Hello BP, I haven't posted in quite some time! I thought it would be interesting if we all shared what our rehabbing/remodeling process looks like. I am currently on my fourth investment property, my strategy is buy and hold. My rehabbing process is usually to go in and a large amount of the work myself. My last rehab took me almost a year because of this. On my new project I am looking for a good balance of keeping costs down while at the same time not killing myself by trying to do Everything. I have gotten quotes from general contractors, which would make it pretty much a hands off rehab for me, and I really like the idea of it being hands off. The problem is that the general contractors want way more money than I can justify. When I can get the house done for about 5k in materials and they want 20k to do the job I just can't bring myself to pay it.
I would love to hear what your remodeling process looks like, maybe I can get some ideas to find a happy medium!
As a learning process, I still got multiple bids for nearly every major task I did myself, and realized that In my area the cost of construction materials is about 15-25% of the cost of project, the rest being labor. Finishes are more subjective and personal, and costs vary a lot more.
As a contractor this statement just pisses me off. Unless you paid for these quotes, you were just stealing from the people that you called to come give them to you. These people all have better things to do then drive to your property and work for free. If you have no intention of hiring a contractor, don't call one just because you're curious about what something would have cost you if you didn't do it yourself. You are stealing time and money from them. Yes, money. It costs a lot to keep gas in the trucks we have to drive. It takes 3 to 4 hours of time for every quote. The drive to the house, talking to the client, looking up current prices, and writing up the proposal all takes time. Time that that contractor could have been getting paid for by an honest client. Time that could have been spent with their family. (Yes, we have families too.)
Any good contractor is working on a job most days (if they're not, you have to ask yourself why). That means that we have to do quotes at night, when we should be spending time with our kids. Or we're pissing off our current client by taking time away from our work to go meet you and see your property.
You wouldn't expect your lawyer to consult for free. You wouldn't expect your accountant to work for free. You wouldn't expect your real estate agent to work for free. YOU wouldn't work for free. Why do you expect contractors to work for free?
... these things are overhead expenses that every service business must deal with. For most service professionals, giving bids/quotes/proposals is also part of the overhead. I couldn't imagine ever paying money for a quote; my attorney doesn't charge me to put together a firm proposal for legal work, my CPA doesn't charge me to put together a firm proposal for accounting work, my mechanic doesn't charge me to put together a firm proposal to fix my car, etc.
I certainly don't think contractors are special and can justify charging for a bid when no few other service professionals do.
That's the problem J., I NEED to keep overhead costs low. We all know that overhead gets passed down to the end consumer, and the big problem I face J., is that I'm competing with Craigslist Hacks that have no continuing education, that have no licenses, that have no insurance, that don't have a trailer full of tools, and are working for $15 per hour. (In my area, contractors average about $65 per man-hour, I charge $40.) I'm competing against the guys Aaron Mazzrillo mentioned above "Most people think they just disappear or go back to prison. I think they all eventually just kind of keel over dead in front of the TV gripping their Budweiser can, never to be heard from again." The truth is that these guys probably realize that they lost money on the job and refuse to continue to work that cheap. No one can work for free.
You're comparing apples to oranges here. It doesn't cost your CPA, your lawyer, or your mechanic anything to answer the phone and say "That's a 4 hour job, that's going to cost you $1200.00. Where it's actually a 4 hour job for the contractor to come up with the proposal for the job. You wouldn't expect your CPA to work 4 hours on your tax returns, just to say "Okay, it's going to cost you $1500 for me to do these returns if you want me to finish them." That's why I charge nothing for an estimate. From past experience, I know roughly what a project will cost. I simply tell the customer, that's going to be in the $1500 range. It's going to take a day, materials will be about $800 and two guys for the day is $640. That's the same as your CPA, attorney, or mechanic telling you what it's going to cost to have the job done. If they want me to work for 4 hours, they will then pay for that work.
Start treating your contractors like you treat your other professionals, your CPAs and your attorneys, and you'll get better contractors. Don't expect something for nothing from us if you wouldn't expect it from your lawyer.
In fact, it might have been you who wrote in another post "It's worth the money to pay a consulting fee to an attorney to sit with you for a couple of hours to make sure your doing it right." or something along those lines. By your reasoning, the attorney shouldn't charge you for that consultation because you might hire him in the future. Is it because we're "just contractors" that it's not worth it to you?
Ah, competition. I don't hire contractors, Mostly I hire handy-men. If I had to pay $40 - $65 per hour for labor on a rehab, then I wouldn't be able to compete against the guys who "do their own work". Even so, I often get out-bid on properties by $5000 or so. I think it may be these guys who do their own work. It may take them 6 - 9 months working evenings and weekends. But they can only do 1 rehab at a time. So, when the next good deal hits the MLS, they are no longer bidding on it and I can get it at a good price.
