Just landed another STR ARBITRAGE, here’s the scoop

Just landed another STR ARBITRAGE, here’s the scoop

Investor · Carolina Beach, NC · Member since 2018 · 188 posts · 377 votes

Sorry guys, in Clint fashion, this is another long post, but there is some gold in here if you’re willing to dig for it.

It’s been a while since I posted, but in response to some questions about this, I thought it might be helpful.  This is our third multi-family arbitrage that we’re working on, and I thought that I would just share the email that got things going after the initial phone conversation.  Here’s the timeline.  A multifamily property in a great location popped up 2 months ago.  Loved the location, but there were tenants in place that WERE NOT taking care of the property, and the prices was almost 400k, and the gross monthly rents were $1850.  It was an atrocious deal.  We viewed the property, spoke with the owner, let him know that even though the property needed work, I thought the location was solid, but that the tenants in place were going to be a big problem, but that I would be in touch to see if anything changed.  The property sat for over a months with zero action, of course.  I followed up a month later, and the owner let me know that his tenants sucked, and that he would probably be filing eviction.  I told him that it was still out of my price range for the amount of work I would want to do, but I would run an analysis and follow up.  

From my analysis, and with our track record, I know this property is worth 50k per unit in gross rents (duplex). As is, this property looks like it’s extremely over-priced, but the reality is just that it’s underperforming.  After calling the owner again after letting it sit, he informed me that he’s taking on a huge project at work, and frankly he just doesn’t have the time and energy to deal with bad tenants, and he’s just trying to get out of the property what he paid for it in 2005.  That’s when I turned the conversation to arbitrage, and told him about what we have done in running our own properties, and in partnering with other owners that had under-performing properties.  He was interested, and asked me to send an email with some more information, and if it sounded ok, we would do lunch.  Here is that email, with personal info redacted.

“Hey X, wanted to follow up on our conversation the other day of a possible arbitrage or master lease on your duplex on X Ave. Would love to talk more about things over lunch, but here’s the short-ish version. My wife and I moved to Wilmington in 2017 and ended up in X area. I’m in medical sales, I implant pacemakers and defibrillators at the hospital. My wife was previously in medical sales as well, but decided to go full time into real estate once we moved to NC. We had 7 single family rentals and a duplex in Columbia, SC, and just decided to keep going in this new market. We ended up buying a duplex on X ave, its 3/2 in each half, we renovated, staged, and operate short term rentals out of the other half. We spent a lot of time and effort on studying the market data and purchasing review-based data from top performing properties and from super-hosts all over the country. As a result, our first listing crushed it, even during the winter. Average occupancy at CB is 63% annually, highly seasonal, with average of 19% in the winter and 95% in the summer, as you would expect. With using review-based data for everything from renovations, to staging, photos, marketing, we operated at 81% from November through April in our first off season. Our annual occupancy sits around 88%, compared to the average of 63% for our competition. We’ve since expanded, put systems in place, hired our own cleaners, laundry service, purchased our own software management system, and currently have X units operating as top performing listings, and we have 3 more that will be coming on to the market this off season.

Here’s the part that I think may appeal to you. X of the units that we currently operate, and X that will be operating shortly, are all part of the same portfolio that we leased from the property owner. The owner had long term tenants in place that were really treating the properties poorly, breaking things, and were paying under market rents because of the condition of the property. We reached out to him just after he finished another eviction, and we ended up taking over X of his units, while waiting for the rest to finish out their lease. Here’s why this works for him, and why I think it might be a good fit for you as well.

You know the downsides of long term tenants. They live in the property and often don’t treat it with the same respect that they would something they own. There is wear and tear, broken windows, piles of junk, etc. Those repairs fall to you as the property management, and as we both know, you don’t have time for that right now. Here’s what I can offer you. If you get those tenants out, and we get the property in good shape, I can take that property and make it a top performing short term rental on the island. I’ll be the best tenant you’ve ever had. If someone breaks a fan, a window, a toilet, etc, you don’t fix it any more, I do. We have a handyman on retainer that is always available to fix any issues before the next guests arrive. On top of that, I have professional cleaners in the property every 2-5 days on average. Besides just cleaning between guests, we have a once-a-month deep clean that covers air filters, baseboards, ceiling fan blades, etc. Besides that, our tenants are usually only in the property for 3-4 hours a day, they almost never use appliances, and are very gentle on floors, cabinets, etc. The result is your property is being taken care of on a level it hasn’t seen before. My cleaners are always on the lookout for any issue like leaks, floor issues, dents in the wall, etc, and know to forward the pics to me, and then send the issue straight to our handyman. That’s a nice byproduct of our system, but that’s not the real value creation for you as the owner.

