Rehab and Flip: Just can't get my 1st deal

Rehab and Flip: Just can't get my 1st deal

Member since 2021 · 92 posts · 51 votes

About me: 47, family, did well in my small-business life for 20+ years, up until about 2019...grrrrrr. Luckily have a decent nest egg, barring major depression scenarios, I think I'll be 'ok' with a a few lifestyle cutbacks and I haven't worked for 2 years now.       Rehab experience: NONE.  I currently live in suburban Philly. 

I own (2)TH's Metro Atlanta for 1.5 years.     I own (1) TH in Northern Virginia for 8 years.  Both under property management - the worst thing that's happened so far was (1) late payment, and I got $25 late fee so the diner breakfast  tasted good that day:)

Advisors: NoVA Prop Manager -same for 8 years, good relationship.   In Atlanta - happy with my broker and property manager - he is the SON of my Virginia guy....and thus far I'm pleased.   In Metro Atlanta - I've made about 7 offers in the last 5 months --  no dice. On 1 - I was actually $5,000 higher on my offer (240k house)....but the other guy waived any due diligence so lost that one.  My deal with Atlanta Broker is that he will oversee the whole rehab, he has the contractors and subs -- - and yes, he's done these before with his Dad.  In return - I use him as my agent on my atlanta properties, in addition - use him for Property Management.  I trust the relationship so far because: MANY times I send him a listing and he'll disqualify it with good explanation. It would be easy for him to say 'write it up' and collect his 3%....but when he rejects MOST of the listings I send - I feel he is also wants me to do well.  He's not a full time rehab realtor -- but he does do some.

I realize, this is not Cable TV where it's all easy and big money is made.   

Frankly -I'd LOVE to average 1 flip a year.   2 would be absolutely amazing  - - vis a vis my financial plan for hopefully 'making it' financially. The flips would be extra --  but a very welcomed plus.    A few thoughts and questions:

1.)Is it just plain the wrong time? Odds are values drop 6 months from now. Sellers seem to still want high prices. BUT I'm getting beat out so someone is paying the higher price....does that mean they are dumb? OR does that mean perhaps they are contractors, and have expertise and cost savings that I just don't have?

Is it prudent to just say "I'm waiting 6-7 months. Sadly, rates will be higher, prices lower, some jobs will be lost, and more homes might go to crap and be listed for sale as fixer uppers..."

2.)I chose ATL because I feel I have a trusted counselor there.  Also, I like homes under $250k.  If I'm gonna do cash deals....that's manageable.

3.)I am tempted to start in my own backyard - suburban Philly albeit units cost more. I'm wondering - yes, I have NO experience. But if I get the right software OR the right Realtor to give me honest comps....and I buy a home....I would do so fully aware I can't do the work myself. At that point....I wonder - why can't I see that the paint sucks, the hardwood floors need finishing, the bath and kitchen must be gutted, etc.....and get the appropriate subs to do it knowing full well one must stay on them and there will be fits and starts and late jobs, and change orders, etc.  Will I pay more? Yes. But even if I make a below average profit - I'd be a happy camper.    I

4.)If I decide to do one and go it alone - does it make sense to have a Real Estate Broker License - theoretically i'd save 2-3% on buy commission and 2-3% potentially on sale commission - --that assumes market is decent and I don't need a talented agent. If market sucks - well, then I'd need an experienced person

Time: I have plenty. Most of my days are spent following stocks, playing with retirement calculators, doing stuff with kids, and playing more poker at the casino than I care to admit.

I refuse to give up.  I feel that I know what I DON'T know.  I feel I have CASH to do deals - I think that is an asset.  I've never flipped a house - but in my 20 year history there was tons of buying and selling -- - and I knew all that time that I make my profit when I BUY the merchandise - not when I sell it and I think that lesson carries on into houses .

Geez, all I'm trying to do - is my first rehab.

Hoping some of you will chime in. 

Questions, comments, insults - all are welcome. 

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
4y

I know people who for 10 years now keep saying prices are going to be lower in 6 months. Search the forums. All of them were as sure as you are, and for the same exact reasons.