I've actually heard people say things like "wow, if I could make just $5000 on a deal, I would take it in a heart-beat". These are usually the same guys who are planning to do all the work themselves. So basically, they are really not buying a rehab deal, they are really just buying a part-time job. They will make $5000 (if they're lucky) which will maybe pay themselves the equivalent of $15 per hour. Personally, I can't compete with that.
I have several guys that work for me in the $11 - $15 per hour range. And they do good work. And they're solid people, good citizens, good neighbors, and friends. I really couldn't make it without them.
Start treating your contractors like you treat your other professionals, your CPAs and your attorneys, and you'll get better contractors. Don't expect something for nothing from us if you wouldn't expect it from your lawyer.
In fact, it might have been you who wrote in another post "It's worth the money to pay a consulting fee to an attorney to sit with you for a couple of hours to make sure your doing it right." or something along those lines. By your reasoning, the attorney shouldn't charge you for that consultation because you might hire him in the future. Is it because we're "just contractors" that it's not worth it to you?
You're comparing my attorney providing consultation with you providing a bid? I think you're confused on where you actually provide value to your customers...hint, it's not writing bids...
When I pay my attorney money for consultation, I'm paying him for providing a particular service that has value to me (his expert legal opinion).
Likewise, when I hire a contractor, the value they are providing me isn't the bid. The value they are providing me is the renovation work they're doing. That's what I pay for -- the thing that actually provides me value.
Now, when I bring in a contractor for a consultation -- for example, when my HVAC guy comes out, tests my furnace and tells me what I need or don't need to fix it or when my foundation guy comes out, takes measurements and tells me what I need to do to make my foundation structurally sound -- I pay them for the time they spend giving me their expert opinions. Just like I pay my attorney for his expert opinion.
But, after the consultation is done, my HVAC and foundation guys go off to investigate the cost of their doing the job and come back with a bid for the work -- I'm not paying them for the time they spend putting together the bid, as that isn't providing any value to me.
By your reasoning, I should be paying my attorney for the time/cost of his going to law school, as that's overhead he's incurring in order to be able to get my work...
Btw, here are two recent counter-examples for you:
1. I asked my CPA if he'd be able to help prepare a prospectus for a private placement. He'd never done it before, and said that he'd investigate and come back with what he could do and how much it would cost. A few days later, he came back with a proposal on how he could help and how much it would cost. I imagine he spent at least as much time on that proposal as you spend on a bid, but he didn't charge me for it, as that proposal wasn't providing me any value -- it was the overhead he incurs to get my business.
2. I asked a new land surveyor (one I had never used before) to put together a bid to do all the surveys, site plans, erosion control plans, etc., in order to complete a new construction project. This was in a county where he'd never dealt with these things before. He spent a few days figuring out what the county required on their site plans, what erosion control measures they required, what level of grading certification they required, etc., so that he could determine how much work it would be for him and how much he should charge me. He then give me a bid for the work. In the process, he also gave me all the information I needed about what the county required in terms of site plan documentation -- this was valuable to me and I would have happily paid for it (I pay for value); yet he didn't accept any payment. Even though he knew that he had provided me information that I could use to find a competitor. He knew it was just part of the business. I hired him, and probably overpaid...but the fact that he was willing to provide me value and not accept payment told me that he was someone I wanted to work with.
So, in answer to your last question, it has nothing to do with being "just contractors." I have the exact same standards for all service people I work with -- I pay for the value they provide. Work they do to gain my business but that doesn't provide me value is called "overhead," and I don't pay for that. All the service professionals I work with agree that's the way it should be and would never think to charge me for their business' overhead.
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Now, when I bring in a contractor for a consultation -- for example, when my HVAC guy comes out, tests my furnace and tells me what I need or don't need to fix it or when my foundation guy comes out, takes measurements and tells me what I need to do to make my foundation structurally sound -- I pay them for the time they spend giving me their expert opinions. Just like I pay my attorney for his expert opinion.
But, after the consultation is done, my HVAC and foundation guys go off to investigate the cost of their doing the job and come back with a bid for the work -- I'm not paying them for the time they spend putting together the bid, as that isn't providing any value to me.
By your reasoning, I should be paying my attorney for the time/cost of his going to law school, as that's overhead he's incurring in order to be able to get my work...
Btw, here are two recent counter-examples for you:
1. I asked my CPA if he'd be able to help prepare a prospectus for a private placement. He'd never done it before, and said that he'd investigate and come back with what he could do and how much it would cost. A few days later, he came back with a proposal on how he could help and how much it would cost. I imagine he spent at least as much time on that proposal as you spend on a bid, but he didn't charge me for it, as that proposal wasn't providing me any value -- it was the overhead he incurs to get my business.
I should give an "estimate" over the phone, free, then have a "consultation" for $100 where I go to the job site and take measurements, then go home and make a detailed design and materials list and submit a "bid" free.
That's exactly what I do, I just call it a proposal instead of a "consultation" and "bid".