One of the real key factors here is that at $(Current price) I think most people are looking at your property as over-priced, but I disagree. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think your property is just drastically under-performing. Sure, currently showing 22K or so in rents, that price of $X doesn’t make any sense, but I don’t see it as a problem with the price, it’s a problem with the performance. Your location has the ability to triple those rents; it just takes time and work to build a system that will do that. You don’t have that time, but I’ve already spent a year building that system, and it would be easy to put it to work in your property. If we get the property fixed up a little bit that gives us something to work with, I can pay you a little more in rent than you’re currently getting, but keep in mind, that’s not the real value. Sure, you increase your cash flow a little, and you get a small equity build each month, but the real value is the forced-appreciating that comes with running a tremendous amount of rental income through the property. When the property shows 60k-70k in gross rents, all of a sudden $(current price) isn’t overpriced anymore. Keep in mind, there are definitely fixed-overhead expenses in terms of paying cleaners, handymen, short term rental commisions, etc, but the point remains, your property is under-performing, I can see that, and I can fix it. We specifically look for underperforming long term rental units, and we either purchase them and convert them, or we look to partner with the owner to create a win-win situation. Our business model is to take a liability in your portfolio and convert it to an asset so that you either want to keep it because it’s completely hands-off and we continue to partner on it, or put together a deal where we can use the performance of the property to help us purchase it from you.

In summary, if you are willing to partner on this, you turn the listings over to me, and I will stage and operate them. You get paid on the first of every month, and you always get paid first before we ever make a dime. You don’t have any more daily management of the tenants, I do that. The value of your property continues to go up, both from being maintained, building some equity, and from the forced-appreciation from increased gross rents. If we do a good enough job, which we have a track-record of doing, we can pay for the fixed overhead, and still turn a profit that hits our barrier-to-entry metrics. If this sounds like something you might be interested in, let me know and we can grab lunch. Here is the link to X of the Super-host properties we have up and running right now, and if you would like to speak with him, I’m happy to get you the contact info of some of the property owners that we are partnered with that have offered to be references. 

Best Regards,  Clint Harris”

So there you go guys, that’s what I mean by trying to communicate the value that can be added and creating a Win-Win situation.  Hope that was helpful, y’all have a great weekend!

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John UnderwoodPro Member
Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
7y
I see arbitrage as a house of cards or at best a job as a PM. You will not build equity or own anything this way.
Also rules can change as they are in numerous places across the country to prevent STR's.

If you only want to manage other peoples properties then I sincerely think this is great for you. I prefer to own my Long term and Short term properties and most all of mine have no mortgage so I can sit back and collect rent, gain equity and have tax write-offs offs. My tenants are paying off my properties that have a mortgage.

I would try and get these owners to sell to you with bank or owner financing.


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  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    7y
    I see arbitrage as a house of cards or at best a job as a PM. You will not build equity or own anything this way.
    Also rules can change as they are in numerous places across the country to prevent STR's.

    If you only want to manage other peoples properties then I sincerely think this is great for you. I prefer to own my Long term and Short term properties and most all of mine have no mortgage so I can sit back and collect rent, gain equity and have tax write-offs offs. My tenants are paying off my properties that have a mortgage.

    I would try and get these owners to sell to you with bank or owner financing.


  • Hatfield, PA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 629 votes
    7y
    Arbitrage... all the risks and work and expenses involved without the appreciation, equity buildup, ownership or other benefits.

    mortgage rates of 4% or less. Why in the world do I want to work with someone who could change their mind? And I am stuck paying for a place I don't live in if it doesn't work out because I signed a long enough agreement to lock me in?

    Lose-Lose.

    Originally posted by @Clint Harris:

    Sorry guys, in Clint fashion, this is another long post, but there is some gold in here if you’re willing to dig for it.

