Asset Protection for Real Estate Investors

Asset Protection for Real Estate Investors

Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes

Hello BP members and investors. I am an Asset Protection Attorney specifically for Real Estate Investors. I see lots of questions on this topic about how to structure your companies and protect your investments, but not a specific forum entitled Asset Protection, which is what we are all talking about. 

Asset Protection works by taking away the economic incentive for somebody and their attorney to sue you. The reality is that investors will face a lawsuit in their lifetime: it’s not a matter of IF but WHEN am I going to get sued?

A properly established plan performs three primary functions: lawsuit deterrence, settlement negotiation leverage and/or placing your assets out of the reach of a legal opponent.

You do this by:
- Insurance
- Using LLC's
- Combining them with Trusts
- Owning NOTHING personally in your name (the Rich own nothing, but control everything).
- Use separate legal tools
- DON'T FLAUNT YOUR WEALTH

The main ways clients use their planning are:
1. Reducing Fear
2. Deter Lawsuits
3. To focus their Financial & Estate Planning
4. To re-focus their efforts on their money making activity.

I invite everybody from BP newbies trying to get started, to your richest investor to chime in and ask any questions, and offer up their own experiences and protection plans. We are all in the investment game together, and will all face the same problems as we grow our assets and legacies. Asset Protection is NOT a one size fits all strategy, but is specific for each person per their current assets, worth, goals, and what they invest in. 

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Encinitas, CA · Member since 2011 · 192 posts · 252 votes
8y

My view is that you should first ask yourself some questions before seeking professional help for asset protection.

1.    What is your tolerance for risk? Younger folks in the process of building their portfolio are likely to accept a higher level of risk than older folks with more established estates. Some folks are fearful by nature and sleep better knowing they have done everything they can to protect themselves, even though there is a significant cost. If so, you should accept and be comfortable that you are paying in large part because of your fear.

2.    What kind of risk are you creating based on the nature of your real estate activities? Are you a mom and pop landlord whose most likely risk is a premises liability claim likely covered by insurance or a small claims suit for return of a security deposit? Or are you a slumlord creating hazardous conditions at your property and racially discriminating against your tenants? If you are a flipper are you hiring qualified licensed/knowledgeable team members who know what they are doing or are you doing shoddy work without permits and not telling your buyers. Only by understanding the risk inherent in your activities are you then able to engage in an objective cost/benefit analysis for paying for asset protection.

3. How well do you manage risk? Do you have partners, investors, employees, significant others, tenants, borrowers, lenders, etc. where resentment tends to build in your relationships or are you on top of communications and fair in your dealings? Do you read the contracts you sign or do you just click away without reading when you get sent a document via docusign? Are you good at due diligence and do you understand what you are doing as a real estate investor? Understand and assess who is most likely to make a claim against you and why. Then you can get some context for an asset protection plan that might fit you. Try not to get caught up in fear based sales pitches.

4. Do you already have in place an estate, financial or tax plan? IMHO asset protection planning is best implemented as an adjunct to a larger estate, financial or tax plan, not as a substitute.

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  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    8y

    In regards to Series LLC's and states that recognize them or not, we have discussed the issue comes down to each specific state recognizing the "internal liability shield."

    For the State of Oregon recognizing internal liability shield. The long end of the story is YES, Oregon does by statute recognizes internal liability shield for owners / members of an LLC. So even though Oregon does not have a Series LLC, the state of Oregon does recognize internal liability shields. see OR statute below to be comforted.

    ORS 63.165(1)(2)

    (1)the debts, obligations, and liabilities of LLC, whether arising in contract, tort or otherwise, are SOLELY the debts, obligations and liabilities of the LLC. A member or manager is NOT PERSONALLY LIABLE for a a debt, obligation or liability of the LLC solely by reason of being or acting as a member or manager.

