Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
It's interesting how the Muslim Brotherhood is caught between and rock and a hard place, saying demonstrate but do not destroy property or turn to violence.
This came to the burning surface from the movie trailer released to insight others.
The US didn't release this nor is it any official view, the acts of crazies....
Seems tome that if you go in any state and insght a riot and people are killed as a result of such riot, those responsible are held accountable. I see no difference in starting the riot here and causing it anywhere. If I strated a riot in AZ from MO, I believe I'd get deported to AZ, while we don't do that with all other countries, I would not mind seeing those responsible deported and tried there for this incident, and if not, held accountable here. Seems too that there was fraud involved with the actors and in changing the name of the movie after it was made. Since they incited a riot that killed Americans, I'd like to see these people pay the price!
What if someone went crazy in a supermarket, yelling, "Obama is a horrible President and he makes me want to kill people!!!"
Would we put Obama on trial for inciting a riot?
What if an ex-employee shoots up his old office because he got fired...do we charge the guy who fired him with inciting a riot?
The point is, killing is rarely a proportionate response to the provocation, so blaming the provocateur seems inappropriate. Perhaps if you can prove that what the provocateur did was actually illegal, then perhaps charge them as an accomplice -- for example, the guy driving the getaway car is still responsible if someone dies in the holdup.
Just not sure how to enforce this in a reasonable way...
It's still a bit early, but some reports are coming out stating that the intelligence community already had wind of the protests occurring, meaning it wasn't tied to the movie. Don't assume too quickly.
Yes, it's speculated that factions of Al-Quida were the culprits. They arrived in three cars flaying black flags and attacked with auto weapons and rocket launchers/RPGs. But that attack was after the release of the movie it appears.
17 countries are now involved in attacking or protesting. A UN outpost in the Sinia has been attacked as well as a German embassy.
Do they need to go to jail? I thought that was rather clear, does freedom of speech protect those that yell fire in a crowed, darkened theater when there is no fire? No, it does not, try and see. The Media for Christ is behind it and a guy named Steven Kline, who is on the run right now. Seems to 5 million was raised to make the film yet only a fraction used. To date there is no accounting for the additional money. The actors say they were dupped saying the film was to be about something else with a different title and that many of their statements were dubbed not in line with the script. So, it seems there may be a basis for prosecution. IMO, our rights as Americans stop at the waters edge, putting that film on U-Tube, to me, that a reasonable person would understand that it would be offensive, that it would be seen in other parts of the world and that it would insight those offended, especially since we went through this with Terry Johnson (FA self proclaimed minister burining the Koran). I'd say let the courts figure it out.
I firmly believe that private citizens should not get intentionally involved in foreign affairs with malice intent on the internet. That's what we have leaders for.
And this is not to get political in anyway, but making threats to cutoff aid is not the answer, the total aid and budget for embassies and operations is less than one per cent ouf our total budget. It is leverage, not a club.
The risk of allowing the Arab Spring to run its course is surfacing. We supported the democracy movement as we should have and we knew that a vacume might be created. That is just part of our policies from the end of WWII.
I believe we are going to have a long period of educational efforts to inform citizens of other countries and faiths. Admitting that we have nuts and basically the freedom to be nuts. Nations that have had dictators have been dumbed down their population to keep them in check, only certain people have been educated and the rest have been fed misinformation for decades, look at N. Korea, same thing there, everything that is wrong in their country isn't from a few ripping them off, it's because of the evil west. It will take generations to cut through the damage these religious dictators have intentionally inflicted. It could take longer.
In Cairo the mob appeared and pretty much disbanded on command, so that shows us that it is not just a group of ticked off citizens (there are many I'm sure) but that it is orchestrated with a leadership structure. It's unclear at this time who that faction may be.
So true about there being a holdover period of time for these people to understand freedom in the American sense of the word... We have all sorts of whackos that say whatever they want here, for better or for worse. Good to keep that context in mind. A lot of these people don't understand that our government doesn't control every bit of info/movie/tv etc. that is released.
I sincerely hope, though, that these countries do consider the amount of aid they get from us. Be offended, sure.. that is your right. But don't insight violence to the same people that will surely give you food and water for free if you are in dire need.
