Need advice: does installing interior fire door need permit?

Question

Dear friends at Biggerpockets,

The water heater(located in the laundry room) in my rental recently broke down and needs to be replaced, and the plumbers noticed that the door in between the laundry room and the garage-converted bedroom is not fire-compliant, and they won't replace the water heater until I upgrade the door to a fire door, and have the city inspector signs off on it. Their reason is that while the inspector checks on water heater they'll notice the door for sure and won't give them a pass on water heater.

My question is that does installing a fire door require permit? There is no re-framing of stud wall and we'll just replace the door with exact same dimension.  The house is located in the city of Los Angeles.

I understand permit is important and useful but currently my tenants family don't have any hot water and I want to make the process faster.

Also any ideas for my tenants in this situation will be appreciated too, they are using cold water for everything and boil water to give their newborn baby bath, obviously not convenient.

Thank you for your suggestions in advance,

Yiming

Yiming Li · Answer

@Nik Moushon thank you for your insight!

Update from today:

I called LA DBS and someone told me permit is not really needed for the firedoor, and we should be able to replace water heater with permit, and deal with the door later.

Then I told this to the plumber and they told me they couldn't do the water heater without the firedoor and it's safety related, and told me I can't find other plumbers who are willing to do that. And that prompted me to call other plumbers and I found one that could do the job...

I also consulted a friend who is a general contractor who told me even the permit on water heater is not strictly required, it really depends on me.

For the first plumber, I think since he was dispatched by home warranty, he has to obey some rules.

Nik Moushon · Answer

First off, regardless of what the code says the plumber should not be holding up his work for something that is "against code" but has nothing to do with the water heater. He should do his work and move on. Its very nice of him to mention that he sees something he thinks is out of code but its not his problem, its yours. The inspector could come and not even see the door at all and you just replaced a door for the cost of probably close to $1000 for nothing.

Secondly, I'm an architect (not your architect) and I am not aware of any code in the IRC that requires Laundry rooms to be fire rated rooms. Or any room that has the water heater in it for that matter. WH are put in closets ALL THE TIME. I have never been tagged in any of my designs for my closets not having fire rated doors. The only code that start requiring fire rating for Mechanical Rooms are when the mech units are located under a stair case. Or, as mentioned before, the door is in the fire rated wall that separates the garage from the main house. But both of those codes have nothing to do with a WH specifically or even that its a laundry room. From what you have mentioned it sounds like this plumber is saying that because its a laundry room that it needs a fire rated door and not that the WH is in this specific room....and that is a load of crap.

Thirdly, the only thing that can override the IRC is a more strict city code. and this could be possible but in all the cities I have worked and designed in I have never seen this before. So ask your plumber to cite you a specific code that requiring you to install a fire door. Because a fire door is COMPETENTLY USELESS if the rest of the room isnt fire rated as well. If he cant then tell him to continue the install and you will deal with the inspector and if he still refuses then find someone else.

Yiming Li · Answer

@Kenneth Garrett Thank you for your reply. The reason the plumbers feel strongly about the fire door is that the water heater is located in the laundry room that is directly connected to a living space(the converted garage, even if it is not a garage anymore) and the fire door has to be in place to protect a potential fire coming from the laundry room, no matter it's related to the water heater. It makes sense but I'll double check with the city.

@David M. I'll double check with the plumbers to see if we can turn it on before the inspector comes. Right now I don't know how soon the inspector can come but ideally we want to use the water heater immediately after installation. I feel it will be the plumbers who don't allow me to use until the inspector gives a pass. But I agree with you that they should be confident for the work and relax the rules during nowadays with Covid 19

David M. · Answer

@Yiming Li

Its your investment to run, but if you are that concerned with the plumbers doing an unsafe job, then you probably need a new plumbers.  Its common to having something installed, run it, and the inspectors come later.  With COVID19, the town stopped doing inspections so I couldn't close out my permits on the house I was flipping.  But, I still had to keep the heat on, all the electric, and the water....

Kenneth Garrett · Answer

@Yiming Li

I have two comments regarding this:

If the garage is now a bedroom why does a fire door need to be installed.  See city rule below.  An attached garage requires a separation from the garage to the dwelling.  If the garage is now a bedroom not sure why it needs to be done.

A fire door is an assembly.  It requires the door as well the frame of the door to be rated.

Permit Requirement

The Los Angeles Department of Building and Safety (LADBS) Electronic Permit System (e-Permit system) allows for the issuance of a building permit to replace door(s) with the same size, type and location as the existing door(s). If changes in size (smaller or larger), type, or location are desired, or if the door jam needs replacement, a plan check conducted at the public counter of a LADBS Construction Services Center is required. Structural calculations prepared by an engineer or architect licensed by the State of California are required for structures over 1 story or if the size of the new door(s) significantly exceed that of the existing door(s).

Yiming Li · Answer

Thank you @David M. for the insight. Yes replacing water heater requires permit and the plumbers were concerned about the door and felt obligated to bring the issue to me.

Imagine the plumbers replaced the water heater and tell my tenants to use it before inspector comes to take a look at water heater, and there is some fire related incident happened, then plumbers would be liable. I'll call LA building and safety on Monday to confirm and share the outcome back here.

David M. · Answer

@Yiming Li

I don’t know specifically for your location, but normally repairs or this sort of replacement doesn’t require a permit.  The easiest way to find out is call your municipality’s construction Dept

That being said, your post said the plumbers mentioned the plumbing inspector would fail the inspection because of the door...  so in effect you need a permit.  Again, it’s the municipality’s call whether the job requires a separate construction permit or if it all falls under the plumbing permit.

Also, generally emergency repairs such as this one, especially with a newborn, are exempt from getting the permit issued first, then doing the work.  Usually you can submit the application for the permit and just start working...  you are replacing an existing water heater, not putting in a new one where there wasn’t before

Need advice: does installing interior fire door need permit?

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