Tenant lied about dog (ESA), then brought to house on first day
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I hate to add another "lawyer" reply, but it's advisable. Check with a lawyer, make sure you're protected, then offer their money back and advise them that it will be a waste of their time to continue unpacking. I am 100% sure that you don't want these guys staying.
The law requires that you give due consideration to a reasonable request for accommodation - it doesn't say they get to sneak in a dog and then inform you that they have accommodated themselves.
64 Replies
- Investor · Portland, ME · Member since 2011 · 81 posts · 27 votes9y
Speak with your real estate attorney today.
Hard to say what they were thinking. If it was a service/emotional support dog, most likely they would have disclosed that when they first called you. However, maybe since service/emotional support dogs generally don't require a certification for housing the tenant already knew this and didn't tell you. Again, hard to guess between the two - I'd say call your attorney.
I hate to add another "lawyer" reply, but it's advisable. Check with a lawyer, make sure you're protected, then offer their money back and advise them that it will be a waste of their time to continue unpacking. I am 100% sure that you don't want these guys staying.
The law requires that you give due consideration to a reasonable request for accommodation - it doesn't say they get to sneak in a dog and then inform you that they have accommodated themselves.
- Real Estate Broker · Temecula, CA · Member since 2014 · 994 posts · 783 votes9y
They still needed to have disclosed that to you. Just like you can;t say no to a child, thye still ned to let you know. Also they do need to provide proof that the dog is a support animal. Do your research...
On another note, i do tell my owners who want no pets, that to allow 20 pounds or less will lead to more applicants, and less people hiding dogs from the owner.
It's give and take. A 12m lease is great for the tenant, a M2M lease, great for the landlord. Most tenants would not want a M2M lease, really no security for them. No guarantee that they wouldn't spend a boat load of $ moving all their stuff in the property, just to be given a 30-day notice a couple months down the road. I hear what you're saying though.
Originally posted by @Greg R.:
Originally posted by @Ronda R.:
. . . and do it now. The sooner the better. Don't give them time to go to the doctor/or even online to get an ESA certificate.
They already have one.
(again, not a lawyer, and I live in a different state)
If it's some "certificate" they purchased online, it's meaningless. Maybe Google the place that supposedly issued it.. I bet you get advertisements about how they can help get your pet in places. What they need is a note from a licensed medical / mental health professional (who is actually treating them), dated within the past year, attesting that one of them has a disability that the dog helps with.
- 9yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
@Greg R. , they absolutely should have disclosed this to you beforehand, however they are correct. If this is an Emotional Support Animal, you DO have to allow it. You are allowed to request a physician's prescription for the animal - a real Emotional Support Animal will be prescribed by a physician.
You cannot ask WHY they need it. And you cannot deny a legitimate, prescribed animal. You also cannot charge extra rent because it is not a pet. Similar to a wheelchair, you wouldn't charge extra for a wheelchair-using tenant.
- Investor · Mission, TX · Member since 2017 · 220 posts · 135 votes9yMindy Jensen correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a big difference between a service animal and an emotional support animal? From what I understand you can't just call an animal that or even fall under that protected class without a legitimate prescription (online does not count). Is that the case?
- 9yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
Yes, @Andrew Acuna . You are correct. A Service Animal is one that has been specifically trained to perform a task - think Seeing Eye Dog. You actually cannot ask for proof of prescription for a Service Animal if the need is obvious.
The Emotional Support Animal is not necessarily trained to perform any specific task. They provide emotional support - think a veteran returning from war with PTSD. The animal helps them function.
Unfortunately, the ESA has been rampantly abused. This only hurts the people with the true needs and I really hope these people have a true need.
Again, they should have disclosed to the OP that they had an animal. The lies only paint them in a bad light, and if the OPs town/state allow lease non-renewal, they will surely get a notice of non-renewal at the end of their lease term for the lie.
- Real Estate Investor · Miami Beach, FL · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 8 votes9y
As a dog lover my heart goes out to tenants who have and love their animals and want to give them a good home. May I ask what's your reason for not allowing dogs, and is it all sizes, cats too? Thanks, just curious.
- Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes9y
A question I would ask a lawyer is if you could evict for lying on the rental application.
Not for the dog itself, but the fact that they lied about it, which places you in a position of not being able to adequately prepare for reasonable accommodations.
Maybe you need two weeks or a month of the house being vacant to make those reasonable accommodations. Maybe they find somewhere else to live in the meantime.
- Investor · Mission, TX · Member since 2017 · 220 posts · 135 votes9yCarlos Alger not my property, but I'll tell you why I don't. Others do not share my, or probably your, ability to properly care for and discipline a pet. Cats are terrible and destructive and dogs destroy things if not properly cared for or given enough attention. Not worth it for me! Do you allow all pets?