    (2)The failure of a LLC to observe the usual formalities or requirements relating the exercise of its LLC powers or management of its business is NOT a ground for imposing perusal liability on the members or managers for liability of the LLC. [1993 c. 173 section35; 1999 c.86 section 10.]

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    8y

    The same goes for Washington State. See RCW 25.15.126. Though Washington State does not have a statutory Series LLC to create in the state, it does recognize the internal liability shield offered by LLCs on its members.

    So, though Washington does not have a Series LLC, the State of Washington does recognize the internal liability shield principle, and that is what the courts would be looking at if you created an out of State Series LLC lets say in TX or NV or DE, and owned a property in WA and were sued in WA. The personal liability shield of the Series LLC would still be upheld so long as its formalities were followed. Just like a standard LLC.

  • Weston, FL · Member since 2015 · 1 post · 0 votes
    8y

    Greetings:

    I'm just starting out, located in South Florida (Broward), and seek to develop my team. I'm looking for an asset protection attorney who specializes in real estate investing and a similarly experienced source who can recommend the right insurance coverage. No rental assets yet, however, my plan is to accumulate the control of rental properties in various states. Can anyone recommend points of contact for the team I need that will assist my proper organization from the outset?

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    8y

    @David Morton you can contact myself or @Scott Smith we are both AP Attorney's that specialize in AP for REIs and represent clients nationwide. Listen to podcast 109 on BP. It is good to start off right and set yourself up with a strong team (Legal, CPA, Agents) from the very beginning. 

    I see you are from FL. We have lots of FL clients. This forum is not so much a team building forum as it is specifically for education in AP and how to go about it, and what it is etc. But thank you for contributing. 

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    8y

    The same goes for Florida. See  Title XXXVI Business Organization FL 605.04093. 

    The interesting thing about FL is the State Legislature just recently took a vote to not add a Series LLC as an option in FL. BUT, the reason for it is that they did not think that the small business owners were "competent enough to use them yet." So, I see within the next election cycles this will be revisted and we will soon see FL as being another state competing for Series LLC business.

    Though Florida does not have a statutory Series LLC to create in the state, it does recognize the internal liability shield offered by LLCs on its members.

    So, though Florida does not have a Series LLC, the State of Florida does recognize the internal liability shield principle, and that is what the courts would be looking at if you created an out of State Series LLC lets say in TX or NV or DE, or any of the 13 states, and owned a property in FL and were sued in FL. The personal liability shield of the Series LLC would still be upheld so long as its formalities were followed. Just like a standard LLC.

  • Attorney · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2015 · 372 posts · 176 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Brian Bradley:

    The same goes for Florida. See  Title XXXVI Business Organization FL 605.04093. 

    The interesting thing about FL is the State Legislature just recently took a vote to not add a Series LLC as an option in FL. BUT, the reason for it is that they did not think that the small business owners were "competent enough to use them yet." So, I see within the next election cycles this will be revisted and we will soon see FL as being another state competing for Series LLC business.

    Though Florida does not have a statutory Series LLC to create in the state, it does recognize the internal liability shield offered by LLCs on its members.

    So, though Florida does not have a Series LLC, the State of Florida does recognize the internal liability shield principle, and that is what the courts would be looking at if you created an out of State Series LLC lets say in TX or NV or DE, or any of the 13 states, and owned a property in FL and were sued in FL. The personal liability shield of the Series LLC would still be upheld so long as its formalities were followed. Just like a standard LLC.

     Good to know about Florida.

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    Just finished a Continuing Legal Education Course (CLE) specifically for Series LLC. Some really great updated info. For example, 17 states now have Series LLC,

    ALOS, FL now recognized the Series LLC and will uphold another states Series LLC.

    Also, Know which states require Notice for Series LLC. Some states like IL requires customers to be on notice to uphold the Series. Know what the state you created your series in what their notice laws are. An good example and practice of Notice for Series LLC's is: Leases should say “ABA, LLC – Series A” (this is the name of the company the tenant is contracting with. Same with vendor contractors, etc. 

