Beware of Mr. Joseph England, Podcast speaker #206!!!
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Real estate investor · Pasadena, MD · Member since 2016 · 165 posts · 258 votes
6yI don't know whether there is any possibility of a counter suit since I am not an attorney but I believe that bad operators need to be called out and we should make the community aware of people/entity's that aren't what they claim to be.
Vina Real is not the only person having problems with Joseph England keeping his word so I am pretty confident that she is telling the truth.
130 Replies
- Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
@Tony Kim I'm quite familiar with what I do. I have have multiple people invest in my project's all the way down to one person. They proved me a loan with a note and I pay it back with their principle and interest; it's that simple. I loan people funds with varying forms and structures and never once has it be secured with anything. I'm not sure why this sounds foreign to so many because it's quite common.
- Rental Property Investor · Dayton, OH · Member since 2019 · 293 posts · 440 votes6y
@Mark Cruse pretty common Mark, not sure why it’s confusing so many. No need to explain yourself.
- Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
@Todd Pultz I concur but it still baffles me. Many here have been in the game so long but are acting like they have never heard of stuff. Oh well.
- Rental Property Investor · New York, NY · Member since 2011 · 956 posts · 510 votes6y
I appreciate your letting us know about this man .
perhaps you could have protected yourself better with a collateralised loan , but that is not the point .it does not excuse his corrupt behaviour and thank you for telling us.
- Investor · Youngstown, OH · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Daniel Kitt:
@Nicole Heasley Why did BP take down Mr Morris’s podcast? I was thinking of potentially working with Morris Invest one of these days? Curious to know...
Ask @James Wise
Long story short: He scammed a huge number of investors out of tons of money.
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Originally posted by @Enyi Ajoku:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
Real estate has risk. Whether someone is on the BP podcast or any other podcast doesn't vouch for their credibility. Someone can say whatever they want. There is not a team fact checking. The best con artists in the world are the smoothest talkers.
People need to do due diligence. Step one is just Google their name. Look for references on past deals. Do a credit check to see if they have open collections or payment default. Secure the money against the property.
Also keep in mind that situations can change. People lose control of their business. It is not always that they plan to commit fraud on the front end. Incompetence is often the problem and results in the effect of you losing money. I have heard of people getting sucked into drugs or gambling and destroying a successful business. In other cases people scale too fast or get involved with the wrong people. The point is, there are lots of ways for things to go wrong.
This is why for most people, they are better off keeping money in index funds. Lower return, but also much lower risk.
Based on your comments you're saying that people need to do there due diligence but Bigger Pockets does not need to do its due diligence even though people listen to your podcasts and the likes for some sort of direction based on the now "acclaimed" notion that Bigger Pocket is an "acclaimed credible" resource for real estate investing.
What I am saying is people need to do their own due diligence and don't consider the fact that someone was on any podcast as an endorsement to do business with them. I would encourage people to use the information in BP podcasts as a way to learn how to do deals not who to do deals with.
I thought this was common sense, but when some people hear someone on a podcast or see them on a YouTube video, they blindly trust them. BiggerPockets has diversity of opinions on every matter real estate related. Guests have contradicted each other. Even the hosts have reversed opinion over time. There is no one right path. This site just presents different stories from different people. You have to understand that or you will make a big mistake blindly following whatever you hear.
Even if a podcast guest went through vigorous vetting, there is no guarantee that guest will be a good business partner tomorrow, next week or next year. Things change and people change.
We all have the bias from over-influence by authority to some degree. Just look at the Milgram Shock Experiment or when co-pilots let the the plane crash because they didn't want to correct the more experienced pilot.
Big take away that people miss: Being a podcast guest doesn't mean a thing!All that being on a BP podcast means is that BP thinks their target audience will want listen to what the guest has to say so they can feed that audience some ads.
@Tony Kim @Dan Heuschele Thank you for your kind words! I have a second property in Baltimore acquired last year that's pretty good, too! I really dont want to refi this. ARV = 180k- 185k
Purchase Price 99k (from MLS short sale)
DP 20% 19800 Closing costs 7500, interest rate 5.5%
Rehab 42500
Rent 1500
PITI 707
Expenses 8% 360
PM (I self manage)10% 150
Profit 283
I'm on my second set of tenants too. The first ones broke their lease. There was a bidding war for my property this summer and tenant offered 1700 as rent. It's awesome!
I think of my unfortunate situation with the delinquent note as just a hiccup in my REI journey. I'll just brush it off, get up and continue with this journey. I don't blame BP for my mishap. In fact I'm thankful and grateful for their existence.
