Flipper/Rehabber · San Francisco · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 49 votes
I'm looking for anyone with some experiences on intensive water damage to properties... I've already talked to my contractor and I think we've properly accounted for costs, but I don't want to end up in a very bad situation here...
The home was built in 1955, 1400 sqft, and has an almost flat roof, which is completely worn out. The center of the roof is actually bowed inwards from the weight of a sizable amount of standing water, and the home has been vacant for upwards of 3 years. The interior ceilings are completely ruined and heavily stained from the water damage
IF we take this on, we're going to replace the framing and trusses and have an engineer put a pitch on the home to increase ARV. I'm concerned that the weight and water may have damaged the structure of the home resulting in MASSIVE costs.
Our current cost estimates include a rework of everything from the ceiling up (10-15K)... How bad could this get?
Engineer · Peachtree City, GA · Member since 2015 · 6 posts · 2 votes
11y
HI Chris
After doing this sort of work for 32 yrs FL code has hight restrictions if you wish to fit an
A frame roof check with building officials first, and that would be the expensive way plus you still have insightfully ceilings. the roof beams are undersized or to wide on center i think the best thing to do is lightly jack up the old beams and sister it with new ones to hold it,s shape if the sag is over 2" you will need LVL,s as for the roof remove old layers
and fit ISO foam board and layer it higher on center so you have a peak in-turn water flows off most off all you don,t have snow loads in FL to worry about
as for wood rot check the sill plates first or have a professional put hands on to advise hope i helped you
Real Estate Investor · Saint Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 951 votes
11y
You're not even close on the costs. It will probably cost at least $10k just to tear off and replace what's there with another completely flat roof.....more if there is a lot of wood to replace. The last roof I did that had an active leak cost me $2k in wood work alone, I ended up replacing 20 sheets of plywood and 25 joists. I would expect this would cost at least double what you're budgeting....replacing trusses isn't going to be cheap and you'll probably pay thousands just for the engineer's design and drawings.
Flipper/Rehabber · San Francisco · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 49 votes
11y
2 different estimates on a straight replacement were approx 6-7k, but sounds like I definitely have some more detailed homework to do, thanks for the feedback. Ill follow up with a more detailed estimate when I receive it.
Engineer · Peachtree City, GA · Member since 2015 · 6 posts · 2 votes
11y
HI Chris
After doing this sort of work for 32 yrs FL code has hight restrictions if you wish to fit an
A frame roof check with building officials first, and that would be the expensive way plus you still have insightfully ceilings. the roof beams are undersized or to wide on center i think the best thing to do is lightly jack up the old beams and sister it with new ones to hold it,s shape if the sag is over 2" you will need LVL,s as for the roof remove old layers
and fit ISO foam board and layer it higher on center so you have a peak in-turn water flows off most off all you don,t have snow loads in FL to worry about
as for wood rot check the sill plates first or have a professional put hands on to advise hope i helped you
Contractor · Rockville, MD · Member since 2014 · 423 posts · 135 votes
11y
Agreed on price being too low. For reference, my folks live in a 2,000 sq ft home and are paying around $11k for a straight re-roof (new plywood) with no structural modifications. Prices may differ slightly in your market but I don't think you're even in the same ballpark.
Flipper/Rehabber · San Francisco · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 49 votes
11y
So we checked it out again today after about 5 days of rain, and the ceilings are much worse than they were days ago. Contractor still seems to be pretty confident about a 12-16k estimate, still waiting on the official bid. I will go get a second opinion, but here is where I figured the numbers, conservatively. Please let me know where I'm off. Note that I factor in the ceiling sheetrock, insulation, and paint in a separate estimate.
Truss package = $3000
Decking/sheathing $30/sheet x 45 boards = $1500
Crane rental $450/day x 2 days = $900
Engineer drawings = $1800
Permit = $2500
shingles/labor = $6,000
Dumpster= $300
Total $17,000
It's hard to pinpoint this huge disconnect in where his estimate is coming from compared to all of your inputs, which is very discerning for a first flip!
