed.  So I say ok, have him look at it.  Didn't budget for this.  Never hear from her and miss the free branch pick up day for my neighborhood.  Now I'll have to pay for brush removal.  Do I get the tree trimmed or skip it?  I started trimming a smaller tree myself and neighbors mom starts yelling at me.  "That won't work".  Um, ok.  You stay on your side of the fence.  

The back yard is not very private because it sits near the parking lot of an apartment complex.  Spend 1k for a privacy fence or no?  I am terrible at these decisions.  And very frugal with an ever shrinking budget.   

 I know I'm making lots of mistakes. But I also wonder how anybody could do this with a day job. I read of people quitting their job to dive in--that's crazy to me. Many days I wish I had my desk job back. Not really. Well, sometimes really. How people can do this without knowing how to do construction work is beyond me.  

It's not the project that's bad really.  It's the people I can't figure out how to manage, and deciding what to do/not to do.  I'm finding that hiring the right contractor, in the right order, with the right instructions is as important as finding the right deal on a house.  I am also finding that I am terrible at it.  This isn't my first rodeo, and I'll get this done. But just a real week in the life of a somewhat newbie.  Quick tip to the book writers out there, Brandon, J Scott, write a book on this subject.   

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Josh C.Pro Member
Property Manager · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
Haha. I can definitely relate. I use to hire those guys. Cheap equals bad 9 times out of 10. And it usually takes those nine times to realize it. There's tons I don't know, but here's some of what I do. Learn to say no. Guy doesn't have a shovel? Say no, buy one or take the bus home. Guy tiles your floor and blames the floor for un evenness? Say no, get out the 4 lb sledge and redo the floor if you want paid, that's the point of thinset. Guy says you have to pay me 50% up front and I've never used him before. Say hell no. He'll say he won't work unless he gets 50% up front, but trust me he's lying. Only exception here is companies with minimum 10 employees, and even then it needs to be very material intensive like HVAC or kitchens, not plumbing or electrical. If material is expensive go you store with him and buy yourself. Also, fire people faster, I recently broke this rule and a 5 week project turned into a 10 week one. Craigslist is a lot like roulette, so you'll need to make lots of bets to win, and bring lots of money because 95% of the time you lose. Good luck out there. Contractor world is the Wild West, especially CL guys. That's why I became a licensed bonded GC.
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  • Josh C.Pro Member
    Property Manager · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Haha. I can definitely relate. I use to hire those guys. Cheap equals bad 9 times out of 10. And it usually takes those nine times to realize it. There's tons I don't know, but here's some of what I do. Learn to say no. Guy doesn't have a shovel? Say no, buy one or take the bus home. Guy tiles your floor and blames the floor for un evenness? Say no, get out the 4 lb sledge and redo the floor if you want paid, that's the point of thinset. Guy says you have to pay me 50% up front and I've never used him before. Say hell no. He'll say he won't work unless he gets 50% up front, but trust me he's lying. Only exception here is companies with minimum 10 employees, and even then it needs to be very material intensive like HVAC or kitchens, not plumbing or electrical. If material is expensive go you store with him and buy yourself. Also, fire people faster, I recently broke this rule and a 5 week project turned into a 10 week one. Craigslist is a lot like roulette, so you'll need to make lots of bets to win, and bring lots of money because 95% of the time you lose. Good luck out there. Contractor world is the Wild West, especially CL guys. That's why I became a licensed bonded GC.
  • Real Estate Investor · Lansdowne, PA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 656 votes
    10y

    Thanks so much for sharing the REALITY madness  and learned lessons from the flip side of things......

    Are you still on budget at this point? Can we get a few pics?

    Kudos,

    Mary 

  • Blue Springs, MO · Member since 2015 · 481 posts · 313 votes
    10y

    All I can say is, for the few times I've hired a contractor to work on my own personal residence (I'm new to this)... I feel your pain.

    For the "detailed instructions" thing, there's a demonstration you can do.  It works best with a small handful of other people, like 4 to 8 or so, who are all there in the same room.

    You are the PB&J sandwich contractor.  Everybody else gets a piece of paper (or an email or instant message or whatever) that says, approximately, "Write directions that explain to someone else how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.  Assume that they have the following items: one loaf of bread, one jar of peanut butter, one jar of jelly, and one butter knife."  They each write up their own set of directions, and then hand them or send them to the PB&J contractor.  The contractor then reads each set of directions and follows them.  Exactly.  If a particular step doesn't give specifics, do the weirdest thing you can think of that still meets "the letter of the law".