Originally posted by @Nicole Heasley:
Originally posted by @Daniel Kitt:
@Nicole Heasley Why did BP take down Mr Morris’s podcast? I was thinking of potentially working with Morris Invest one of these days? Curious to know...
Ask @James Wise
Long story short: He scammed a huge number of investors out of tons of money.
First off, I'm so sorry Vina Real, for your awful experience.
Regarding Morris Invest (Mi), Mark Ferguson posted a blog about Mi on his website, investfourmore-dot-com. Before BP, I had followed Mi's podcast and YouTube channel and found value in the basic talking points about REI which got me motivated in taking action. Mi's channel has since gotten a bit political and I stopped visiting the site. When I was ready, Mi was only offering passive investing so I went here to BP to learn more options. I did my due diligence to vet Mi here at BP and google. Although Mi had good content, the experience of others did not paint a good picture. Just because you are polished in your podcast and YouTube channel, this does not guarantee credibility (he had also been in a prominent program called Fox & Friends).
It does seem that losing $50k is a sweet spot for unsecured capital in which $50 - 60k was what the majority of Mi investors had also lost. REI is almost a perfect way for cashflow, acquiring wealth, etc. with all its tax advantages and equity gain but it's also a perfect way to lose it. Perhaps a PSA podcast reminder on vetting and due diligence by BP would serve the community well.
Just curious as to where "accredited vs non-accredited" investors play in these cases?
- Investor · hampton, VA · Member since 2009 · 428 posts · 249 votes6y
i want to thank @vina real for having the guts to speak up about this. It's unbelievable most of the posts are about legal issues that no doubt NONE of these kats have any idea how it really works. BUT, it's an honor to have read this.
Originally posted by @Mark Cruse:
@Tony Kim I'm quite familiar with what I do. I have have multiple people invest in my project's all the way down to one person. They proved me a loan with a note and I pay it back with their principle and interest; it's that simple. I loan people funds with varying forms and structures and never once has it be secured with anything. I'm not sure why this sounds foreign to so many because it's quite common.
It's not confusion... Just a difference of opinion. You countered my lending opinion with what looked more like an equity investment. I'm WELL AWARE of unsecured notes.... heck, I work for a company that sometimes offers mezzanine debt. It's not often, but it does happen from time to time. If unsecured debt is all you do, then hey, more power to you. I disagree 100% with your assertion that a real estate loan with no collateral is quite common. Almost all HMLs I know of require collateral....and won't go above 80 to 90% LTV. If you feel comfortable lending money without ever securing your loan, then once again....more power to you.
- Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
I believe it sounds like a differing of opinion because what I’m elaborating on doesn’t seem to be common to you. What I am talking about is basic lending and nothing else. Many experienced investors are able to embark on multiple projects due to their ability raise funds. I have people in my network who can easily raise up to one million dollars in under a week with unsecured notes. People who are capable of doing this have an established and proven reputation of integrity and ability. For me, anyone lending me funds know my track record and are emphatically confident I will deliver on what I say. I loan funds to people I’m confident will deliver on what they say. Yes, having my loans secured is cool but if I have 10 in front of me that are not secured and I’m confident I will earn, I won’t pass them up. Someone looking for the secured note may never get the opportunity they are looking for. For me, it’s intelligent to be able to canvass my network and introduce upcoming projects. With multiple investors willing to fund them I can work on many instead of one at a time. In addition, it has allowed me to do heavy lifting on major projects like condo conversions. It just depends on what you want. I only reacted to your comments because it appeared you were attempting to chastise people for not getting everything secured with assets, insinuating newbies need to educate themselves better on how to properly invest.
Originally posted by @Mark Cruse:
I believe it sounds like a differing of opinion because what I’m elaborating on doesn’t seem to be common to you. What I am talking about is basic lending and nothing else. Many experienced investors are able to embark on multiple projects due to their ability raise funds. I have people in my network who can easily raise up to one million dollars in under a week with unsecured notes. People who are capable of doing this have an established and proven reputation of integrity and ability. For me, anyone lending me funds know my track record and are emphatically confident I will deliver on what I say. I loan funds to people I’m confident will deliver on what they say. Yes, having my loans secured is cool but if I have 10 in front of me that are not secured and I’m confident I will earn, I won’t pass them up. Someone looking for the secured note may never get the opportunity they are looking for. For me, it’s intelligent to be able to canvass my network and introduce upcoming projects. With multiple investors willing to fund them I can work on many instead of one at a time. In addition, it has allowed me to do heavy lifting on major projects like condo conversions. It just depends on what you want. I only reacted to your comments because it appeared you were attempting to chastise people for not getting everything secured with assets, insinuating newbies need to educate themselves better on how to properly invest.