See this reply in the discussion

16 Replies

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  • Real Estate Agent · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2022 · 58 posts · 40 votes
    4y

    Hey Mel! Your post is hilarious and very informative at the same time, well done. 

    As you and most investors here know there is always money to be made somewhere in the market. Which of course is a big reason why you are finding the offers not being accepted (Which i'm positive you already know). 

    1-2 flips per year is a great goal to have and honestly I think finding those deals locally may be much easier than you think. I work with a lot of out of town and local investors who all have one thing in common. They agree that everybody sleeps easier at night if they could see the property before buying. A lot of my buyers do not, but that as you very well know comes with trusted council.

    Don't give up on your goals! I know I can also be of some assistance personally since I specialize in the Philly, Delco and Montco area. Lets connect soon and see if we can get you back on track!

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    4y

    I know people who for 10 years now keep saying prices are going to be lower in 6 months. Search the forums. All of them were as sure as you are, and for the same exact reasons.

  • Real Estate Agent · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Mel Park, to me it sounds like you're 90% there; you have a resourceful real estate agent, reliable contractors, communicative property management, cash on hand, etc. Honestly, from what I've heard, I think you just need to get more aggressive with your offers. I would not advise waiting for the market to "correct." Opportunities hit the market all the time, and with so many others sitting on the sidelines, now is the time to take action in my opinion. That being said, ATL has indeed been super competitive these past years. Chances are those folks that are beating you out know what they're doing, some might be amateurs, but I doubt it. As you mentioned, purchasing in all cash gives you the advantage over others who are financing the deal via hard money. Again, I think this circles back to not being aggressive enough when underwriting the deal. If you know you have a solid deal in front of you, with confidence, it's time to waive DD. Moreover, I suggest you start networking with wholesalers to source deals. Your agent can still write up the offer, I do it all the time. FYI my successful clients make about 5-7 offers a month just so you're aware. Hope this makes sense and helps! 

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    4y

    @Mel Park 

    1) Never the wrong time - if you buy at the right price. Who cares who/why your offers are beat. Don't compete with the "Jone's", just do your own thing based upon your numbers.

    2) ok

    3) It'll be easier to get hands-on experience in your backyard, unless you can affor to relocate to Atlanta for 4-6 months. Why not look for a flipper that needs funds and partner on the first 1-2, so you can learn the business? Just DO NOT trust anyone blindly! You buy the property, they do the work, you pay for work only when complete, split the profits when sells.

    4) Don't worry about broker license until you actually flip 1-2 and confirm YOU can make money at it.

    You could also be a private lender to flippers and not have to worry about getting screwed by contractors.

  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Mel Park:

    About me: 47, family, did well in my small-business life for 20+ years, up until about 2019...grrrrrr. Luckily have a decent nest egg, barring major depression scenarios, I think I'll be 'ok' with a a few lifestyle cutbacks and I haven't worked for 2 years now.       Rehab experience: NONE.  I currently live in suburban Philly. 

    I own (2)TH's Metro Atlanta for 1.5 years.     I own (1) TH in Northern Virginia for 8 years.  Both under property management - the worst thing that's happened so far was (1) late payment, and I got $25 late fee so the diner breakfast  tasted good that day:)

    Advisors: NoVA Prop Manager -same for 8 years, good relationship.   In Atlanta - happy with my broker and property manager - he is the SON of my Virginia guy....and thus far I'm pleased.   In Metro Atlanta - I've made about 7 offers in the last 5 months --  no dice. On 1 - I was actually $5,000 higher on my offer (240k house)....but the other guy waived any due diligence so lost that one.  My deal with Atlanta Broker is that he will oversee the whole rehab, he has the contractors and subs -- - and yes, he's done these before with his Dad.  In return - I use him as my agent on my atlanta properties, in addition - use him for Property Management.  I trust the relationship so far because: MANY times I send him a listing and he'll disqualify it with good explanation. It would be easy for him to say 'write it up' and collect his 3%....but when he rejects MOST of the listings I send - I feel he is also wants me to do well.  He's not a full time rehab realtor -- but he does do some.

    I realize, this is not Cable TV where it's all easy and big money is made.   