    If it just says "put peanut butter on bread", set the jar of peanut butter on top of the loaf of bread.  If it says "open bread wrapper", tear the wrapper open with your hands.  If it says "put knife into peanut butter", put the handle end in.  If the peanut butter or jelly jar is brand new, and has an inner seal under the plastic lid, and the directions don't mention the seal, either stab the knife through the seal, or just tap the end of the knife against the seal and look confused.  If you really want to throw them off, get an unsliced loaf of bread from the supermarket, and apply their directions exactly.

    Once you've gone through a couple of the sets of directions, you will find that a full set of directions, that actually produces a normal PB&J sandwich, takes about three or four pages when typed and printed out.  This is a good reference for what you have to supply when specifying jobs to other people.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Pawling, NY · Member since 2015 · 42 posts · 8 votes
    10y

    A good start is homeadvisor and angieslist imo.

    If the plumbers repair failed I would ask him to reimburse for damage or give you a credit for future work otherwise file a complaint to warn others of shoddy work. There is no reason a pipe should burst unless it freezes... please upload a pic of his work and the joint that failed.

    Toilet issue... toilet shouldnt rock at all and will loosen the seal and start to leak potentially damaging tile/subfloor. The plumber should set the toilet in a base of plaster of paris. The plaster dries underneath the toilet comforming to the bottom of toilet and floor making it rock solid.

    If you are going to provide supplies you should have them give you a material list.

    Light not working but worked before... ok so it must be the new light... dont just go buy hot not hot. Get a cheap Digital Multi Meter set to volts ac and check light socket from center prong to outer threads. If 120v then its a bulb, if you get nothing test from center prong to metal electrical box if you get 120v then its a bad neutral.

    Paint tape issue... using good tape blue or green or masking tape?

    Upload a pic of roof.

    10 year old furnace should be ok if it works... replacing it would depend on the level of renovation you are doing.

    You are stuck with colors and cabinet material? If you dont have an eye for these things get someone who does. Spending 10k in a kitchen to have mismatched and ugly is a waste. Turn on HGTV copy color shcemes from their or home improvement sites look at builders websites check out the gallery copy the designs and themes.

    Carpet... if its a flip do whats cost effective looks best. If its a rental go with whats durable and look good.

    Fence... I dont know see how your budget is when your done with everything else.

    It seems you bit off more than you can chew + tried to save money hiring bad contractors. Don't get me wrong cheap isn't always bad but you need to find good people. Hiring a General Contractor will alleviate most of your issues because he will do the planning and hand holding.  Look at the bright side!  You are in the trenches, getting your hands dirty, learning the ins and outs that will be very valuable in your future investments.

    Good Luck!

  • Investor · Murphy, TX · Member since 2011 · 189 posts · 86 votes
    10y

    Awesome post!! Excellent summary of the day to day mental and emotional roller coaster that goes along with flipping a house. EVERYONE wants to flip a house - but I doubt many of us fully understand all that is involved. I know I didn't. I hope my partner (also my GC) survives our first one. 

  • Investor · Jonesboro, AR · Member since 2015 · 241 posts · 132 votes
    10y
    Are you trying to steal my identity ha ha. Good post!
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I ordered a book lately on RE investing from Amazon, and the guru started out with the typical hype, selling the sizzle and not the steak.  You know, the whole, imagine yourself living the dream, not having to work, waking up on an island, etc.  

    ....

    Quick tip to the book writers out there, Brandon, J Scott, write a book on this subject.   

    Clearly that wasn't my book you bought!!!  :-)

    Seriously though, it definitely sounds like you were doing some things that brought a lot of that pain on yourself:

    - Not having detailed contracts in place

    - Paying for too much work upfront

    - Not enough oversight/supervision

    - Hiring the wrong types of contractors

    - Paying by the hour

    - Etc...

    And I actually talk about all of those things in my book...so I *have* written a book on the topic!  And many, many BP blog posts, articles and forum posts...

  • Investor · Dyersburg, TN · Member since 2015 · 320 posts · 100 votes
    10y

    Ditto to what JScott Said...Most people and I'm not saying you think flipping is a lot like a TV Show... Owner shows up screams at everyone and goes on their way.  That will work with an experienced crew, but when you are doing this without that luxury, you have to be there.  Pay when the job is done, and I only pay when it is done right!  You don't have tools, then you are not working at my property.  People who show up to work bring their tools.  You are learning though and that is what counts.  Build your team and it will pay dividends...

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