Advice/Thoughts needed: eliminating PMI with payment from HELOC

Advice/Thoughts needed: eliminating PMI with payment from HELOC

Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 0 votes
Greetings! Scenario: Bank A holds my mortgage with a 2.875% interest rate. My mortgage has private mortgage insurance (PMI) on it with a monthly charge of $91. My current LTV is approx. 45%. Bank B holds my HELOC with a adjustable interest rate, currently set at 4%. Currently zero balance. Upon any draw from the HELOC, required monthly payments are 1% of the remaining balance (i.e. $10k balance would require a $100 payment for Month 1, then $99 payment Month 2, etc..). So, I called Bank A to inquire about eliminating my PMI. They told me that my loan balance would have to be down to a certain point, then PMI will drop off automatically. To get to that certain point, I can either wait till it naturally occurs by making my normal monthly mortgage payments, or I could accelerate it to that point by making an additional principle payment of about $8900 now. So I thought about it: what if I draw $8900 from my HELOC to use to pay down my mortgage balance. That would eliminate my PMI (saving 91 monthly), and I would be paying $89 a month ($30 of which would be interest charge). So, I'd be paying down my HELOC principle balance every month (as required). The way I see it, is that I'd be effectively replacing a $91 interest charge with a $30 interest charge. And at the same time, I'd be paying down the principle on both loans, thus reducing the interest charges on those as well. I have a habit of getting "analysis paralysis" and I think I'm at that point now. Does anyone have any thoughts/advice about this? Am I thinking about it right? Sorry for the long post, just wanted to be thorough. Many thanks! Andrew
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Lender · Bellevue WA & Orange County, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y

FHA loans in the past had a rule where you had to pay down your loan to 78% of what you bought it for ( not your loan amount relative to today's market value) or 5 years min monthly PMI whichever is longer.

What probably has happened is the market in FL has taken off considerably so while you have 45% LTV based on your current market valuation your LTV based on your value in FHA's system probably hasn't reached 78% of the price you originally paid for the property otherwise your PMI would have ceased already (This assumes you still have the original loan from 2010 and you have not refinanced into a new FHA loan).

Keep in mind if you've refinanced your original FHA purchase loan from when you bought it with another FHA loan (FHA refinance AKA FHA streamline refi) then you will not be grand fathered into your old FHA guidelines because the current guidelines require:

- min 11 years or 78% LTV based on purchase price only if you put down 10% or more (which .001% of people who use FHA usually do)

- otherwise FHA PMI is now for the life of the loan, until paid off completely, or refinance, or property is sold

Since its been longer than 5 years (you bought in 2010) you should be able to pay it down to 78% of the purchase price to remove FHA's PMI automatically (or call them to inform them you paid it down to 78%).

The scenario on whether if its worth it to pay down your first loan with the HELOC isnt a simple one if you want to get technical because:

- PMI and whether its a write off is based on your tax bracket and if you make more than 110k in AGI or adjusted gross income you may not be able to write it off so this affects the decision as well

- the rate on your first loan

- the rate on your second loan

- usually fee's on HELOC's are $0 because banks want your business, but there are HELOC's out there that cost a couple grand to open so be mindful of this

If the net at the end of the day is positive it could be worth it or it may not be as well.

Hope that helped.

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  • Investor · San Jose, CA, Bellevue, WA · Member since 2016 · 327 posts · 257 votes
    9y
    That all sounds good, but first....why do you have pmi when you're only at 45% ltv?
  • Real Estate Agent/Investor · Peoria, AZ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y
    Yeah, that PMI should come off automatically at 78% and you can ask the lender to remove it when you have 80% LTV.
  • Corby GoadeBusiness Member
    Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    Maybe you meant 45% DTI?

    Another thought- you have a HELOC, so there is some equity there. If you think it's possible you have 20%, why not pay for a new appraisal and be done with it altogether?

  • Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Christian Wathne @Bob Okenwa @Corby Goade thanks all for the replies. The loan originated in 2010, and when I called the bank they said that because it was an FHA loan, certain rules apply to remove the PMI. One was that the loan had to age at least 5 years, and another was that the balance had to reach a certain point (which I didn't ask how it was calculated). I even asked them if I could pay for a bank-approved appraiser to make a value judgement on the property to show them the current LTV, but they declined. We purchased for $238k and estimated value now is around 415-430k. Outstanding loan balance is around 196k. I even argued with them that the raw land value itself is worth about $250k. It sounds like that it's all because it's an FHA loan that orginated during/right after the mortgage industry reform?

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Andrew K.,

    Have someone go over your loan papers with you. You may need to refinance to eliminate PMI.

    Remember that your HELOC counts against your total LTV. Just because it's not the 1st loan doesn't mean it doesn't count against your equity.