So if the crazy terrorists were causing mayhem because they were offended by pornography or a Will and Grace rerun, should those producers be held accountable as well?
I think your idea of punishing the movie producer is like holding beer companies accountable for drunk driving or gun companies accountable for murder. These muslim extremists are nuts. They cannot be reasoned with.
Remember a few years back when some "artist" received a grant and made some offensive "art" involving Jesus? What if a bunch of Christians went nuts and killed people over that? Should the "artist" then be charged?
If someone wants to mock islam or muhammed and post it on the internet, that is their business. We have freedom of speech in this country and if these muslim crazies can't deal with it, that is their problem.
These aholes came to our soil (embasies) prepared to burn, kill, and destroy. It is time to see how the governments handel their folks and reighn them in. Lybia is the only one that I have seen show the slightest remorse. It was not a protest in their country. You don't bring guns, mortors, and rocket launchers to a protest. Are the host countries going to bring the aholes to justice? Or just harbor them like the Taliban?
Don
What if someone went crazy in a supermarket, yelling, "Obama is a horrible President and he makes me want to kill people!!!"
Would we put Obama on trial for inciting a riot?
What if an ex-employee shoots up his old office because he got fired...do we charge the guy who fired him with inciting a riot?
The point is, killing is rarely a proportionate response to the provocation, so blaming the provocateur seems inappropriate. Perhaps if you can prove that what the provocateur did was actually illegal, then perhaps charge them as an accomplice -- for example, the guy driving the getaway car is still responsible if someone dies in the holdup.
Just not sure how to enforce this in a reasonable way...
The point is, killing is rarely a proportionate response to the provocation, so blaming the provocateur seems inappropriate. Perhaps if you can prove that what the provocateur did was actually illegal, then perhaps charge them as an accomplice -- for example, the guy driving the getaway car is still responsible if someone dies in the holdup.
Just not sure how to enforce this in a reasonable way...
Agreed! I might add that the timing of the release with 9/11 would lend to showing intent. I didn't mean to imply that those who released the film killed anyone, but are just as responsible in much the same way your driver was. How many "drivers" have gone to prison because partner let things get out of hand in a robbery and the driver had no knowledge of the acys committed? Similar I would think.
We haven't caught up with technology in our legal system, but seems we are getting there, thinking about the bullying laws, rumors or misinformation and slander, where those that incite or are abusive are ending up taking responsibility for their actions.
We will see what happens today or if they are tired of shouting over there.
It was reported that they have 4 in custody in Lybia responsible for the attack and more to come.
And as mentioned above, the movie may have been used as an opportunity to blame an already planned attack which is more likely related to the killing of an Al-quida leader in a drone strike.
I wish the Libya government can bring all the culprit responsible for the killings to justice and pray this will never happen to another American again. It's really sad how someone can take the life of others, just like that !
Agreed! I might add that the timing of the release with 9/11 would lend to showing intent.
Keep in mind that the exact same thing happened last Presidential election cycle -- an anti-Islamic film was released 7 weeks before the election.
Also worth noting that that film -- from 4 years ago -- was subsidized by the Koch brothers, who are the largest GOP financers. It's unclear at this point who funded last week's film.
Yes, while it is something home grown far right types would do, I believe this was funded by a real estate developer in France I believe it was.
What we have here are far right Christian factions fighting against far right Muslims and vice versa.
Not to get into another thread that died (let it) is that your observation of the timing to elections warrants a look at the motive. Usually a crisis gives a bounce to the Pres. happened with Carter too but it didn't go well for him. I think this will have a different outcome.
The threat of homegrown groups is actually the number one threat inside our boarders, that has alot to do with the efforts of keeping foreign threats down put in place sine 01. Cyber warfare included!
Now they are talking to one of those responsible for the film, he was picked but not arrested and the feds are wanting to find out if he violated his probation arising from other convictions. He's a far R type who was convicted of fraud before, they may want to know where the rest of that production money went...LOL
It's not over, those in Oz have joined in the protests, I doubt that will last long down there.