LIBOR RATES MANIPULATED!

LIBOR RATES MANIPULATED!

Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes

Well, they got caught, Barclay, the Bank of England manipulating the interest rate of the London Inner Bank Offer Rate (LIBOR). This is the rate charged for borrowing between banks internationally.

If you have an adjustable rate mortgage there is a good chance that the LIBOR is the index from which your interest rate is set.

Another example of the lack of regulatory oversight by banking regulators.

It's also an example of the cultural attitudes favoring profits over social responsiblity, over the integrity of our financial systems and what illegal activities seem to be an acceptable risk for profit.

For those who would like to see government(s) get out of business and stop regulating or enforcing rules, here is a good example why people and corporations can not be trusted to regulate themselves.....people cheat if they can!

And yes, there is a connection between the people responsible for this rate manipulation and that certain person seeking the Presidency, that said, this is not to point out any political issue, please let's not go there, the subject is the ramifications of the rate manipulation and rates going up for credit cards as well as mortgages or other consumer credit matters.

So, how do you hedge against a rigged system? Do you think any heads will role? Will you be calling your lender about rate adjustments?

1Reply
14 views

Most Popular Reply

J ScottPro Member
Moderator
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
14y
Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
Bill Gulley - it would be nice if you gave us the website address where you discovered this, so that we can read it.

Here are some articles from U.S. based media outlets the past week or two (and if you look at any overseas media outlets, this has been the top story):

http://www.economist.com/node/21558281

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/05/explainer-why-the-libor-scandal-is-a-bigger-deal-than-jpmorgan/

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0703/Lies-damned-lies-and-LIBOR-Barclays-Diamond-and-a-devalued-benchmark

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/libor-banking-scandal-deepens-barclays-releases-damning-email-implicates-british-government-20120704?utm_source=dailynewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/another-domino-falls-in-the-libor-banking-scam-royal-bank-of-scotland-20120629?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/07/03/156222428/episode-384-the-little-lie-that-rocked-the-banks

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-15/libor-investigation-said-to-expose-collusion-lack-of-internal-controls.html

http://www.thenation.com/article/168751/libor-crime-century#

See this reply in the discussion

21 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y

    Bill Gulley - it would be nice if you gave us the website address where you discovered this, so that we can read it.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    14y

    Bill Gulley -

    I can't believe this story hasn't gotten more press (at least in the U.S. -- it's a pretty big stories overseas, I hear)...as far as I'm concerned, this is probably the biggest banking scandal since 2008, and maybe ever. The fact that these banks have been colluding to affect the LIBOR -- which influences pretty much any interest rate in the world, directly or indirectly -- is basically saying that much of the world's population has been directly affected by this collusion.

    The Economist has estimated that $800 Trillion in loan payments around the world are affected by the LIBOR, as well as pretty much every savings rate.

    I'm not saying that governments could have done a better job, but like you said, big business can't be trusted to do the right thing without checks and balances in place to hold them accountable.

    Will heads role? If past banking scandals are any indication, there will be a scapegoat or two (a couple Barclays execs have resigned so far). And I wouldn't be surprised if at-least subtle accusations rear themselves during the election cycle with regards to a particular candidate (I have a feeling we won't be hearing much, "You are who you keep company with" out of Conservative pundits this election cycle), but I don't see any major ramifications, as the general public likely won't understand how they've been affected or why it's important that stuff like this needs to stop.

    In my opinion, here's the real kicker of this scandal (so far):

    RBS (Royal Bank of Scotland) is getting fined $233M for their role in the scandal. But, the bank says that it has no authority to influence the financial bonuses of the traders who were involved in the scandal. So, the traders involved will get their big bonuses and then the $233M fine will be paid by the owners of the bank. Who are the owners? Well, 82% ownership is public, so that means while those responsible are getting their bonuses, the government (i.e., the TAXPAYERS) will be paying the fine.

    Sheesh...

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    Bill Gulley - it would be nice if you gave us the website address where you discovered this, so that we can read it.