It's OK to have differing opinions and I have nothing but respect for you and your success. And it's great that you have such a fantastic network of lenders and folks with whom you lend capital. Like I said, more power to you!
But I'm not sure why you thought my first post was chastising anyone. The original question was,
"What is the practical and correct way to lend money for real estate investing?"
And your answer was:
I'm sorry, but anyone who is thinking about getting into lending money for real estate investing should know that the single most important thing is collateral. There are a lot of important things...but the most important thing is to protect your money...and that is most effectively done with collateral. I'm just just stating a well-established line of thought in the HML industry. That is the number 1 criteria in real estate lending. Lending without collateral is risky, as can be attested to by the person who started this thread.
And of course, that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions...as can be attested to by you and your success. But please don't take my answer as chastising anyone. You provided your opinion and I provided my opinion. Not sure why my answer above would be considered chastising anyone as I have a right to my opinion that collateral is important. Obviously, your criteria is different. Nothing wrong with having different ways to success right?
- Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2020 · 25 posts · 9 votes6y
@Nicole Heasley why they take it dowm ?
- Investor · Youngstown, OH · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Jorge Lopez:
@Nicole Heasley why they take it dowm ?
He scammed a bunch of investors:
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/760268-james-wise-clayton-morris-trailer-video - Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Nicole Heasley Beitenman:
Originally posted by @Daniel Kitt:
@Nicole Heasley Why did BP take down Mr Morris’s podcast? I was thinking of potentially working with Morris Invest one of these days? Curious to know...
Ask @James Wise
Long story short: He scammed a huge number of investors out of tons of money.
Here is everything you need to know on Clayton Morris
https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/311/topics/767109-clayton-morris-is-suing-james-wise - Developer · . · Member since 2014 · 520 posts · 162 votes6y
Originally posted by @Andrew S.:
Originally posted by @Vina Real:
@Jay Hinrichs And that's what I did, I gave him an unsecured loan/promissory note from my SDIRA. And that's what other loans from my account consist of.
Just as an aside, please be aware that your SIDRA custodian will want to see some sort of admission of default or other documentation to the effect that you won't get paid back. If not, they will report the amount of loan as a pay-out to the IRS who will want to collect taxes and penalties on the amount. Double-whammy! Ask me how I know....
Good point Andrew. I know someone who lends out of there SIDRA to a developer who does bigger projects (ex: condo conversion). They are lending out 100K at 7% with a promissory note. I will point of the risk to them.
Veda, sorry this happened to you.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Eric Bilderback:
I am a fan boy of yours and have given and recommended your book many times.
Coming out and saying it bothers you makes me feel better. That being said I think for someone who lost out because of questionable ethics (trying to do their first "BRRR") it would be nice for BP to acknowledge that this platform lent credibility and helped make a new investor feel safe loaning or investing with a sketchy investor. To me it comes across as a CYA move. I think you would agree that BP is suspicious of gurus and holds itself out to help folks starting out to not be taken advantage of. Ironically BP's excellent reputation can be used to do just that.
One little rant I have is this,
It upsets me when I read people telling a new investor that was taken advantage of that they were naive. I always want to yell and say, "No Kidding Jerk! Not everyone can be as streetwise you tough guy.” If you have not been around lowlifes and people that are desperate you probably can be taken advantage of by them. So what? Now the new investor knows so lets give them some support and help them dust off so they can get back to it.
The reality is most people shouldn't get into real estate. It is too risky and they don't have the common sense to property vet people or investments. Tell that to a newbie and they would tell me I am not welcoming or encouraging. So which is it? Should we be honest before or after they invest?
Most people who lose money in real estate deals were not scammed. They were just involved in a bad deal or with a partner who made bad decisions. I have lost money in real estate and I didn't blame the other person. I took responsibility and learned from my mistake. Taking responsibility doesn't mean you don't hold the other person accountable. There are legal means to go after people to recover money. Doing this accomplishes three things:
1. It sends the message that you do not tolerate being taken advantage of.
2. You may recover some or all your money.
3. It damages the reputation of the bad actor, which means if another investor does due diligence, they will know not to work with this person. But that is a big if. As this thread has revealed, most people don't even put someones name in Google ans click search prior to investing with them.
- Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
That does come across a little harsh. I disagree at least with tone (my interpretation). Most new people don’t know what they are doing and its easy to make a mistake, true. But I don’t think real estate in very complicated compared to most businesses. So a person with no experience can come up with a safe plan to create passive income in the mid to longterm with great degree of certainty. Just by a decent house in a solid place rent it out (run numbers yada yada yada) and the longer you own it the smarter you look.
I absolutely think everyone should take responsibility especially the investor but that makes me want to push back and say including BP. We have a responsibility to each other not only to guide us all through learning the business but to have some sympathy for each other. When someone loses money especially when they are just starting out that can be devastating. If I played a roll in someone making a bad decision I would want to reevaluate, I don’t think that is unfair of me to expect the same of others. BP is great as I stated earlier and they have done much more good for investors then any other organization that I am aware of, so don’t take this as me throwing you guys under the bus. Just calling it like I see it.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Eric Bilderback:
That does come across a little harsh. I disagree at least with tone (my interpretation). Most new people don’t know what they are doing and its easy to make a mistake, true. But I don’t think real estate in very complicated compared to most businesses. So a person with no experience can come up with a safe plan to create passive income in the mid to longterm with great degree of certainty. Just by a decent house in a solid place rent it out (run numbers yada yada yada) and the longer you own it the smarter you look.
I absolutely think everyone should take responsibility especially the investor but that makes me want to push back and say including BP. We have a responsibility to each other not only to guide us all through learning the business but to have some sympathy for each other. When someone loses money especially when they are just starting out that can be devastating. If I played a roll in someone making a bad decision I would want to reevaluate, I don’t think that is unfair of me to expect the same of others. BP is great as I stated earlier and they have done much more good for investors then any other organization that I am aware of, so don’t take this as me throwing you guys under the bus. Just calling it like I see it.
I don't see how BP played a role in this? In podcast 206 we learned that he has done 22 deals in 10 months. He had less than one year experience in real estate! He was running his business while deployed in the military overseas - so not even local or hands on. His last post on the BP forums was two years ago. You can read all of his posts at the link below. He talks about having trouble getting funding from banks. He was trying to pull cash out of deals and buy a partner out. Why was his partner bailing? Why were the banks not lending - because of the risk! That is why he turned to private lenders and offered double digit returns. If you are high risk, you pay better returns.
I have cautioned hundreds if not thousands of people on the risks of real estate. I offer constructive advice on how to protect yourself. I am sure I have helped people, but I also know some people say "no thanks I know better". Some people need to learn from their own mistakes. I will continued to try to help people and that may occasionally mean giving advice people don't want to hear. Sometimes the truth is harsh.
- Real Estate Agent · Sisters, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
I must not be communicating clearly. My original point was the podcast gave someone credibility they took that and convinced someone to give them an unsecured loan. I felt for this investor and I was pointing out that this would be frustrating to then find out BP’s position is no comment.
I think most people on here would agree with me that the overall BP message is to take action not that you should probably not do anything. But again I love BP and that message is one I agree with 100%. Financial freedom or at least being less stressed about your finances is possible with real estate.
@Joe Splitrock Wow! That is harsh comment. Thank you for crushing me. I'm sorry I'm not that smart like you. I made a mistake and I am paying for it. The reason I came out with this post is to simply WARN OTHERS especially beginners like me not to commit the mistakes that I did. I know I look like a fool but I posted it anyway. As an operating room nurse, 2 most important traits for me are honesty and trustworthiness. I'm sure my borrowers in my other notes have those traits coz they've been with me for years and they never missed payments. I thought this is a helpful community. I'm mistaken. Peace out. I'm not gonna participate in this thread anymore.
- 6yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Vina Real:
@Joe Splitrock Wow! That is harsh comment. Thank you for crushing me. I'm sorry I'm not that smart like you. I made a mistake and I am paying for it. The reason I came out with this post is to simply WARN OTHERS especially beginners like me not to commit the mistakes that I did. I know I look like a fool but I posted it anyway. As an operating room nurse, 2 most important traits for me are honesty and trustworthiness. I'm sure my borrowers in my other notes have those traits coz they've been with me for years and they never missed payments. I thought this is a helpful community. I'm mistaken. Peace out. I'm not gonna participate in this thread anymore.
Your OK Vina.. lesson learned.. pert near anyone who has been in real estate over any amount of time has lost money on a deal if your actually doing deals.. And Joe is just pointing that out take no personal offense..
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