  • Melvin ListBusiness Member
    Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 381 votes
    9y

    @Andrew K. the loan to value is based on your original purchase price and not your current value. Once your loan hits 78% or the original purchase price the lender will drop the mortgage insurance. If you are currently at a fixed rate in the 2's i would not even consider a refinance so using the HELOC would be the way to go.

    C2 Financial
  • Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Melvin List Ahh! Thanks Melvin, I get it now. I was thinking about the LTV all wrong!

    @David Dachtera 

    "Remember that your HELOC counts against your total LTV. Just because it's not the 1st loan doesn't mean it doesn't count against your equity."

    David, does that mean that if I debit my HELOC $8900 and then credit my mortgage $8900, that it would be a "wash" from an LTV standpoint since I'm not really reducing my LTV on the property, and the PMI would stand, because in effect, I'm not reducing the total lien on the property? But on the other hand, Bank A holds the superior note, so would they really care? Thanks for bearing with my ignorance on this one, gentlemen!

  • Melvin ListBusiness Member
    Lender · Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 381 votes
    9y

    @Andrew K. The second mortgage makes up your (CLTV) combined loan to value. The loans LTV and your total CLTV are separate. The Mi will only be based on your LTV and not your CLTV. Hope that helps!

    C2 Financial
  • Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Melvin List That helps a lot! Thanks for clarifying that, Melvin. Thanks everyone for your responses!

  • Investor · Towson, MD · Member since 2014 · 472 posts · 257 votes
    9y
    Maybe I missed something, but if you take out a HELOC and 100% of the funds go to pay down your mortgage to eliminate your PMI, then you're replacing a $91 PMI for an $89 HELOC. And that assumes the HELOC will be paid off at the exact same amount of time in which you would've paid off the PMI. Paying $89 per month, how many months will it take you to pay off the HELOC? How many more months of the PMI do you have? Which ever is greater, that's what you go with. I haven't run the numbers, or seen all the information, but I doubt it would be worth your time.
  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Melvin List,

    His HELOC lender WILL be concerned about his CLTV (which around here is known as "Chicago Land TV").

  • Tampa, FL · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    @Michael Cohen thank you for this point, Michael. I still have about 30 months more of PMI payments. Just doing a simple payoff calculation, if I borrowed $8900 from the HELOC, it would take about 121 monthly payments of $90 to pay it off with a total interest charge accrual of $1916.

    So, if I did this... borrow $8900 from HELOC to pay down mortgage, I would be paying $90/m for 10 years (I would almost certainly try to pay it down quicker) to the HELOC balance, accruing $1916 in interest charges, then saving $91/m for 30 months ($91 x 30 = $2730). Plus, my new outstanding mortgage balance would be reduced by $8900, so the portion of the new monthly mortgage payment going to interest would be reduced about $22/m. Does this sound right?

  • Investor · Towson, MD · Member since 2014 · 472 posts · 257 votes
    9y

    I still don't see value in taking out an HELOC in order to reduce your payments a little bit for 10 years when it can be completely paid off in 2.5 years. Seems backward - you're actually slowing down your payoff date. Plus all of this ignores the fees required to take out an HELOC and while I'm not a banker, I assume it's a couple of thousand dollars. There doesn't seem to be any financial gain to be had, nor help you reduce your overhead quicker.

  • Lender · Bellevue WA & Orange County, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    FHA loans in the past had a rule where you had to pay down your loan to 78% of what you bought it for ( not your loan amount relative to today's market value) or 5 years min monthly PMI whichever is longer.

    What probably has happened is the market in FL has taken off considerably so while you have 45% LTV based on your current market valuation your LTV based on your value in FHA's system probably hasn't reached 78% of the price you originally paid for the property otherwise your PMI would have ceased already (This assumes you still have the original loan from 2010 and you have not refinanced into a new FHA loan).

    Keep in mind if you've refinanced your original FHA purchase loan from when you bought it with another FHA loan (FHA refinance AKA FHA streamline refi) then you will not be grand fathered into your old FHA guidelines because the current guidelines require:

    - min 11 years or 78% LTV based on purchase price only if you put down 10% or more (which .001% of people who use FHA usually do)

    - otherwise FHA PMI is now for the life of the loan, until paid off completely, or refinance, or property is sold

    Since its been longer than 5 years (you bought in 2010) you should be able to pay it down to 78% of the purchase price to remove FHA's PMI automatically (or call them to inform them you paid it down to 78%).

    The scenario on whether if its worth it to pay down your first loan with the HELOC isnt a simple one if you want to get technical because:

    - PMI and whether its a write off is based on your tax bracket and if you make more than 110k in AGI or adjusted gross income you may not be able to write it off so this affects the decision as well

    - the rate on your first loan

    - the rate on your second loan

    - usually fee's on HELOC's are $0 because banks want your business, but there are HELOC's out there that cost a couple grand to open so be mindful of this

    If the net at the end of the day is positive it could be worth it or it may not be as well.

    Hope that helped.

  • Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 885 votes
    9y

    @Albert Bui That is good detail.

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