    Here are some articles from U.S. based media outlets the past week or two (and if you look at any overseas media outlets, this has been the top story):

    http://www.economist.com/node/21558281

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/05/explainer-why-the-libor-scandal-is-a-bigger-deal-than-jpmorgan/

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2012/0703/Lies-damned-lies-and-LIBOR-Barclays-Diamond-and-a-devalued-benchmark

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/libor-banking-scandal-deepens-barclays-releases-damning-email-implicates-british-government-20120704?utm_source=dailynewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/another-domino-falls-in-the-libor-banking-scam-royal-bank-of-scotland-20120629?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/07/03/156222428/episode-384-the-little-lie-that-rocked-the-banks

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-15/libor-investigation-said-to-expose-collusion-lack-of-internal-controls.html

    http://www.thenation.com/article/168751/libor-crime-century#

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y

    J Scott, thanks for the great posts. I only got tid bits of the issue on the news, so I had no other info.

    I did hear commentary by a regulator in England saying that the attitude in banking is threatning the confidence in the financial systems world wide and that things must change.

  • Rental Property Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    Bill Gulley thanks for the heads up. I need to watch this one. Personally I benefited from the low rate over the last few years. My mortgage was nearly cut in half when it adjusted down after lock period. I need to follow this one.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    Bill Gulley - it would be nice if you gave us the website address where you discovered this, so that we can read it.

    What? You don't listen to NPR? JK. That's where I head about the story several days ago.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Brian Hoyt:
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    Bill Gulley - it would be nice if you gave us the website address where you discovered this, so that we can read it.

    What? You don't listen to NPR? JK. That's where I head about the story several days ago.


    Sorry, just not my "cup of tea" ...
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y

    [b]

    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    Originally posted by Brian Hoyt:
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    Bill Gulley - it would be nice if you gave us the website address where you discovered this, so that we can read it.

    What? You don't listen to NPR? JK. That's where I head about the story several days ago.


    Sorry, just not my "cup of tea" ...

    LOL, yes, but I doubt it will be mentioned at all on FOX "News" between Budwiser commercials.....LOL

    Cup of tea....LOL! Get a cold one Steve and I'll join ya........sorry, I should have mentioned I heard it on the news today.....

    I have not read all the links Jason provided yet, but this is going to be a very big deal, probably be talking about it next year!

  • Brian LevredgePro Member
    Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 903 votes
    14y

    Until we start letting financial institutions fail for bad behavior you can expect more of the same. Propping up bad business models or bad behavior only serves to encourage more of the same.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Brian Levredge:
    Until we start letting financial institutions fail for bad behavior you can expect more of the same. Propping up bad business models or bad behavior only serves to encourage more of the same.

    Nobody was propping up these banks, and the banks were at no risk of failing because they were manipulating the rules in their own favor.

    This was an issue of businesses getting so powerful that they were able to break the rules with impunity, and without checks and balances to avoid the "bad behavior."

  • Brian LevredgePro Member
    Investor · Chattanooga, TN · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 903 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by J Scott:
    Originally posted by Brian Levredge:
    Until we start letting financial institutions fail for bad behavior you can expect more of the same. Propping up bad business models or bad behavior only serves to encourage more of the same.

    Nobody was propping up these banks, and the banks were at no risk of failing because they were manipulating the rules in their own favor.

    This was an issue of businesses getting so powerful that they were able to break the rules with impunity, and without checks and balances to avoid the "bad behavior."

    To a degree. But RBS was already bailed out as you indicated in your earlier post, and yet here they are caught in the middle of another mess (again). Since the regulator (BoE) is pretty much a wholly owned subsidiary of the banks it is supposed to be regulating, I can't say I find this too surprising.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Brian Levredge:
    Since the regulator (BoE) is pretty much a wholly owned subsidiary of the banks it is supposed to be regulating, I can't say I find this too surprising.

    It will definitely be interesting to see how far up the chain this mess goes. They're trying to play it off as limited to some corrupt traders within the banks, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that it went all the way to the top of the banks and perhaps even to the regulators.

    I'm a big believer that when more than two people know something, it's pretty tough to keep it a secret for very long -- if this is something that has been going on for a long time, it would be hard to believe that the regulators didn't have some inkling.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y

    It's what you get when the fox guards the hen house.