    It’s been a while since I posted, but in response to some questions about this, I thought it might be helpful.  This is our third multi-family arbitrage that we’re working on, and I thought that I would just share the email that got things going after the initial phone conversation.  Here’s the timeline.  A multifamily property in a great location popped up 2 months ago.  Loved the location, but there were tenants in place that WERE NOT taking care of the property, and the prices was almost 400k, and the gross monthly rents were $1850.  It was an atrocious deal.  We viewed the property, spoke with the owner, let him know that even though the property needed work, I thought the location was solid, but that the tenants in place were going to be a big problem, but that I would be in touch to see if anything changed.  The property sat for over a months with zero action, of course.  I followed up a month later, and the owner let me know that his tenants sucked, and that he would probably be filing eviction.  I told him that it was still out of my price range for the amount of work I would want to do, but I would run an analysis and follow up.  

    From my analysis, and with our track record, I know this property is worth 50k per unit in gross rents (duplex). As is, this property looks like it’s extremely over-priced, but the reality is just that it’s underperforming.  After calling the owner again after letting it sit, he informed me that he’s taking on a huge project at work, and frankly he just doesn’t have the time and energy to deal with bad tenants, and he’s just trying to get out of the property what he paid for it in 2005.  That’s when I turned the conversation to arbitrage, and told him about what we have done in running our own properties, and in partnering with other owners that had under-performing properties.  He was interested, and asked me to send an email with some more information, and if it sounded ok, we would do lunch.  Here is that email, with personal info redacted.

    “Hey X, wanted to follow up on our conversation the other day of a possible arbitrage or master lease on your duplex on X Ave. Would love to talk more about things over lunch, but here’s the short-ish version. My wife and I moved to Wilmington in 2017 and ended up in X area. I’m in medical sales, I implant pacemakers and defibrillators at the hospital. My wife was previously in medical sales as well, but decided to go full time into real estate once we moved to NC. We had 7 single family rentals and a duplex in Columbia, SC, and just decided to keep going in this new market. We ended up buying a duplex on X ave, its 3/2 in each half, we renovated, staged, and operate short term rentals out of the other half. We spent a lot of time and effort on studying the market data and purchasing review-based data from top performing properties and from super-hosts all over the country. As a result, our first listing crushed it, even during the winter. Average occupancy at CB is 63% annually, highly seasonal, with average of 19% in the winter and 95% in the summer, as you would expect. With using review-based data for everything from renovations, to staging, photos, marketing, we operated at 81% from November through April in our first off season. Our annual occupancy sits around 88%, compared to the average of 63% for our competition. We’ve since expanded, put systems in place, hired our own cleaners, laundry service, purchased our own software management system, and currently have X units operating as top performing listings, and we have 3 more that will be coming on to the market this off season.

    Here’s the part that I think may appeal to you. X of the units that we currently operate, and X that will be operating shortly, are all part of the same portfolio that we leased from the property owner. The owner had long term tenants in place that were really treating the properties poorly, breaking things, and were paying under market rents because of the condition of the property. We reached out to him just after he finished another eviction, and we ended up taking over X of his units, while waiting for the rest to finish out their lease. Here’s why this works for him, and why I think it might be a good fit for you as well.

    You know the downsides of long term tenants. They live in the property and often don’t treat it with the same respect that they would something they own. There is wear and tear, broken windows, piles of junk, etc. Those repairs fall to you as the property management, and as we both know, you don’t have time for that right now. Here’s what I can offer you. If you get those tenants out, and we get the property in good shape, I can take that property and make it a top performing short term rental on the island. I’ll be the best tenant you’ve ever had. If someone breaks a fan, a window, a toilet, etc, you don’t fix it any more, I do. We have a handyman on retainer that is always available to fix any issues before the next guests arrive. On top of that, I have professional cleaners in the property every 2-5 days on average. Besides just cleaning between guests, we have a once-a-month deep clean that covers air filters, baseboards, ceiling fan blades, etc. Besides that, our tenants are usually only in the property for 3-4 hours a day, they almost never use appliances, and are very gentle on floors, cabinets, etc. The result is your property is being taken care of on a level it hasn’t seen before. My cleaners are always on the lookout for any issue like leaks, floor issues, dents in the wall, etc, and know to forward the pics to me, and then send the issue straight to our handyman. That’s a nice byproduct of our system, but that’s not the real value creation for you as the owner.