Originally posted by @Carlos Alger:
As a dog lover my heart goes out to tenants who have and love their animals and want to give them a good home. May I ask what's your reason for not allowing dogs, and is it all sizes, cats too? Thanks, just curious.
I don't need to provide a reason. I am the home owner, and it is my choice whether I allow pets or not.
Let me ask you Carlos, do you sympathize with tenants who lied in their rental application, and deceitfully tricked their way into renting my home?
My decision to not allow pets does not effect anyone's love for their animal, nor does it prevent anyone from providing a "good home" for their pet. There are plenty of pet friendly homes available. Lying and deceit are not justified by someone's love for an animal.
Originally posted by @Chris Mason:
A question I would ask a lawyer is if you could evict for lying on the rental application.
Not for the dog itself, but the fact that they lied about it, which places you in a position of not being able to adequately prepare for reasonable accommodations.
Maybe you need two weeks or a month of the house being vacant to make those reasonable accommodations. Maybe they find somewhere else to live in the meantime.
I talked to three attorneys already, and I haven't got any clear answers yet. A lot of grey areas, "a judge might rule this way, or might rule that way", "depends on the judge". But I'm with you, I think that lying on a application should be grounds for eviction.
How is this any different from lying during a job interview. You tell the interviewer everything that they want to hear, then you show up on your first day of work and it's clear that everything you said in the interview was a lie. You then tell the interviewer "I thought if I told you the truth, you wouldn't hire me, so I felt that I had to lie to get the job". Would the employer be legally bound to keeping the person as an employee?
And this isn't about the dog... I am a disabled combat veteran, and understand that some people need a service dog/ emotional support dog. The fact is that the tenants deliberately set out on a campaign to lie to, and deceive me and my wife. I am not going to go into all the details, but there was also some significant deceit in terms of one of the tenants employment status. He failed to disclose to us that his employment contract expired the day the lease began. So now he is unemployed. I don't think he won't be able to pay the rent, but that's beside the point. He clearly didn't want to disclose that to us, he wanted us to think that he was actively employed, and would be for the foreseeable future.
So in general, these people are lying deceivers, and that is my problem with them. I can't trust them, and those are not the type of people I want as tenants.
- Real Estate Investor · Miami Beach, FL · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 8 votes9y
@Greg R. I support you 100% and I would be pissed if someone lied on my rental application and my hands were tied, and I wish you luck in evicting them because it seems they deserve it!
I was just curious about everyone's reason for allowing animals or not, you know, to gain perspective. We do allow small dogs, but not cats (that urine is killer), and we would consider allowing a larger dog dependent on how an interview goes.
I also want to give you thanks as a veteran for defending our country and for all the sacrifice you've given to keep us safe here at home.
Originally posted by @Carlos Alger:
@Greg R. I support you 100% and I would be pissed if someone lied on my rental application and my hands were tied, and I wish you luck in evicting them because it seems they deserve it!
I was just curious about everyone's reason for allowing animals or not, you know, to gain perspective. We do allow small dogs, but not cats (that urine is killer), and we would consider allowing a larger dog dependent on how an interview goes.
I also want to give you thanks as a veteran for defending our country and for all the sacrifice you've given to keep us safe here at home.
Thanks Carlos. For me it's really about respect for the other tenants. I don't want the other tenants having to deal with loud/ unruly animals. This is a multi family property, so multiple units in close proximity. I've already spent a lot of $ to soundproof common walls; however, it's almost impossible to block out a dog bark.
- Rental Property Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 876 votes9y
FWIW, we allow cats but not dogs in our multifamilies. It's mostly about noise. There are some dogs that bark all day,or every time someone passes in the stairwell, and you have no idea which dogs will, sometimes the owner doesn't even know his dog barks all day. There's an all day barker somewhere on our block, and it drives me crazy, I'd hate to have it in the building.
I've had people beg me to come to their home and see what a good dog they have. The problem is their dog may be good, but then another tenant sees they have a dog and just goes out and gets one. Now I'm in the same position as Greg, forced to be the prick who says "get rid of your dog or get out".
Hi Greg
What type of dog is this? Your insurance may drop you if it's considered a attack bred. This caused a hardship. If you can prove this would cause a hardship you may have a avenue to charge more or force the dog out. Talk to a lawyer.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextC...
If the dog is disruptive and you start getting complaints this may be a way out tool
The companion/emotional support animal is a whole new ball of wax. Yes someone who has such animal is supposed to inform you before they move the animal in ( I say animal as there are different types of pets). Obviously this doesn't happen all the time because people do lie. Granted now it's done.
You can ask for the documents that show the dog is support animal. That's well within your right. Since he decided to open this can of worms you might as well make him jump through some hoops.