    And, don't forget that when you create your Series LLC, just like any LLC, you MUST elect how yo are going to be taxed by the government. Partnership, SCorp, etc. Don't forget to talk to your CPA about what to elect.

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    Now, Lets say you have a TX Series LLC, but have invested in one of the states that does not recognize the Series LLC and have not updated their LLC Statutes, and their State Courts have not mentioned a series.

    What do you do to protect yourself or your client if sued in that state?

    Try this.

    Keep separate books and accounts, each series should have its own name, register only that series as the foreign entity doing business in that state, all contracts should be properly signed by that Series only giving notice. Document very well, capitalize adequately the name of the series that is doing business. 

    You want to demonstrate to the extreme your intent to separate the series. 

  • Investor · Broward County, FL · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 938 votes
    7y

    Some of the issues with series LLC:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2ucQTdeGRQ

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    @Mike S. good video. Just need to take into context of what he is saying regarding how to stay in compliance. if you watch the video you posted again, the presenter stated "unless you use a land trust" which is what we use in connection with the Series LLC to transfer title. So, as even the presented you posted stated, you may have issues if not set up correctly by using a land trust. With the issues of investing outside the state of those that recognize the, 17 states recognize them, but the legal side of things is the states of those that do not have series LLC have what is called LLC internal liability shields. The states will use the Internal liability shields of the state where sued. So the analysis of each state will be what are the LLC internal liability shields of that state where sued.  I have posted such state code liability shields above to show as examples. And, you do not want to commingle accounts, but keep very good and detailed accounting. Which is what you do with any business structure. The video you posted is not saying to not use Series LLC, but what to do to set them up and operate to stay in compliance. I think a lot of people thing you create a business and just set it and forget it, and do not consider the compliance and regulation issues that must be followed when starting companies. Hence where veil piercing and commingling issues arise , since the business manager did not follow compliance issues and work with their team (CPA and lawyers) to maintain compliance.  

  • Investor · Broward County, FL · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 938 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Brian Bradley:

    @Mike S. The video you posted is not saying to not use Series LLC, but what to do to set them up and operate to stay in compliance.

    I agree, that is #3 video. #1 and #2 are discussing the pro of the series LLC.

    I just wanted to give some perspective to the series LLC subject. Like any other entity, there are pro and cons for each, and everyone should do due diligence to assess if it is right for them.

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y
    Just to put perspective of the misconception of the Series LLC being a new entity, it is not. It was first created in 1996 in Delaware. 22 years ago. The traditional LLC first became available in Wyoming in 1977, but most other states did not follow suit until the 1990s). The next state was Delaware in 1991 to enact the LLC. In 1994/5 CA. It was not until 1996 that all states had a LLC. The same year the Series LLC was statutorily crested. So it’s interesting how people quickly fall in love with the traditional LLC thinking it’s been around forever but fairly after the creation of the LLC in most states, the series LLC immediately came in the game. In fact just one year after CA codified the traditional LLC. Just a quick timeline of history and the LLC relating to the misconception of the “novelty” of the Series LLC.
  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    Most if not all the conversations on these forums are about Domestic protection systems. (LP, S-Corps, LLCs, Series LLC, Trusts etc). But most don't realize other options also exists and should be considered. Especially once you reach the $1.5 MM net worth or more level.

    Domestic VS Offshore Asset Protection: Whats the differences and why should you care? 

    Domestic AP is any protection that relies on the laws of the U.S. for its security. You will read plenty about new domestic asset protection system, designed to imitate stronger and more effective offshore jurisdictions. As far as that goes, a good onshore asset protection plan is better than nothing at all. They are simple to set up, easy to implement and sometimes less expensive than international plans. BUT, that simplicity comes with a downside. The simple fact is that a purely domestic asset protection plan is less effective than a offshore plan. For complete asset protection, its best that your domestic asset protection plan be accompanied by a foreign component set up in a jurisdiction out of the U.S.