    One of the real key factors here is that at $(Current price) I think most people are looking at your property as over-priced, but I disagree. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think your property is just drastically under-performing. Sure, currently showing 22K or so in rents, that price of $X doesn’t make any sense, but I don’t see it as a problem with the price, it’s a problem with the performance. Your location has the ability to triple those rents; it just takes time and work to build a system that will do that. You don’t have that time, but I’ve already spent a year building that system, and it would be easy to put it to work in your property. If we get the property fixed up a little bit that gives us something to work with, I can pay you a little more in rent than you’re currently getting, but keep in mind, that’s not the real value. Sure, you increase your cash flow a little, and you get a small equity build each month, but the real value is the forced-appreciating that comes with running a tremendous amount of rental income through the property. When the property shows 60k-70k in gross rents, all of a sudden $(current price) isn’t overpriced anymore. Keep in mind, there are definitely fixed-overhead expenses in terms of paying cleaners, handymen, short term rental commisions, etc, but the point remains, your property is under-performing, I can see that, and I can fix it. We specifically look for underperforming long term rental units, and we either purchase them and convert them, or we look to partner with the owner to create a win-win situation. Our business model is to take a liability in your portfolio and convert it to an asset so that you either want to keep it because it’s completely hands-off and we continue to partner on it, or put together a deal where we can use the performance of the property to help us purchase it from you.

    In summary, if you are willing to partner on this, you turn the listings over to me, and I will stage and operate them. You get paid on the first of every month, and you always get paid first before we ever make a dime. You don’t have any more daily management of the tenants, I do that. The value of your property continues to go up, both from being maintained, building some equity, and from the forced-appreciation from increased gross rents. If we do a good enough job, which we have a track-record of doing, we can pay for the fixed overhead, and still turn a profit that hits our barrier-to-entry metrics. If this sounds like something you might be interested in, let me know and we can grab lunch. Here is the link to X of the Super-host properties we have up and running right now, and if you would like to speak with him, I’m happy to get you the contact info of some of the property owners that we are partnered with that have offered to be references. 

    Best Regards,  Clint Harris”

    So there you go guys, that’s what I mean by trying to communicate the value that can be added and creating a Win-Win situation.  Hope that was helpful, y’all have a great weekend!

  • Investor · Carolina Beach, NC · Member since 2018 · 188 posts · 377 votes
    7y
    Couldn’t agree more John!  I think you’re dead on.  It’s not my first option, and we continue to buy.  I definitely want the equity, and even more so, the forced appreciation from the rental income.  That having been said, in a market with high prices right now, we are still able to pick up arbitrage units, and we make a minimum of $1000 per month profit per unit.  So even if we don’t want to buy anything right now, on a triplex, I can make 36k in cash flow, so that’s worth it to me until I convert that into a purchase or another asset class.

    Originally posted by @John Underwood:
    I see arbitrage as a house of cards or at best a job as a PM. You will not build equity or own anything this way.
    Also rules can change as they are in numerous places across the country to prevent STR's.

    If you only want to manage other peoples properties then I sincerely think this is great for you. I prefer to own my Long term and Short term properties and most all of mine have no mortgage so I can sit back and collect rent, gain equity and have tax write-offs offs. My tenants are paying off my properties that have a mortgage.

    I would try and get these owners to sell to you with bank or owner financing.


  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2012 · 121 posts · 43 votes
    7y

    If rental arbitrage is your game, I think this is a great approach. There are a lot of people doing this business and it's I've considered it myself. That being said, I'm with John. I prefer fewer units that I own and am gaining equity with.

  • Investor · Carolina Beach, NC · Member since 2018 · 188 posts · 377 votes
    7y
    Good questions Ken, the deal we put together is a lease to own, and the property generates more than the 20% down in less than 2 years.  Our barrier to entry is that we want to make at least $1000 profit per unit per month.  If you don’t have the data metrics to know that this is going to work, then you shouldn’t be doing it.  We use data scraped from AirDNA that shows all performance metrics from the previous 365 days of all short term rentals in our market, including occupancy, seasonality, average daily rate, market saturation, everything.  There’s not really any guess work involved, all of our listings out perform those median metrics substantially.  Even if you somehow managed to absolutely screw everything up, and just torpedo’d the whole operation, you always have the exit strategy of putting long germ tenants into the property for higher rents once it’s been given the initial facelift/renovation.  Never had to do that so far though.  All of our arbitrage deals make at least $1000 profit per door, per month, and that cash just goes right back into buying, whether it be more short term units, or hopefully this year, long term multiplexes

    Originally posted by @Ken Latchers:
    Arbitrage... all the risks and work and expenses involved without the appreciation, equity buildup, ownership or other benefits.

    mortgage rates of 4% or less. Why in the world do I want to work with someone who could change their mind? And I am stuck paying for a place I don't live in if it doesn't work out because I signed a long enough agreement to lock me in?