    Frankly -I'd LOVE to average 1 flip a year.   2 would be absolutely amazing  - - vis a vis my financial plan for hopefully 'making it' financially. The flips would be extra --  but a very welcomed plus.    A few thoughts and questions:

    1.)Is it just plain the wrong time? Odds are values drop 6 months from now. Sellers seem to still want high prices. BUT I'm getting beat out so someone is paying the higher price....does that mean they are dumb? OR does that mean perhaps they are contractors, and have expertise and cost savings that I just don't have?

    Is it prudent to just say "I'm waiting 6-7 months. Sadly, rates will be higher, prices lower, some jobs will be lost, and more homes might go to crap and be listed for sale as fixer uppers..."

    2.)I chose ATL because I feel I have a trusted counselor there.  Also, I like homes under $250k.  If I'm gonna do cash deals....that's manageable.

    3.)I am tempted to start in my own backyard - suburban Philly albeit units cost more. I'm wondering - yes, I have NO experience. But if I get the right software OR the right Realtor to give me honest comps....and I buy a home....I would do so fully aware I can't do the work myself. At that point....I wonder - why can't I see that the paint sucks, the hardwood floors need finishing, the bath and kitchen must be gutted, etc.....and get the appropriate subs to do it knowing full well one must stay on them and there will be fits and starts and late jobs, and change orders, etc.  Will I pay more? Yes. But even if I make a below average profit - I'd be a happy camper.    I

    4.)If I decide to do one and go it alone - does it make sense to have a Real Estate Broker License - theoretically i'd save 2-3% on buy commission and 2-3% potentially on sale commission - --that assumes market is decent and I don't need a talented agent. If market sucks - well, then I'd need an experienced person

    Time: I have plenty. Most of my days are spent following stocks, playing with retirement calculators, doing stuff with kids, and playing more poker at the casino than I care to admit.

    I refuse to give up.  I feel that I know what I DON'T know.  I feel I have CASH to do deals - I think that is an asset.  I've never flipped a house - but in my 20 year history there was tons of buying and selling -- - and I knew all that time that I make my profit when I BUY the merchandise - not when I sell it and I think that lesson carries on into houses .

    Geez, all I'm trying to do - is my first rehab.

    Hoping some of you will chime in. 

    Questions, comments, insults - all are welcome. 


     When I first got into Real Estate 12 years ago I bought in Buffalo NY when the market was going up for the first time in decades.  Everyone in the industry called it a bubble and said I was overpaying considerably for properties.  The only mistake I made was not buying more.

    No one can predict the market.  Run your numbers, use a great team of experiences people, get as much info as you can... and make the leap...

    Irish Jones Realty4.947 Reviews
    View Page
  • Member since 2021 · 92 posts · 51 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Michael Dumler:

    @Mel Park, to me it sounds like you're 90% there; you have a resourceful real estate agent, reliable contractors, communicative property management, cash on hand, etc. Honestly, from what I've heard, I think you just need to get more aggressive with your offers. I would not advise waiting for the market to "correct." Opportunities hit the market all the time, and with so many others sitting on the sidelines, now is the time to take action in my opinion. That being said, ATL has indeed been super competitive these past years. Chances are those folks that are beating you out know what they're doing, some might be amateurs, but I doubt it. As you mentioned, purchasing in all cash gives you the advantage over others who are financing the deal via hard money. Again, I think this circles back to not being aggressive enough when underwriting the deal. If you know you have a solid deal in front of you, with confidence, it's time to waive DD. Moreover, I suggest you start networking with wholesalers to source deals. Your agent can still write up the offer, I do it all the time. FYI my successful clients make about 5-7 offers a month just so you're aware. Hope this makes sense and helps! 


