Security Deposit Question

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Security Deposit Question

Marcella Sheerin
Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2015 · 5 posts · 5 votes

I was hoping to get help on security deposits...

I am recently getting out of a lease and my landlord is trying to charge me $5K for damages done to the property. She nickeled and dimed me in every way possible (I was not surprised based on how she has been) but the headlines are: she wants to charge me $3K for new carpet (for a 900 sq ft rental). To be fair, my dog was still training when I moved in and she had accidents so I expected that she would need to get new carpet but I lived there 5 years and she had a months rent security deposit to cover any damages ($1,400) so I am surprised that she expects me to pay for it. I think the carpet was expensive and that is why she is mad but why put in nice carpet in a rental? (she approved me having a dog). The other large expense is $1K for plaster/paint damage done due to the roof leaking and the fact that I didn't call it out to her. I had just noticed the issue (it was in the very corner of the room by my closet) right as I was moving out so I didn't mention it to her. Yes, I should have caught it earlier but I think it happened because the gutters weren't cleaned out - is that my fault? Lastly, she also mentioned something about "mouse droppings" this is not something I saw when I was there and I am totally groused out by it. If this is even true... Should I be liable for that? Its a super old house (built 1900ish) and the basement is not completely sealed, the basement floods when it rains (which she is aware of), just everything that goes with an old house etc. If it is true that there were mice in the house, should I be liable for that?

Background: lived there 5 years, landlord has been pretty absent, went almost a year without her checking on the property at times (at least the inside). It's a single family rental home, 900 sq ft in Cincinnati, OH. This is her only rental.

She sent me a detailed letter with everything I owe her and said if I don't pay in the next 2 weeks she will be taking me to small claims court. Does she have a leg to stand on here? Do you think she will actually go to court, and if she does, will she win?

Any helpful tips/hints based on your experience would be realty appreciated.

Thanks!

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Coleman Nelson
Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2014 · 150 posts · 59 votes
10y

It's hard being a judge when only hearing the story from one perspective, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Landlords can recoup damages for things above normal wear and tear. According to the IRS, carpet has a useful life of 5 years. So you may have a pretty good argument that after 5 years of normal wear and tear the carpet would need to be replaced anyway.

For the water leak, I have no idea. Does it say anything in the lease about cleaning gutters? We clean our rental property gutters on a regular basis and don't trust the tenants to do it for multiple reasons. I would think she would have to be able to prove that you knew about it and didn't report it. A good landlord would be in the property quarterly for maintenance inspections and would have caught it.

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  • Jay J.
    ., OH · Member since 2015 · 361 posts · 127 votes
    10y

    Well, what does the lease say..?  

    I mean, I would think if she is planning to take you to court, all these 'demands' would be clearly defined in the lease.

     I'm no expert, but I'd think (since you admit the dog was still learning) you'll be liable for carpet. $3k seems high, but then again, maybe it's really nice carpet.

    $1k for paint..?  and you've been there 5 years..  that kinda sucks that she's making you pay that.

    Water leak, yup probably your fault. Should have told her..  :/

    But again, what's in that legal document you signed....?

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  • Coleman Nelson
    Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2014 · 150 posts · 59 votes
    10y

    It's hard being a judge when only hearing the story from one perspective, but I'll throw in my 2 cents.

    Landlords can recoup damages for things above normal wear and tear. According to the IRS, carpet has a useful life of 5 years. So you may have a pretty good argument that after 5 years of normal wear and tear the carpet would need to be replaced anyway.

    For the water leak, I have no idea. Does it say anything in the lease about cleaning gutters? We clean our rental property gutters on a regular basis and don't trust the tenants to do it for multiple reasons. I would think she would have to be able to prove that you knew about it and didn't report it. A good landlord would be in the property quarterly for maintenance inspections and would have caught it.

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  • Jay J.
    ., OH · Member since 2015 · 361 posts · 127 votes
    10y

    Sorry, I re-read the post and I see the $1k is for the leak..  well, that still stinks, but it could be your responsibility..  :/

    (As for the mouse poop, where was your dog when all this was happening?!?)

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  • Tim JacobPro Member
    Real Estate Agent · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 520 posts · 379 votes
    10y

    I think for the carpet she has a legitimate reason to take your 1400 though over 5 years you might argue it should be replaced regardless of whether there are pet stains due to ordinary wear and tear.   Thats a good point to nlt have expensive carpet in a rental.  Especially if you allow pets.  Otherwise I dont think she has any claim from what your telling me.  If you were hoarding which caused the rats maybe.  How we should know though if she never came by the place.