    Any asset protection system based fully within the U.S. will always run the risk that a U.S. judge or court determines that the plan should be pierced or invalidated. This is an unavoidable inherent risk of all domestic plans. Contrast this with a Cook Island Asset Protection Trust where it is statutorily prohibited from recognizing any court order from any outside jurisdiction, including the U.S. This is the major differences and sums up the reason why an Offshore system is proven stronger.

    The best system is to utilize both a domestic asset protection component together with a carefully crafted Cook Island Foreign Trust to help build a legal fortress, keeping them safe and out of the grasp of predatory creditors and the U.S. proactive judges. You do this by creating legal separation from you and your assets with a domestic (Asset Management Limited Partnership, or Series LLC, or Traditional LLC) and then ‘internationalizing' those assets into a "Bridge Trust" where if you are threatened by an unanticipated lawsuit or legal action, those assets cross the Bridge to the protection of the Cook islands.

    By being proactive, and using BOTH U.S. tools and carefully crafted trust which can be moved fully offshore with pre-established triggers, you get the benefit of both jurisdictions. 

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    I am very excited. I’m gonna be teaching a national CLE seminar “continuing legal education” for attorneys on asset protection for the national academy of CLE.

  • Rental Property Investor · Jamaica, NY · Member since 2018 · 51 posts · 7 votes
    7y

    Hi to all, I have a property going my name under contract, I got to put in trust then form a llc?

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    For CA residents, or for any person looking for asset protection, we have talked about the point that no one size fits all system exists for any person. Asset Protection systems are all personal and passed on you facts. Asset Protection is not about exempting assets from estate tax and avoiding probate, which has nothing to do with asset protection from creditors and lawsuits. And asset protection is not about taxes, otherwise that would be fraud. A revocable living trust does nothing to protect your assets from liability. If you simply have insurance and a living trust, you need to talk to an asset protection attorney.

    Most asset protection planning is limited, especially in CA where courts have pierced the veil of LLCs set ups for asset protection. If you are living in CA, you are living in a judicial hellhole that ranked #1 by NFIB the last 3 years in a row. If your protection is "limited" as the title implies with LLC, (Limited Liability Company) and CA is a horrible state for litigation and taxes, and judges give very little respect to elaborate asset protection schemes to protect debtors (you), what option do you have? And if you are not a resident of CA, this post still applies to you.

    In any asset protection system in any state, but especially for those in CA, I personally would look first towards State Exemptions and what assets I can exempt, then, after I have maxed out my exemption options with my assets, I would then look at what additional asset protection system I need to set up to protect the rest such as (DSTs, LLCs, SLLCs, Asset Protection Trust domestic or foreign,)

    An exemption is a legal right under Federal or State Law to have certain assets unavailable to creditors under any circumstances. Every state has exemptions. Talk to your asset protection lawyer for your state asset exemptions. The benefit of exemptions is that they are NOT an asset transfer, therefore cannot be fraudulent or voidable. Think of each states homestead laws. Some sates like TX and FL have amazing homestead laws.

    The interesting thing is, despite how bad of a state like CA is for asset protection and taxes, CA actually has VERY STRONG and UNIQUE asset protection opportunities via its CA State Exemptions for Personal Retirement Plans (PPR) found under California Civil Code 704.115.

    When you actually compare these exemptions to the other States exemptions that are considered the strongest for asset protection, (TX, NV, FL) - CA is actually stronger as it relates to exemptions and private retirement plans.

    Under CCCP section 704.115 no other state have an UNLIMITED state exemption for private retirement plans such as CA. In fact, the federal retirement law ERISA was modeled after it and has been around and tested in court for many years.