So we checked it out again today after about 5 days of rain, and the ceilings are much worse than they were days ago. Contractor still seems to be pretty confident about a 12-16k estimate, still waiting on the official bid. I will go get a second opinion, but here is where I figured the numbers, conservatively. Please let me know where I'm off. Note that I factor in the ceiling sheetrock, insulation, and paint in a separate estimate.
Truss package = $3000
Decking/sheathing $30/sheet x 45 boards = $1500
Crane rental $450/day x 2 days = $900
Engineer drawings = $1800
Permit = $2500
shingles/labor = $6,000
Dumpster= $300
Total $17,000
It's hard to pinpoint this huge disconnect in where his estimate is coming from compared to all of your inputs, which is very discerning for a first flip!
First, my original assumption was that the $10-15K included interior ceiling work as well (sheetrock, insulation, paint, electrical, etc). For just the exterior work, $15K doesn't seem impossible in an area where labor prices are low.
This is how I'd check the math:
You indicated about 1450 sf in sheathing, which means it's a very small house (roof about 14 squares). Based on that, it takes about 10 seconds to see that everything but the "shingles/labor" seems pretty much in line with what I'd expect.
Now, as for the "shingles/labor," for a 14 square roof, you're probably looking at $1600-1800 in roofing materials, $600-800 in demo/disposal, $1000-1500 to install new roof, and $1000-1500 to install the new trusses. Add in the management fee for someone overseeing the job, and $6000 could be abound right for that.
Again, this would be in a lower priced area (this is what I'd expect in Atlanta, for example)...
Real Estate Investor · Madison Heights, MI · Member since 2014 · 693 posts · 216 votes
11y
you got to have mold in that house. Sitting empty for that long with all that water damge. Also the floors have to be ruined. A bad roof does so much damage to everything not just what you see when you look up.
Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y
@Christopher Morin Lumber supply company can provide an engineer if you have good as-built drawings. I'd bring it to them and get a good materials estimate. Keep confirming with the contractors that you're on track.
Reconfirm that this is a deal worth the risk given the risk of the project.
I bid (and lost) on a very similar house last week. Please continue to post your experience and numbers. I'd love to hear how it turns out.
Flipper/Rehabber · San Francisco · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 49 votes
11y
Alright so here's an update:
My go-to GC is quoting me 16,500 total (including the engineer). Another GC quoted me for 17,500 to include all design/permits/labor/tearout/materials for design/build a gable roof w/ 4x12 pitch w/ 24 square of asphalt shingles.
The last quote I got was from developer/builders who work these all the time... they expressed extreme concern about the structure being able to hold the new roof. The home is partial off-grade, partial slab, and they gave an informal quote of $25,000 - $35,000!!! That's kind of a big difference...
In order to figure out exact costs, I brought an engineer to the home and talked with him about it. He is having me dig out and measure the footings to both the main home and addition, and tear out the ceiling along exterior walls and take pictures of the ceiling-to-frame attachment, in order to ensure the home can support the weight of a new roof. If we go with the pitched roof, the engineer's flat rate fee to provide all drawings and permit-required inspections is $1,450 on this 1400 sqft home (regardless of the type of roof we put on it) That price is already included in the above estimates.
We tentatively close next Wednesday, May 13th... hopefully I don't have to back out, but 25-35k is not an acceptable number, so I've got some more digging to do (literally!)
Flipper/Rehabber · San Francisco · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 49 votes
11y
Well I dug the footings and they aren't even close to thick enough... 6 inches and 9 inches, and the engineer says they should be able double that in order to support the extra weight. Also, there is no top plate to attach trusses/rafters to, so rather than fix those problems, I'm going to just go with the flat roof option. It'll hurt the arv, but the asthetic gain is not worth the cost. We closed on wednesday and hopefully start this week.