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  • Austin Youmans
    Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2014 · 359 posts · 143 votes
    10y

    In my opinion she wouldn't win if she did take you to small claims but I will be interested to see what more experienced people think.

    life expectancy of carpet is 5 years so if the carpet was new when you moved in after 5 years you would not have to pay for this as the life expectancy is up anyways. (seems super expensive for carpet though)

    I would say the roof leak is your fault for not reporting. The mice assuming there is not food left out everywhere would not be your fault as you did not even know about it. Not sure what a court would say about it though.

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  • Robert Melcher
    Residential Real Estate Broker · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 506 posts · 311 votes
    10y

    charges for fully depreciated items cannot be supported in court.  Anything past its useable life at the end of your occupancy should be replaced IF YOU LEFT THEM CLEAN AND UNDAMAGED.  

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  • Max T.
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    She can't collect on the carpet as it is past its normal lifespan, as other posters have said.

    She can charge you for the leak repair if you didn't let her know about it as soon as you became aware of it. The problem likely got worse over time.

    She can charge you for the mouse droppings, just like any other dirt/mess. Why didn't you clean that up before leaving?

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  • Marcella Sheerin
    OP
    Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2015 · 5 posts · 5 votes
    10y

    thank you all for the information, I really appreciate all the insight! Open to more thoughts as well! 

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  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    10y

    @Marcella Sheerin, read through your lease thoroughly. Are you breaking the lease? Are you moving out early? If so, then she might be able to charge you an extra month's rent. If you are leaving at the end of your lease, she isn't going to be able to charge you for that. Did you give proper notice? 

    There are many landlords out there who are not familiar with the landlord tenant laws, and don't know what they can and cannot charge you. Fortunately for you, the judge will most certainly be familiar with them. You should read them, too and find out what her rights are as well as your rights. 

    Perhaps pointing out that she can't charge you for carpet will get the carpet charges dropped. I don't see why you would be responsible for a leaking ceiling, but someone suggested to read your lease to see if you were responsible for cleaning the gutters. 

    Keep us posted.

    [email protected]Podcast Guest on Show #261
    BiggerPockets
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  • Ben W.
    Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2014 · 97 posts · 27 votes
    10y

    @Mindy Jensen says most things that I would.  I am a landlord of about 150 single family houses.  Here are my comments:

    Carpet:  if you trashed it, is it all throughout?  If only in certain spots, then prorated.  BUT, a residence is subject to Normal wear and tear.  I do disagree with others comments about not being able to charge for fully depreciated items in a house.  What if I had a house that I owned for 50 years and the house was fully depreciated.  If someone damaged the hardwood floors, walls or other areas, I would, AND COULD, charge for damage to such.  It is just a matter of supporting what the replacement and repairs will be.  I have WON in court on this, many times.

    Charges for early termination:  Not if you left at end of lease term.  Were you on month to month and gave proper notice?  Should not be able to charge you unless you violated notice terms.

    Leak:  We would not normally charge for that.  We assume that tenants do not give notice to landlords unless it is really impacting them.  If there was significant damage that you did or further exasperated the issue, we might charge you.

    Rodents:  questionable.  Probably chargeable as it appears that you did not clean the place well enough to notice this issue, either during the term of your lease, or upon moving out.

    I applaud you for reaching out to this community.  We don't see many from the other side on here.  Good for you!!

    Ben

    Wham Properties

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Marcella Sheerin It's my opinion that's she attempting to royally rip you off.  

    First, here is the law:

    http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/5321.16v1

    Did she send you the itemization within 30 days of moving out?

    If she didn't she has to give you back your deposit, plus the amount wrongfully withheld.  So, if she didn't have the right to it at all, she'd have to give you twice your deposit.  And even if she held only some of it that she shouldn't have, she will have to give you back twice what she withheld that she shouldn't have withheld.

    So, she's taking a chance you won't sue her, because whatever the judge says she withheld that she shouldn't have, will cost her twice as much as a penalty for doing so.

    In small claims court in Ohio, the max you can sue for is $3,000.  She can't sue you for everything she wants to sue you for anyway, as it would add up to $3600, on top of your deposit.

    Plus, the most anyone can counter-sue for is $3,000.  So, if you sue her, she can only counter-sue for $3,000.