    The LIBOR had a very good reputation as an index, it was less volitile as other indexes and was a good option, now I can see borrowers shying away in favor of the Fed Funds index and even the higher prime rate published in the WSJ. Most banks have products with such options and are also available in the secondary markets.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Al Williamson:
    Bill Gulley thanks for the heads up. I need to watch this one. Personally I benefited from the low rate over the last few years. My mortgage was nearly cut in half when it adjusted down after lock period. I need to follow this one.

    I have a HELOC that was indexed to LIBOR. As I read the one article, it seems that the banks manipulated the LIBOR rate downward, so that as Al Williamson has mentioned, my rate for the loan was lower and so I benefited. So my guess is that all borrowers (the little guys in particular) would have likewise benefited from this. Anybody disagree with that assessment?

    Anybody in these forums who will come out and say how they may have been harmed by this market manipulation? (Not that I think the manipulation was good, I'm just curious to learn how it impacted those who were harmed with some real examples.)

  • Don KonipolBusiness Member
    Investor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    14y

    I have a completely different take. The problem with banking institutions is that they are financed, regulated, and bailed out by governments. The solution is PRIVATE banks, not more government.

    Bill Gulley is a very smart, astute, and knowledgeable individual, but his background is that he was a bank examiner (field regulator), so it is only natural that he sees the problem as one of not enough government regulation. To every hammer the solution is always a nail!

    Private Mortgage Financing Partners, LLC
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y

    Well thank you Don but really, I'm not for "more" regulation, I'd like to see many taken off the books, I'm for better regulation and more teeth to hold corporate types personally responsible for their actions, not just mistakes or errors, but obvious violations of law as well as standard practices, such as this rate manipulation matter.

    I also think that private banks, say under 100 million shouldn't be held to the same standards required of the billion dollar round table.

    And, smaller financial instutions say under 25 million would have even greater freedoms, but it certainly would not be anything goes as Mr. Potter would have it.

    Without law or regulation you would have nothing but choas. People do take advantage of others, it's humane nature and part of our capitalist system and to some degree very acceptable, it's the way the world works. But at some point it can become preditory, that the greed or winning is more about destroying others for profits than good business.

    I know bankers lie, cheat and steal, but not all bankers. Regulations are like a lock on a door, they simply keep honest people more honest when there is an oppotunity, they don't prevent bad people from being bad.

    I'd like to see personal responsiblity for those in a psoition of trust.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:

    Anybody in these forums who will come out and say how they may have been harmed by this market manipulation?

    I don't think we know the extent of the manipulation yet, so it's hard to say who -- if anyone -- was harmed. But, it's safe to say that in any lending transaction, there are two parties...if one party is helped in some way, it's reasonable to assume the other party was hurt.

    In this case, if borrowers were helped, the lenders were hurt, and there are a lot of people here on this board who lend money.

    Personally, I think the bigger issue here is that who knows how far the manipulation went (or would have gone)...and who knows what other manipulation is currently ongoing that may be hurting us in some way.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    14y

    The "harm" to people could be indirect and hard to quantify. Much like the fed manipulating interest rates. Some win and some loose. Of the people on the periphery of the effects, some could have benefited and some could have been harmed.

    For example, this might have suppressed interes rates and benefited mortgage borrowers. On the other hand, lower interest rates could account for some of the difficulty in obtaining loans in the first place.

    Just thinking out loud as I don't really understand with much depth the more sophisticated and higher level operations of finance and economy.

    Somethimes I think it ultimately just boils down to a handful of powerful people with lots of wealth making decisions based on their "free market" and not really based on the "free market" as participated in by most of us laymen investors. And I don't mean that in any sort of conspiratorial sense either. Although I'm sure sinister things happen as well.

  • Homeowner · Burleson, TX · Member since 2008 · 756 posts · 376 votes
    14y
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y

    Greg, great article, and makes my point of regulations, you simply can not trust people to do the right thing, you have to force them or make such behavior so punishable that they never even consider doing bad things.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Steve Babiak:
    As I read the one article, it seems that the banks manipulated the LIBOR rate downward, so that as Al Williamson has mentioned, my rate for the loan was lower and so I benefited. So my guess is that all borrowers (the little guys in particular) would have likewise benefited from this. Anybody disagree with that assessment?

    Here's a great infographic on how the scandal hurts every private citizen:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/infographic-the-libor-scandal-explained-2012-7

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.