     Michael thanks for the post.  Are there wholesalers - who do suburbs of Atlanta? Yes I can Google it - -- but I'd like a way to verify someone being legit, with track record.  Also on waiving Due Diligence - - I'm not disagreeing just playing dumb (easy role for me to play....).....by waiving DD -  if I find serious water damage, or problems with 'bones' of the house - doesn't that mean - my profits are pretty much gone?  Thanks

  • Aaron SchraderBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · SD · Member since 2020 · 137 posts · 65 votes
    4y

    If you waive due diligence there is an amount of risk you take, but maybe you can bring a contractor in to the initial house viewing with you to put your mind at ease?  Even with home inspection, things get missed.  When you waive something like due diligence or home inspections, you can sometimes get away with offering less, particularly if you are offering cash.  A cash buyer, no inspection, is pretty enticing to some buyers.  Maybe the cost difference would offset any unknowns?  I'd also want to know if the home I'm buying is in an area of known problems (soil issues, etc).

  • Real Estate Agent · Lawrenceville · Member since 2022 · 1 post · 1 vote
    4y

    Hey Mel, a lot of good advice here. Call me if you want to talk. I'm a licensed agent and I focus exclusively with fix/flip and buy/hold investors. It is a fun, exciting and challenging industry... and worth every minute. 

  • Tim DelaneyPro Member
    Buffalo, NY · Member since 2018 · 790 posts · 530 votes
    4y

    @Mel Park just keep making offers that work for you. Eventually you’ll get something. The only thing that struck me as odd is that you are sending your agent listings - he should be actively looking for you, especially since he has so much upside with the rehab and property management. I would have a discussion with him on the best ways you two can work together on identifying properties…maybe you could focus your energy on networking with wholesalers and cold calling property owners.

  • Contractor · GA · Member since 2016 · 268 posts · 54 votes
    4y

    Atlanta is a very competitive market for investors. All out of state investors see what you see! Maybe its time to reevaluate your strategy! :-)

  • Member since 2021 · 92 posts · 51 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Juan Jackson:

    Atlanta is a very competitive market for investors. All out of state investors see what you see! Maybe its time to reevaluate your strategy! :-)


     That makes total sense. But yes, like other investors - I want to buy a unit in a place with good employment and good growth forecasts. So be it Atlanta, Raleigh, Austin,  - it's gonna be competitive.    Unless, are you alluding to finding secondary markets or out in the boonies?

  • Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    7 offers in 5 months months is a tiny fraction of what you should be doing.  Seven a week is more like it.  Win rate might be 5-10% depending on your target.

    What about new build  as a plan b.  You might be able to find a GC/Builder to partner with you.  ... As others mentioned, need to get branch out to get see more opportunities and get a deal.

  • Andy SabischPro Member
    Investor · Jackson, MS · Member since 2021 · 657 posts · 559 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Rick Baggenstoss:

    7 offers in 5 months months is a tiny fraction of what you should be doing.  Seven a week is more like it.  Win rate might be 5-10% depending on your target.

    I question the offer numbers that often get posted as far as how many you need to make versus those that you get accepted.  You can target offers to increase your odds.  See if wholesalers in your area can do the legwork for you to get a property to flip.  I hate the clutter with the "We Buy Houses" signs locally but I have called about every one to get on their list to call me when they have a property.  Many of them are novices and do not know what to do when they get a call so if you are able to pick it up with the right numbers, you have not had to submit a single offer.  We have bought 6 properties in the last 3 months and only had 2 offers turned down - one was too low and we should have not tried to squeeze every nickel out of it as the ROI would have been in the 15% range.  You can still have a high win percentage of you make sensible offers that return 20% without making 100 offers hoping for one or two accepted.
  • Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    @Andy Sabisch. There are things you can do to improve your offer/accept rate.  

    - Making a connection with the seller, 

    - being one of few offers, 

    - being first offer, 

    - providing good rationale for the offer, 

    - substantiating your offer is credible

    - offering to people who *really* want to sell.  

    - persistence

    - Last but not least, offering good price or terms.

    However, the greater deals don't come along that often, so you have to lose a lot of deals while trying to make a good deal.  Good flips are more difficult, because you have to buy right from the beginning.  The short hold time will punish you for overpaying.  Landlords enjoy the "time heals all wounds" principle of real estate.  

  • Real Estate Agent · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2022 · 352 posts · 219 votes
    3y

    @Mel Park I have properties all over Atlanta. If you are still looking for deals I would love to help you!

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