    Yes it is hard to believe. Despite having horrible, if not the worst, climate for taxes and litigation, there is actually something CA offers its residents for protection that can convince small, mid sized business owners and investors to stay in CA and not move out of the state. Or to set up out of state asset protection systems that CA Judges cannot stand if challenged in court.

    By having an experienced lawyer familiar with PRP or PRTs (interchangeably used) to properly draft and maintain a CA Private Retirement Plan (PRP) you can protect your assets via exemption. And not the limited protection under a charging order.

    The surprising fact also is that CA is the ONLY state with an exempt private retirement plan (PRP).

    The point is, even for you non CA residents is when talking about or considering an asset protection system, the smartest and wealthiest clients

    1. Have insurance but don’t solely rely on their insurance for protection,

    2. Pick up ALL their state and federal exemption they are entitled to, and

    3. Then they set up some kind of asset protection entities that they need to cover the rest of the non-exempt assets, be it offshore foreign asset protection trusts, DSTs, or LLCs, S-LLCs, LP, Etc. It is then a matter of assessing the remaining non-exempt assets with protection needs and tax planning. Just remember, that these protection systems need to be tax neutral otherwise the asset transfer can be considered fraudulent. 

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    One of the things we have been talking about which is a HUGE advantage for CA residents is the Private Retirement Plan (PRP) codified in law under CCCP 704.115. The PRP is not partial or ‘maybe’ protection like other plans, but total protection. This is because exemptions are rights and involve no transferring of assets. The CA PRP is a State right, not a federal right and so does not depend on federal law for its protection status.

    To claim your CA PRP rights you have to:

    • 1.Qualify,
    • 2.Have a formal written and adopted PRP
    • 3.Not overfund the plan according to your current and future earnings,
    • 4.Properly maintain and administer the plan.

    The good thing also is the plan is not new. It was codified in CA in 1970 and has plenty of legislative and case law (over 47 years) to show how CA courts respect this right.

    How do you set these up? With an experienced attorney familiar with PRPs and a third party administrator. Based on the statutes, the legislative history, and the case law, the following 7 essential elements will help guide you when working with your lawyer and administrator.

    • 1.Third Party Administrator (TPA) – I use Trust-CFO as my firms third party administrator for my CA clients with PRPs.
    • 2.Qualified diagnosis by the TPA to determine if you even qualify
    • 3.Asset exemption analysis by the TPA to determine which of your assets are eligible for exemption
    • 4.Funding analysis based on income, age, and retirement needs
    • 5.Plan documentation and funding of plan – this is a critical step often overlooked or not done correctly. Your TPA and lawyer will help you with this.
    • 6.Annual administration and review- your TPA will do this review for you.
    • 7.Independent trustee

    If you get sued, these elements are what the opposing counsel will be using to argue that your plan did not meet one or more standards. So when evaluating the case law, you will find a few cases where the courts allowed creditors access to the PRP due to NOT following the requirements. 

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    @Nicholas Moran if you are concerned about asset protection and just starting out, an LLC is a good entry point. At the end of the day you want the asset our of your personal name. If you have a mortgage on the property then Consider an LLC with a land trust. If going the LLC route, I would generally say think of using two. One as an asset holding company w/ the Land Trust, and a second as the operating company. If you are a higher net worth person or have your own business etc then you might want to consider other types of asset protection. You're entire level of risk and liabilities determines the tool to use. But for just one property, LLCs are a good starting point to talk to your lawyer about. Sorry for the delay. I have not been on BP for a little. I have been busy with litigation and forming some new affiliations with great firms and been spending a lot of time talking on various Investment and Finance Podcasts.

  • Real Estate Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2016 · 922 posts · 533 votes
    7y

    @Brian Bradley

    There was mention of having an out of state entity own an LLC in state, presumably (my inference) with that out of state location being more friendly from an AP perspective. I'm wondering about how the courts treat this - ie: say there are discrepancies in local (in state operating LLC) vs that out of state holding company's treatment of the laws - is it a simple, appeal process to get a matter into that holding company's courts? Is there a method/way to ensure there wouldn't be a judgement at the more local level?