    Lose-Lose.

    Originally posted by @Clint Harris:

    Sorry guys, in Clint fashion, this is another long post, but there is some gold in here if you’re willing to dig for it.

    It’s been a while since I posted, but in response to some questions about this, I thought it might be helpful.  This is our third multi-family arbitrage that we’re working on, and I thought that I would just share the email that got things going after the initial phone conversation.  Here’s the timeline.  A multifamily property in a great location popped up 2 months ago.  Loved the location, but there were tenants in place that WERE NOT taking care of the property, and the prices was almost 400k, and the gross monthly rents were $1850.  It was an atrocious deal.  We viewed the property, spoke with the owner, let him know that even though the property needed work, I thought the location was solid, but that the tenants in place were going to be a big problem, but that I would be in touch to see if anything changed.  The property sat for over a months with zero action, of course.  I followed up a month later, and the owner let me know that his tenants sucked, and that he would probably be filing eviction.  I told him that it was still out of my price range for the amount of work I would want to do, but I would run an analysis and follow up.  

    From my analysis, and with our track record, I know this property is worth 50k per unit in gross rents (duplex). As is, this property looks like it’s extremely over-priced, but the reality is just that it’s underperforming.  After calling the owner again after letting it sit, he informed me that he’s taking on a huge project at work, and frankly he just doesn’t have the time and energy to deal with bad tenants, and he’s just trying to get out of the property what he paid for it in 2005.  That’s when I turned the conversation to arbitrage, and told him about what we have done in running our own properties, and in partnering with other owners that had under-performing properties.  He was interested, and asked me to send an email with some more information, and if it sounded ok, we would do lunch.  Here is that email, with personal info redacted.

    “Hey X, wanted to follow up on our conversation the other day of a possible arbitrage or master lease on your duplex on X Ave. Would love to talk more about things over lunch, but here’s the short-ish version. My wife and I moved to Wilmington in 2017 and ended up in X area. I’m in medical sales, I implant pacemakers and defibrillators at the hospital. My wife was previously in medical sales as well, but decided to go full time into real estate once we moved to NC. We had 7 single family rentals and a duplex in Columbia, SC, and just decided to keep going in this new market. We ended up buying a duplex on X ave, its 3/2 in each half, we renovated, staged, and operate short term rentals out of the other half. We spent a lot of time and effort on studying the market data and purchasing review-based data from top performing properties and from super-hosts all over the country. As a result, our first listing crushed it, even during the winter. Average occupancy at CB is 63% annually, highly seasonal, with average of 19% in the winter and 95% in the summer, as you would expect. With using review-based data for everything from renovations, to staging, photos, marketing, we operated at 81% from November through April in our first off season. Our annual occupancy sits around 88%, compared to the average of 63% for our competition. We’ve since expanded, put systems in place, hired our own cleaners, laundry service, purchased our own software management system, and currently have X units operating as top performing listings, and we have 3 more that will be coming on to the market this off season.

    Here’s the part that I think may appeal to you. X of the units that we currently operate, and X that will be operating shortly, are all part of the same portfolio that we leased from the property owner. The owner had long term tenants in place that were really treating the properties poorly, breaking things, and were paying under market rents because of the condition of the property. We reached out to him just after he finished another eviction, and we ended up taking over X of his units, while waiting for the rest to finish out their lease. Here’s why this works for him, and why I think it might be a good fit for you as well.

    You know the downsides of long term tenants. They live in the property and often don’t treat it with the same respect that they would something they own. There is wear and tear, broken windows, piles of junk, etc. Those repairs fall to you as the property management, and as we both know, you don’t have time for that right now. Here’s what I can offer you. If you get those tenants out, and we get the property in good shape, I can take that property and make it a top performing short term rental on the island. I’ll be the best tenant you’ve ever had. If someone breaks a fan, a window, a toilet, etc, you don’t fix it any more, I do. We have a handyman on retainer that is always available to fix any issues before the next guests arrive. On top of that, I have professional cleaners in the property every 2-5 days on average. Besides just cleaning between guests, we have a once-a-month deep clean that covers air filters, baseboards, ceiling fan blades, etc. Besides that, our tenants are usually only in the property for 3-4 hours a day, they almost never use appliances, and are very gentle on floors, cabinets, etc. The result is your property is being taken care of on a level it hasn’t seen before. My cleaners are always on the lookout for any issue like leaks, floor issues, dents in the wall, etc, and know to forward the pics to me, and then send the issue straight to our handyman. That’s a nice byproduct of our system, but that’s not the real value creation for you as the owner.

