Weird Plumber- Is this a ripoff?

Question

Hi All-

I am rehabbing an old property needing some plumbing work. Initially, plumbing work was carried out without a permit because it was thought that none was needed, however, a stop work order came in play and everything needed to be permitted.

The plumber raised his price from $2500 to $4500 and would not budge. I am out of state investor, have used this plumber before and he's done a good job as a master plumber. His only explanation was that he now has to do things differently, I agreed because its costing me a lot of money and I am short on time to shop around etc..

He now wants to charge $750 to replace the attached cast iron pipe which is supposed to be leaking as per the plumber. I needed some time to think about this and he is going nuts wanting the full payment up front immediately so he can change this pipe as it was not part of original order.

He wants the job site to himself for five days because he doesn't want any other worker to interrupt him etc because he needed the space to do what he needs to do. This caused a lot of rift with the GC but we accommodated the plumber because it is much more of a hassle to delay things by getting someone else to pull permits at this late stage.

Is it normal for the plumber to demand to have the job site to himself? Does the cost of 750 to replace the attached pipes seem reasonable.

Scott Mac · Answer

You might want think about asking how much to replace all of the cast iron pipe in the house.It's all the same age and if you have rot through in one area next month you may have it in another, and so on and so on.Maybe he can make a deal on a full replacement, that MIGHT save you money over 10 years or so, vs so many plumber callbacks for leaks.Good Luck!

Dan H. · Answer

I suspect it varies by jurisdiction. I have properties in 3 jurisdictions that all allow customer to pull the permit including on investment properties. My jurisdictions allows owner applied permit for investment properties, but for MF (not SFH investment) there is a disclosing requirement at time of sale for owner completed work in at least one of the jurisdictions. I was going to attach a plumbing bill from last week that indicated customer to pull permit, but I would have needed to redact info (email, phone number) so it was more work than I desired. The plumbers assume that the customer is doing the permit (or, more likely, assuming customer will not get the permit and the work will be unpermitted) and if you want otherwise you need to let the plumber know at the time of quote. By the way in my jurisdictions I have never heard of the jurisdiction pursue a plumbing fix (versus new plumbing) for no permit. For example the city recently pulled all permits for one of my units. The unit is from the early 1950s. There was not a single permit for water heater replacement but the jurisdiction did not mention it. They know the water heater has been replaced (quite a few times) and there should be permits for new water heaters. They choose not to enforce not having that work permitted even though by rule it requires a permit In at least two of my jurisdictions, the only way you will get the gas turned back on after a gas leak is by having a permit and the inspection passing a pressure test. That seems reasonable to me even though it means gas ends up being off for days for any gas leak. Knowing what work will have permits enforced and what work will not is tribal knowledge. Exterior new outlets or new gas lines in at least one of my jurisdictions need permits or you will get a code violation if the jurisdiction finds out about it. You can assume how I know. I am not a big fan of tribal knowledge and would prefer the jurisdiction to not require permits for items that they do not enforce not having the permit.

Eliott Elias · Answer

Big time ripoff

Kevin Sobilo · Answer

@Jacob Beg, to me that is a HUGE and unjustified price difference. A few things first. The plumber knew permits were required. So, unless your contract with him stated that no permits would be pulled thats on him. Also, the fact that you have a contract for the work to be done means to me that THE PRICE IS THE PRICE! If the original contract didn't specify permits, maybe YOU pay for the cost of the actual permit/inspections, but no increase for the work being done. Now onto the pipes. Replacing cast iron pipe is cheap and easy. It's heavy but you can rip it out pretty easy because you can break it with a sledge hammer into pieces you can haul out and a local scrapper will haul it away free. Putting in new PVC drain pipes is cheap and easy once that is removed. So, that is not an expensive job. It doesn't even look like that much pipe and likely something a technician would do with the plumber supervising and checking the work. So, just a guess but I would expect to pay $250-300 in my market including materials because I think its maybe a half days work for a technician.

Nathan Gesner · Answer

It seems expensive to me. I'm also concerned that he didn't know a permit was needed.If your GC is worth his weight in salt, he should be able to cross-check this for validity. I would also recommend a second opinion from another plumber, but it sounds like your time limitations may prevent that.

Kevin Sobilo · Answer

@Dan Heuschele, in my experience the homeowner can only pull a permit if the homeowner is doing the work because the permitting process requires the plumbers information such as their proof of insurance, etc. Also, a homeowner cannot pull a permit at all unless its their primary residence. So, for investment properties that isn't even on the table. What I have seen is that the contract is priced where the permits are an added cost on top of the contracted price for the work and materials. This way the plumber doesn't have to research the permit costs for each municipality before making bids.

Dan H. · Answer

plumbers in my market charge an outrageous amount and it is not unusual for them to specify owner responsibility to obtain permit. Note this does not imply the quality of work is any different. I should be able to go to the jurisdiction permit office with the application, plans (if required), photos (if helpful) and pay the fee and get scheduled for inspection. A MD has a plumbing issue and calls a licensed plumber. The licensed plumber states that it will be $2.5K to fix the plumbing issue. The doctor needs the plumbing issue fixed and agrees to the price. The plumber fixes the issue in 1 hour and provides the bill to the MD. The MD is shocked that the plumber is charging $2.5K for an hour of work and tells the plumber that he (the MD) does not charge that much. The plumber tells the MD that he also did not charge that much when he was a doctor. JK.Plumbers are expensive. If you have a good track record with this plumber there is a good chance that what he is charging is fair for your market.Good luck

Henry T. · Answer

Just the visible pipe? I'd have that sucker cut out and replaced with abs and done in 15 minutes. If you're going to replace toilet flange and sink areas that's different.

Tom Fidrych · Answer

$750 may not be out of line as it's tough work to remove cast iron and the replacement materials have gone up quite a bit in the past 2 years. As Scott Mac mentioned, now may be the time to replace all the cast iron if your in it for the long haul.

Tarl Yarber · Answer

Managing subs can sometimes be like dealing with toddlers, and toddlers play best when they are alone. Its not uncommon for a trade to want the project to themselves for a few days so they can get in, get their work done, and get out without having to deal with a bunch of other people getting in their way. Something we did years ago was start making sure our trades became associated with our GC's so that they can talk and work things out together without us in the middle. Too late for you on this one, but its worth making an intro at somepoint.For the $750, it depends on many factors. It sounds like based on your writing, that you are sort of stuck with this now and just need to deal with what is and move on. These experiences are what make us better for the next deal.