    I can see this principal applying more broadly to AP subject you are raising, but also as the STR legal landscape develops (and the end game there seems to be eventually heading towards a more unified policy and even constitutional argument in front of the Supreme Court, in my opinion) - this may apply very readily to a sound legal strategy for STR protection? Would appreciate any of your thoughts?

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    @Jim Goebel no full proof bullet proof system exists. the issue you will always have with anything with LLCs is that they are just limited. they say it the name. They act more as a deterrent. And then if they are pierced they will then have zero protection. They are good places to start. Lawsuits will always be through the State laws where you are sued. For example that states Tort Personal Injury laws. If you go the LLC option, you will just have to be comfortable with both its strengths and weaknesses. Yes it will get the property out of your personal name, act as a deterrent, and get your to the negotiating table possibly faster to settle the claim. But, they are only 'maybe' protection at the end of the day. Asset Protection Trusts are the next level up to consider, and then if you have a higher net worth, or protection is a very big deal for you and your profession and risk exposure then Offshore AP Trusts. At the end of the day, the idea is to not got to court or get to court, and settle the claims very fast. Nobody want to have to pay the costs of legal fees and appeals etc. Its always in both parties best interest to settle. If you have a strong Asset Protection Plan in place, that is what it will do for you.

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    7y

    To follow up on a prior post, Its' pretty awesome. I am very thankful to have been invited to talk. I was recently featured on Financial Gravity Episode 131 and talked with TAX MASTER and owner of publicly traded financial management company Financial Gravity - John Pollock on High End Asset Protection and tax mitigation strategies. As well as, The Business Credit & Finance Show Episode 318. We got to break down a lot about asset protection, tax mitigation, finances and proactive planning. They were very fun and informative shows. It's always great when you get to talk with other experts and see how they think and what they look at, what they are doing with clients and why. One of the shared take aways from both was that if you don't take action on what you learn, then you really are not doing anything. As you read or learn something, apply it into your life. If asset protection and preservation is important to you, then you need to be preventative and take action before you need it. It was a fun chat with both John and Ty. 

  • Member since 2019 · 4 posts · 5 votes
    6y
    I'm a newbie and I would like to know what is the best way to structure my business if I have a partner. We are looking to buy and hold in the Michigan area.
  • Investor · Passiveadvantage.com · Member since 2019 · 166 posts · 91 votes
    6y

    Hello,

    A few Questions in regards to LLC structure for a LP (limited Partner) investor in syndications:

    1. How would you recommend a Limited partner investor in real estate syndication only (but all over the country) structure a LLC to house syndication investments as a LP?

    2. What structure, ownership, state, trust vs partner?  

    3. In addition, what are the tax implication of such a structure, would it pass through a personal tax return as schedule E or does it need its own tax return?  

    4. Who should own LLC? Should ones Estate plan trust (revocable) be beneficiary of the LLC?

    Thanks

    Duke

  • Attorney · Wilsonville, OR · Member since 2017 · 504 posts · 411 votes
    6y

    @Duke Giordano I saw your IM, i will reply to that. 

  • London · Member since 2019 · 722 posts · 386 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Duke Giordano:

    Hello,

    A few Questions in regards to LLC structure for a LP (limited Partner) investor in syndications:

    1. How would you recommend a Limited partner investor in real estate syndication only (but all over the country) structure a LLC to house syndication investments as a LP?

    2. What structure, ownership, state, trust vs partner?  

    3. In addition, what are the tax implication of such a structure, would it pass through a personal tax return as schedule E or does it need its own tax return?  

    4. Who should own LLC? Should ones Estate plan trust (revocable) be beneficiary of the LLC?

    Thanks

    Duke

    Duke, this really feels like something a tax attorney should advise on when they understand your full objectives. It will be a custom solution that is tailored to your needs. 

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