    One of the real key factors here is that at $(Current price) I think most people are looking at your property as over-priced, but I disagree. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think your property is just drastically under-performing. Sure, currently showing 22K or so in rents, that price of $X doesn’t make any sense, but I don’t see it as a problem with the price, it’s a problem with the performance. Your location has the ability to triple those rents; it just takes time and work to build a system that will do that. You don’t have that time, but I’ve already spent a year building that system, and it would be easy to put it to work in your property. If we get the property fixed up a little bit that gives us something to work with, I can pay you a little more in rent than you’re currently getting, but keep in mind, that’s not the real value. Sure, you increase your cash flow a little, and you get a small equity build each month, but the real value is the forced-appreciating that comes with running a tremendous amount of rental income through the property. When the property shows 60k-70k in gross rents, all of a sudden $(current price) isn’t overpriced anymore. Keep in mind, there are definitely fixed-overhead expenses in terms of paying cleaners, handymen, short term rental commisions, etc, but the point remains, your property is under-performing, I can see that, and I can fix it. We specifically look for underperforming long term rental units, and we either purchase them and convert them, or we look to partner with the owner to create a win-win situation. Our business model is to take a liability in your portfolio and convert it to an asset so that you either want to keep it because it’s completely hands-off and we continue to partner on it, or put together a deal where we can use the performance of the property to help us purchase it from you.

    In summary, if you are willing to partner on this, you turn the listings over to me, and I will stage and operate them. You get paid on the first of every month, and you always get paid first before we ever make a dime. You don’t have any more daily management of the tenants, I do that. The value of your property continues to go up, both from being maintained, building some equity, and from the forced-appreciation from increased gross rents. If we do a good enough job, which we have a track-record of doing, we can pay for the fixed overhead, and still turn a profit that hits our barrier-to-entry metrics. If this sounds like something you might be interested in, let me know and we can grab lunch. Here is the link to X of the Super-host properties we have up and running right now, and if you would like to speak with him, I’m happy to get you the contact info of some of the property owners that we are partnered with that have offered to be references. 

    Best Regards,  Clint Harris”

    So there you go guys, that’s what I mean by trying to communicate the value that can be added and creating a Win-Win situation.  Hope that was helpful, y’all have a great weekend!

  • Investor · Carolina Beach, NC · Member since 2018 · 188 posts · 377 votes
    7y
    Totally agree.  We only do arbitrage because it’s the fastest way for us to make an extra 100k in a year to use for purchasing.  It’s a means to an end, we definitely don’t want to live in this space.  Currently, just under half of our units are arbitrage.

    Originally posted by @Kevin Boyd:

    If rental arbitrage is your game, I think this is a great approach. There are a lot of people doing this business and it's I've considered it myself. That being said, I'm with John. I prefer fewer units that I own and am gaining equity with.

  • Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2012 · 121 posts · 43 votes
    7y

    Nothing wrong with that! 

  • Real Estate Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2016 · 922 posts · 533 votes
    7y

    @Clint Harris

    @John Underwood

    Hey Clint to follow up on what John said, why would you go the arbitrage route of signing a long term lease and operating a short term rental, if you have the option to just buy the place, do the work - and operate the STR yourself?

  • Investor · Carolina Beach, NC · Member since 2018 · 188 posts · 377 votes
    7y
    Because as I stated, it’s overpriced, and needs significant work.  So. I’m not going to buy something that’s over market value, and then put 50k into it.  But if I arbitrage it, in two years the property pays for the 20% down and most of the renovations.  I’m using the revenue from the arbitrage to pay for it instead of using my cash.  Also, once we finalize the purchase, that original purchase price makes sense when the property has a track record of 2 years of 100k in gross rents.  And I am operating the STR, we just pay the owner monthly rent that’s the same amount that the mortgage would be.  The difference is that I’m not spending 80k to get to an 80% LTV, the property will generate that in 2 years.

    Originally posted by @Jim Goebel:

    @Clint Harris

    @John Underwood

    Hey Clint to follow up on what John said, why would you go the arbitrage route of signing a long term lease and operating a short term rental, if you have the option to just buy the place, do the work - and operate the STR yourself?