    Plus, she can't charge you for the carpet.  And I don't believe she can charge you for the damage to the wall.  And if you didn't see the damage, you didn't see it.  Don't start saying you "should have seen it."  She has the right by law to do inspections.  If you didn't see it, you didn't have a responsibility to tell her about something you didn't know about.  

    I'd go on the offensive.  She may be bold enough to send this to a collector, without even going to court.  So, if I was you, I'd concurrently send her a demand letter for your full deposit back, and file in small claims court yourself for $3,000.

    In the letter, I'd just write:

    Dear Landlady,

    This is a written demand for my full deposit back, which you have withheld illegally.  Please send it to my address below within 7 days.

    Sincerely,

    You

    Court will expect you to have asked for the money back first.  I'd want to beat her to the punch as far as getting this in court before she can try sending it to a collector.  

    I would not hire a lawyer.  When you fill out the small claims court form, just put on it that you are asking for "$3,000 which should include twice your deposit and any court fees and punitive damages allowed."

    You don't have to be perfect in what you ask for.  The judge will only give you what you deserve.  It just gives the judge the option of giving you the full amount.

    In court just print out the law above.  And tell the judge that you think all the charges are bogus, and that you lived there for five years and the carpet should have used up it's life expectancy, and that you cleaned.  I'd keep it really short and sweet.  Let him/her ask you questions if they want to.

    At least that way, the judge will make the decision if you owe anything.  But, I bet you will at least get most of your deposit back, and maybe even more.

    But, I think you should do this first thing Monday morning (send the letter and file in court) and don't respond at all to the landlady.

    I've helped people do this several times and the judges have always been fair.

    Here's the small claims court site:

    http://www.ohiolegalservices.org/public/legal_prob...

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    And by the way, she was supposed to pay you interest on your deposit every year.  Did she do that?

    0Reply
  • Marcella Sheerin
    OP
    Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2015 · 5 posts · 5 votes
    10y

    Thank you all so much for the help!! I gave her notice in December and my lease ended April 15th so I gave her plenty of notice. I actually asked her if she would let me out of my lease a month early and she said no, which was fine and I continued to pay my rent. What she is saying I owe her now is one months rent because she can't rent the place out right away. I would think that after 5 years she would expect to spend some time making updates and I don't think she can make me pay an additional months rent, but I don't know that for certain at all. She sent me another text today saying "I'm sorry you have chosen this route. It is not in your best interest to act like these problems don't exist. You've cost me a lot of money. The internal problems I've quoted you are responsible for and are quoted at wholesale. Read your contract. I'll expect your check in the mail." 

    I don't feel like the claims she is making are within reason and even totally legitimate. I am not sure how this one is going to end up! 

    Again, thank you so much for all the details I really appreciate everyone's insight!!

    1Reply
  • Rich N.Pro Member
    Investor · Haverhill, MA · Member since 2015 · 761 posts · 328 votes
    10y

    as others have said, you need to read your contract.  For example, in my state, landlords can not charge for water use in a multiple family building, but in a single family, you can have the tenant pay.

    Same with the maintenance like cutting grass or cleaning gutters...if its allowable (by law) and its in the lease, then you are responsible to do it, so if its in the contract, you could on the hook for the leak and rats.

    The extra month after you left is not chargeable.  The 5 years old carpet is also a no go.

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  • Jeff B.
    Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Claims for damages will be based upon 'actual replacement costs', not the value of what was previously installed.  Receipts are required.

    Poor judgement in using high value // priced carpets, but that's not any consideration on the issues.

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  • Account Closed
    San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Marcella Sheerin She can't charge you for extra rent after you moved out.  The only time a landlord can charge a tenant rent after they move out, is if they broke their lease.  You didn't break your lease.

    At this point, I'd stop contact, except for sending her a demand letter.  Be sure you send it with delivery confirmation, like USPS letter with delivery confirmation.  I preferred using this service, because the mailman just scans it when he puts it in the box.  They can't avoid signing for it, and you have proof it was delivered.

    She's obviously not going to be reasonable.  No doubt, she has spent your deposit.

    Be sure and include interest on your deposit in your claim, if she didn't pay you your interest every year.

    Don't be afraid of small claims court.  She won't be able to afford an attorney, most likely either.  And even if she brings one, the law is the law.  Judges are not stupid and they're fair, in my experience.  You can always just say, "Your Honor, I just don't think this is right and I am going to trust you to make a fair decision."  Good luck!

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