Bring it on sub2 specialists

Bring it on sub2 specialists

Will BarnardPro Member
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Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

I have not personally, but several have used land trusts in their sub2 strategies. My post is not to question land trusts or their value, but to question if it is necesary or a wasted step and money in applying them to sub2?

How many of you use them in your sub2 transactions and why?

One thing that concerns me: Disclosure
Land trusts in a sub2 transaction are used to "hide" the fact that title has changed hands as to avoid the due on sale clause (DOSC for short). In doing so, are you not engaging in a decietful practice and therefore committing sometime of fraud?

Also, if you do use LT's in a sub2, are you not keeping future risk alive of the DOSC once the lender does find out? Let's face it, LT's are not a secret to lenders and the reason people use them are no secret either, so question 2 is, if you use them, the lender knows that the title was placed into a trust and could be suspicious keeping your risk of the DOSC open for the future.
Am I missing anything here?

Wouldn't it be better to just disclose up front and thus protect yourself for any and all future possibilities of a DOSC?

I have not disclosed in the past and have never used a LT on a sub2 but am considering the full disclsoure upfront and create a "statute of limitations" (for lack of a better term as I am not an attorney and am not implying this would be a statute of limitations)

What are your thoughts? :D

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  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by nationwidepi:



    Land trusts in a sub2 transaction are used to "hide" the fact that title has changed hands as to avoid the due on sale clause (DOSC for short).





    I was asked to delete the part where I described my feelings toward investors who use land trusts in Sub2 deals, So I had to delete my whole post where I was describing I thought they were shady investors etc...etc...

    no back to the regular scheduled program

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Great Nick, you just killed the thread!
    How about deleting that part about your feelings on LT users. I am not looking to "bash them" just looking to see their point of view as to the benefit as I believe it is a wasted step and extra costs and does not actual accomplish the ultimate goal.

  • Real Estate Investor · Outstate, MN · Member since 2009 · 25 posts · 13 votes
    17y

    Though they kinda make sense, I never got aroung to using Land Trusts, too much hassle, LLCs are easier, This biz takes enough time as it is. Lenders aren't worried about DOS these days. And Land Trusts can raise red flags when your final buyer goes to refi, esp. if the title's not seasoned, I have done many sub2 deals, the only notice I've ever gotten from a lender was that, since someone who's not on the mortgage is making the payment, I may not be entitled to the interest deduction. I even had a seller with a BOA loan I took sub2 get [i]another[/I] BOA loan a year later after I explained that a "mgmt company" was making her payments on her behalf and though it remained on her credit, it didn't affect her DTI at all.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Payson, AZ · Member since 2009 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    17y

    Thanks for bringing this thread back to life after I killed it earlier. I didn't mean to kill it but I'm glad you came around to revive it.

    I'm also glad to see another Sub'r on the block.

  • Bellevue, WA · Member since 2008 · 156 posts · 57 votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Thos MN:
    I even had a seller with a BOA loan I took sub2 get [i]another[/I] BOA loan a year later after I explained that a "mgmt company" was making her payments on her behalf

    But isn't this exactly the point of the OP? He said that sub 2 deals are built on deceiving the lender. The fact that you felt the need to talk about a "management company" shows that you felt the need to deceive. If you didn't, you would have said "I purchased the place 'subject to.' Do you really care as long as the mortgage is current?"

    I'm not trying to make a moral judgement here, just further exploring the issue.

  • Real Estate Investor · Outstate, MN · Member since 2009 · 25 posts · 13 votes
    17y

    I didn't lie or deceive, I told her the truth. I run a mgmt company, and we were making the payments. There was nothing to be gained by trying to explain how I'd gone on title via sub2. She didn't ask, and I didn't offer it, why should I?

    Remember, no law was broken. Somewhere buried is the fine print of the loan is a DOS clause, which is a civil matter at most. If they want to draw the conclusion that the property "sold"--which I think the loan officer did anyway--they could call the loan due. Bottom line is my seller got her new loan, and the loan in her name that I'm paying on is current. as it has been since I took it over 2+ years ago. Do you really think the lender is upset that their loan that was on the brink of foreclosure back then is performing now?

  • Real Estate Investor · dc, Washington D.C. · Member since 2008 · 392 posts · 89 votes
    17y

    Actually, it's my understanding that land trusts are more for asset protection. It's more of a deterrent than anything else for anyone casually snooping around. A determined individual/group could take a few educated guesses and track the benefactor down eventually.

    A land trust probably wouldn't work so well on any commercial properties purchased with a subject-to mortgage, because the underlying mortgage typically will get called in 3-5 years anyway.

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