  • Real Estate Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2016 · 922 posts · 533 votes
    7y

    @Clint Harris

    Well we all have different constraints, but I'd rather own it.  How does your long term lease payment ($/mo) compare to a mortgage payment, if your purchased ($/mo)?  For most of us, the lease would be more; hence the reason we buy and are landlords!

  • Investor · Carolina Beach, NC · Member since 2018 · 188 posts · 377 votes
    7y
    Because of the property being overpriced, the rent for both units is within $100 of the mortgage, and that’s at 80% LTV.  We’ll own it in 2 years with the property will generate the 20% down instead of us using cash

    Originally posted by @Jim Goebel:

    @Clint Harris

    Well we all have different constraints, but I'd rather own it.  How does your long term lease payment ($/mo) compare to a mortgage payment, if your purchased ($/mo)?  For most of us, the lease would be more; hence the reason we buy and are landlords!

  • Plantation, FL · Member since 2009 · 329 posts · 119 votes
    7y

    Your email makes good points but is way too long. 

  • Hatfield, PA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 629 votes
    7y
    It's overpriced and needs significant work is the problem, not the fact that you would like to buy it. str is like ltr.

    Arbitrage doesn't fix your making a bad decision. And it might make things worse.

    and your estimates about how you can pay it off tend to be way off when you are new. Newbies tend to make a lot less money for a number of reasons.

    why are the world you think anybody wants to partner with someone who doesn't know what he's doing?

    Originally posted by @Clint Harris:
    Because as I stated, it’s overpriced, and needs significant work.  So. I’m not going to buy something that’s over market value, and then put 50k into it.  But if I arbitrage it, in two years the property pays for the 20% down and most of the renovations.  I’m using the revenue from the arbitrage to pay for it instead of using my cash.  Also, once we finalize the purchase, that original purchase price makes sense when the property has a track record of 2 years of 100k in gross rents.  And I am operating the STR, we just pay the owner monthly rent that’s the same amount that the mortgage would be.  The difference is that I’m not spending 80k to get to an 80% LTV, the property will generate that in 2 years.

    Originally posted by @Jim Goebel:

    @Clint Harris

    @John Underwood

    Hey Clint to follow up on what John said, why would you go the arbitrage route of signing a long term lease and operating a short term rental, if you have the option to just buy the place, do the work - and operate the STR yourself?

  • Investor · Carolina Beach, NC · Member since 2018 · 188 posts · 377 votes
    7y
    This was after 3-4 conversations in person, and more importantly it landed the deal, so I’ll agree to disagree

    Originally posted by @Anand S.:

    Your email makes good points but is way too long. 

  • Belfast, Northern Ireland · Member since 2018 · 128 posts · 56 votes
    7y

    @Clint Harris

    I’ve been slowly watching the growth of arbitrage over the last few months, especially in social media. Is it big and I just don’t know about it or is it only starting to take off now?

  • Investor · Carolina Beach, NC · Member since 2018 · 188 posts · 377 votes
    7y
    No, it’s not big, but definitely growing quickly. There are a LOT of people trying to do it, but the problems that I see is that people try to jump in without a track record of being able to operate on a high level, or they have trouble communicating the value.  It’s not a permanent solution, if you did arbitrage for 10 years and then stopped working, you would have nothing to show for it besides the cash you had made.  That having been said, it’s the fastest way that I know of to generate 80-100k a year with very little money down.  As long as you take that cash and move into ownership or other asset classes, its a viable strategy.  We got into our first arbitrage triplex due for $5 because thats what it cost me to get the owners number from whitepages.com.  He deferred the rent for 3 months, and we used zero interest for a year credit to stage, and were caught up on rent in 2 months, and had the credit paid off in 3.  Still, you have to know how to operate at a high level.

    Originally posted by @Noah Mccurley:

    @Clint Harris

    I’ve been slowly watching the growth of arbitrage over the last few months, especially in social media. Is it big and I just don’t know about it or is it only starting to take off now?

  • Belfast, Northern Ireland · Member since 2018 · 128 posts · 56 votes
    7y

    @Clint Harris

    Ok. It’s always exciting to hear a viable development in real estate that is not the traditional flipping or buy to let. Thanks for your reply.

  • Investor · United States · Member since 2018 · 565 posts · 356 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Clint Harris:

    Sorry guys, in Clint fashion, this is another long post, but there is some gold in here if you’re willing to dig for it.