And right now you have a lease. What you can do is enforce the lease to the letter. That's well within your rights. So rent is late? Late fees apply and immediately give a 3 day pay of quit notice. If they are late after the 3 day and don't pay on time you can start eviction. And I would immediately do so. Once a eviction goes on record it stays for quite a while
For the future
Here is how I combat the pet issue. First of all in California you are legally allowed to charge two months rent amount as a security deposit for unfurnished rental property. Three months rent amount if the property is furnished.
- I don't even bother with pet deposits. It's pointless anymore. In California all deposits are refundable. I just charge a large enough sum that the tenant has some skin in the game. Just to give you a idea my average deposits run about 3500-4500. That does NOT include the first month rent. And both those figures are less than two month rent amount. Basically it's enough to make the tenant stand up and take notice. But I charge everyone pet or no pet. Simply because people will do what they will.
- I have a required renters insurance policy for 150,000 dollars. And they must name me as interesteded parth or additionally insured. This let's me know if they cancel the policy I get notified. And I send a 3 day resolve or quit notice. After that I can legally start eviction if they do not comply
I no longer do yearly rentals. Everything is now month to month. Most tenants I found are worried about thenrent being raised. And I simply write in the lease that I guarantee no rent raises for 12 months. My last tenant I did that for has been with me for three years so far.
The reason I do only MTM agreements is if the tenant feeds me a line I can at some point simply give 30 day notice and the problem goes away.
Anyway, right now you're sort of stuck. The thing is that if the guy has no job you simply wait till the rent is due and if he doesn't pay immediately start eviction. And you don't stop. Consult a real estate lawyer. There are companies that just handle evictions.
I'm not sure if I can post links to websites but I found one that gives a lot of free info on people. Past addresses people they are related to. It's a plethora of info you can cross reference with a application.
Originally posted by @Rob D.:
Hi Greg
What type of dog is this? Your insurance may drop you if it's considered a attack bred. This caused a hardship. If you can prove this would cause a hardship you may have a avenue to charge more or force the dog out. Talk to a lawyer.
Hello Rob, thanks for your detailed and thorough reply. I don't want to get too specific about this situation in a public forum, but I will definitely talk to my insurance to see if the his breed of dog is considered an "attack dog". Thank you for the link as well, that contained some very useful information.
The real estate attorney that I've been talking with (who is held in high regard), stated that legally the tenant doesn't have to disclose that they have a emotional support animal. I found that a bit odd, but that's what she said.
I have seen the documentation for the animal, it's basically one of those "go online and pay $99" type things, but again, attorney said it was legal.
Very good idea about insurance and M2M... I have two more units on the same property that will be available soon. I think I am going make my lease M2M with a guarantee not to raise the price for 12 months.
We did screen the tenants including a background check, credit, and a check for eviction lists. They came up clean.
I guess for me, it's all a learning experience. I have learned A LOT through this ordeal about my leases and all these types of situations going forward.
Yeah those documents are nothing more than paper mills. Really aren't worth the paper they are written on.
The sad part is that there are responsible pet owners out there. The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff. Since I can't I'm going to apply it equally to everyone. I recently had a applicant who literally choked when I told him my deposit requirements. I'm noticing a lot more people are starting to take more than the "one month rent amount " as deposit.
There will always be someone whom may slip by. Make sure that you don't immediately go full throttle. It may be considered retaliatory. it's almost impossible to defend against it but you can fight back by charging higher deposits as allowed by law.
I completely understand not divulging too much info on a public forum. Good luck.
- Member since 2018 · 10 posts · 2 votes8y
I'm not sure if this applies to ESAs (though I do know that it is not legal to deny tenancy to someone with an ESA), however, when it comes to service dogs (ONLY dogs and the odd miniature horse, can be service animals), handlers are not required to disclose that they have a service dog to a landlord, as service dogs are NOT pets - they are defined as medical equipment under law. This should not be an issue when it comes to a true service animal, who has been trained for 2 years. If this dog displays behaviour that is unlike a trained service dog (destruction of property, aggression, etc) than you, first of all, can be confident it is not a service animal and second, you can require the dog to leave.
You cannot charge extra for the service dog. You can ask 1. Do you have a disability? and 2. What tasks does this dog perform to mitigate your disability?
You cannot ask what the disability is, you cannot ask for proof of training, but what you CAN ask for is written confirmation from a medical authority stating that this person has a disanility and requires the dog for that disability.
I do not know what applies to ESAs however, as ESA and service dogs are very different. I do know that you cannot say no to an ESA. I do believe that there can be legitimate need for ESAs and of course there will be discrimination (and the fakers make it difficult), so I can understand why tenants might worry about that.
I do not generally allow dogs. I'll allow up to two cats. Not all animals cause destruction. I do accommodate service animals, and have never had an issue. I do agree with laws that protect those with disabities from potential discrimination. I've never had to deal with an ESA yet. My concern would be only that ESAs do not require any training whatsoever. I believe many people have a true need for the ESA, however there is no training requirement the way there is for service dogs.
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