Flipper/Rehabber · San Francisco · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 49 votes
10y
Okay! It's obviously been awhile, and we're not quite done, but I'm going to resurrect this post anyway and provide an update. We ended up replacing the flat roof with another flat roof. $7500 for the new flat roof, guy was recommended by my general contractor. Noteworthy events that happened...
1) The brand new roof STILL had pooled water on it! A lot of it. Apparently, this is normal, and an official home inspector said "If it was my home, I wouldn't worry about it." Okay.
2) It leaked. Less than 1 month in, water seeped into the kitchen and water damaged my brand new sheetrock ceilings. The roofer came back out and fixed it the leak, but did a mediocre repair job on my ceilings. I had to fix it myself. Grrrr...
3) The roofer replaced some rotted boards and didn't put the soffit/fasia trim back up. He then downplayed how much it would be to repair the soffit. After the fact, I had to hire a company to custom mold them on this particular style to match the rest of the home. 400 in extra costs because nowhere in my contract did I spell out anything like "return any alterations to previous condition." Lesson learned: Every contractor will sign a contract with my generalized terms to protect myself.
4) My contractor wouldn't give me a warrantee. Dodged my phone calls after I paid him and wouldn't give it to me. Months later, I threaten to sue him, and then he gave me a 5 year warrantee. We verbally agreed on 10 before starting. But he's an English second language and insists I misheard him. Note to self: everything in writing, always. Don't pay em till the paperwork is done.
5) Speaking of paperwork, the permit never closed out. The roofer didn't follow through, and the final inspection by the county never happened. And of course I'm in the dark. So we entered closing last week... Bam! Permit expired. The county wont let the homeowner schedule it, it has to be the license holder. And since he's a mess, we've gone though 2 scheduled inspections trying to get this thing closed out. Almost there...
6) My GC was a godsend. When the roofer wouldn't answer my calls or things went wrong, my GC was fierce in protecting his reputation (he had recommended the roofer) by lighting a fire under his ***. I can't say enough good things about my GC. (if you're in the FL panhandle, I'm happy to recommend)
Half of me thinks I should still sue my roofer on the premise; to fix everything, all costs that I incurred, and give me a proper warrantee. I still might if he costs me this sale. Or if the inspection doesn't pass. Or if a calm breeze stirs me the wrong way.
Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
I don't believe the roofer's or inspectors findings. You ordered a flat roof, not a pond. 10/25 or 10/30 is common warranty, any reputable roofer will issue. Probably got what you paid for. We repaired a few flat roof, no leaks whatsoever. We have a standing policy, you damage it, you repair it. it will remain in my punchlist and I can't sign any check unless i am satisfied is what i tell my subs.
Flipper/Rehabber · San Francisco · Member since 2014 · 124 posts · 49 votes
10y
Well, the roof failed the county inspection to close out the permit (of course it did) and we're < 2 weeks from closing. The buyer's home inspector also highlighted about 2 dozen deficient areas where the roofer performed substandard work.
In a more positive light, he seems like he's working to fix it fast, now that his license is on the line.
I think you're right, I suppose I did get what I paid for @Manolo D. what a nightmare this is turning out to be.
Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
@Christopher Morin That is why I charge a fortune for roof jobs, I only failed once out of 9 jobs, small leak on the fascia, lesson learned, put buffer in case things hit the fan. Roofing is a tricky trade, one of the most expensive worker's comp also, if not the most. I do not believe that his license is on the line -- leaks, yes, workmanship related to other things, not so --, he only need to pass county/city inspection, he is not bound to do the checklist/punchlist of a private inspector (the inspector might be too picky and out of line). Sorry to hear about your situation, good luck.
Destin, FL · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 1 vote
10y
You all have gone through a lot on your first flip! Kudos to you though for seeing this through. Most importantly, this will surely provide a foundation for lots of lessons learned for future flips. Best of luck and keep us posted!