    It's quite simple man and I wouldn't listen to a lot of this stuff about how rental arbitrage is bad. 

    Arbitrage allows you to make a lot of cashflow which you can then turn around and invest into real estate to build your equity. 

    It's definitely not a house of cards and you aren't limited to becoming a property manager forever. Once you have enough free cashflow you simply hire a property manager, co-host, cleaning staff, PMS, etc. 

    You then become the owner of the business. It's more of a business in the real estate industry that it is investing (technically). But it operates the same you just don't build equity. 

    But to be honest with you why would you want to build equity in single family houses in the first place. In my opinion they are a bad investment. Their value is determined largely by comps not operations like commercial, they are expensive, they require an individual mortgage for each property you own, the buyers and sellers in that space are less sophisticated, etc. 

    You're better off building up your arbitrage business, stacking a ton of capital to then invest in commercial assets. It's called the wealth triangle (high income job + scalable business = capital to invest in cash flowing, appreciating assets with tax benefits) 

    That's what I do at least. 

    Good luck!

  • Investor · Carolina Beach, NC · Member since 2018 · 188 posts · 377 votes
    7y
    Smart man Jason!  Yep, this is our third Arbitrage deal, all multifamily.  Your exactly right, it creates tremendous cash flow that we invest into more STR multifamily, or hopefully soon, self-storage and multifamily.  Congrats on your success!

    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Clint Harris:

    Sorry guys, in Clint fashion, this is another long post, but there is some gold in here if you’re willing to dig for it.

    It's quite simple man and I wouldn't listen to a lot of this stuff about how rental arbitrage is bad. 

    Arbitrage allows you to make a lot of cashflow which you can then turn around and invest into real estate to build your equity. 

    It's definitely not a house of cards and you aren't limited to becoming a property manager forever. Once you have enough free cashflow you simply hire a property manager, co-host, cleaning staff, PMS, etc. 

    You then become the owner of the business. It's more of a business in the real estate industry that it is investing (technically). But it operates the same you just don't build equity. 

    But to be honest with you why would you want to build equity in single family houses in the first place. In my opinion they are a bad investment. Their value is determined largely by comps not operations like commercial, they are expensive, they require an individual mortgage for each property you own, the buyers and sellers in that space are less sophisticated, etc. 

    You're better off building up your arbitrage business, stacking a ton of capital to then invest in commercial assets. It's called the wealth triangle (high income job + scalable business = capital to invest in cash flowing, appreciating assets with tax benefits) 

    That's what I do at least. 

    Good luck!

  • Investor · United States · Member since 2018 · 565 posts · 356 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Clint Harris:
    Smart man Jason!  Yep, this is our third Arbitrage deal, all multifamily.  Your exactly right, it creates tremendous cash flow that we invest into more STR multifamily, or hopefully soon, self-storage and multifamily.  Congrats on your success!

    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Clint Harris:

    Sorry guys, in Clint fashion, this is another long post, but there is some gold in here if you’re willing to dig for it.

    It's quite simple man and I wouldn't listen to a lot of this stuff about how rental arbitrage is bad. 

    Arbitrage allows you to make a lot of cashflow which you can then turn around and invest into real estate to build your equity. 

    It's definitely not a house of cards and you aren't limited to becoming a property manager forever. Once you have enough free cashflow you simply hire a property manager, co-host, cleaning staff, PMS, etc. 

    You then become the owner of the business. It's more of a business in the real estate industry that it is investing (technically). But it operates the same you just don't build equity. 

    But to be honest with you why would you want to build equity in single family houses in the first place. In my opinion they are a bad investment. Their value is determined largely by comps not operations like commercial, they are expensive, they require an individual mortgage for each property you own, the buyers and sellers in that space are less sophisticated, etc. 

    You're better off building up your arbitrage business, stacking a ton of capital to then invest in commercial assets. It's called the wealth triangle (high income job + scalable business = capital to invest in cash flowing, appreciating assets with tax benefits) 

    That's what I do at least. 

    Good luck!

    Thanks man,

    People seem to sneer at the rental arbitrage model which is fine because everyone has their own strategy, risk tolerance, etc. 

    But the facts being presented here just aren't correct. Arbitrage is literally the holy grail for creating a six figure business out of scratch. 

  • Hatfield, PA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 629 votes
    7y
    Yawn

    wash... rinse... repeat...



    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
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