When I do a proposal, it involves me going to the house, taking measurements, and telling the client exactly what's needed to do the job. That's what I'm getting paid for. Same as your HVAC guy coming and testing the furnace or the foundation guy coming and measuring the foundation. I should get paid for my time just like they should get paid for theirs. It sounds like we're both arguing the same side of this debate, just with different wording. I should call my proposals "consultations" and you'd be okay with it?
And you do pay for your attorney going to law school, that's why they get $300-$500 per hour, to pay off the student loans! Same as doctors.
Your CPA is already your CPA, you're already paying him to do those things. He has made enough profit from you that to give a couple hours isn't a problem. I wouldn't charge an existing client either!
All consumers pay the overhead of businesses. Even if it's at Wal-Mart, the overhead is in the cost of EVERY item they sell. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be in business. I'm simply trying to keep the overhead to a minimum so I can keep my rates lower then anyone else around. If I had to absorb the "consultation fee" then the labor rate would have to go up to compensate for it, then the clients that I work for would basically be paying for the time wasted every time someone just wanted to know how much money their saving by doing the job themselves.
The cost of doing business is paid for by the end consumer, every time. Do you think that delivery companies kept their rates the same for the last 10 years? Hell no! They went up to reflect the gas prices. This in turn has raised the cost of the goods those trucks are delivering. That's why groceries have gone up, that's why the cost of everything has gone up. If the delivery companies had to absorb that gas hike, that "cost of doing business", they would have gone out of business. So they raised their rates. If the grocery store had to absorb that higher cost of deliveries, they would have gone out of business. So they raised the cost of the groceries. It's basic economics.
just keep in mind that you could be sitting in the office creating a new marketing piece, scrubbing a list, putting together a mailer, making offers on MLS properties, or following up on old/stale leads.
OR, you could pay somebody to do those mundane desk job tasks and do what you enjoy doing rather than sitting on your butt getting fat...
I should give an "estimate" over the phone, free, then have a "consultation" for $100 where I go to the job site and take measurements, then go home and make a detailed design and materials list and submit a "bid" free.
That's exactly what I do, I just call it a proposal instead of a "consultation" and "bid".
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Same as your HVAC guy coming and testing the furnace or the foundation guy coming and measuring the foundation. I should get paid for my time just like they should get paid for theirs. It sounds like we're both arguing the same side of this debate, just with different wording. I should call my proposals "consultations" and you'd be okay with it?
Nope, not at all the same. I'm not talking about taking measurements to determine sizes of rooms and how much material you'll need. That's part of your bid. When I said my foundation guy takes measurements, I'm talking about bringing in specialized equipment to measure wall deflection, calculating loads based on the design of the house, and then using his engineering degree to determine the right course of action to fix the foundation issue. Again, that is providing me a valuable service...measuring a room to determine how much carpet you need doesn't provide me any value.
Likewise, when I ask my HVAC to come in and give me a bid to replace my HVAC system with another specific system, I don't expect to pay for the bid. I pay for the bid when he provides me a valuable service -- such as performing tests on my existing system, diagnosing issues or providing expert opinion on questions I have.
Of course, if your customers ask you to come and tell them what needs to be done and what doesn't need to be done, it's reasonable to charge them for your expert opinion. But, most successful investors I know don't ask contractors to come in and tell them what renovation work to do -- they know what needs to be done and they provide a Scope of Work that tells the contractor what specifically to do. My examples above are the exception to the rule.
If you're dealing with inexperienced investors who don't know what they need done and are looking to you to help them define the scope of their renovation, then you're playing a different role than contractor -- you've now become their designer and their investing consultant. Of course you can charge for that.
But, to charge for time time it takes you to measure rooms and figure out how much you need to charge is quite different...and not what most service providers do.
And you do pay for your attorney going to law school, that's why they get $300-$500 per hour, to pay off the student loans! Same as doctors.
Your CPA is already your CPA, you're already paying him to do those things. He has made enough profit from you that to give a couple hours isn't a problem. I wouldn't charge an existing client either!
To add to my response above this one...
First, again, I don't think you're quite getting the point. I don't pay for my attorney to go to law school and his rate has nothing to do with how much he owes in student loans. If you had $500K in student loans, I wouldn't pay you more than I pay other contractors. Just like if my attorney had no student loan debt, I wouldn't pay him less.
My attorney gets paid more than my contractors because he has a skill that is less common than my contractor's have. It's called supply and demand. If there was only one person who could paint my house, I'd likely pay him more than I pay my attorney.
As for your point about my CPA, that's actually not true. The first time I met my CPA, I spent an hour asking him questions and asking him what he'd do to lower my tax burden. He spent an hour answering my questions and giving me recommendations on how to save money. He didn't charge me and I could have taken his recommendations to another CPA. But, my CPA is a professional, and he recognizes that earning clients requires work on his part, as well as some risk. He's made a lot of money off me since, but I wouldn't have been charged for that first hour regardless.
Again, this is your business, and you can run it any way you choose. In fact, if charging for bids is currently generating success in your business, you'd be crazy to even consider anything I'm saying. It's quite possible your target customer is completely different from me, and I don't "get it." I'm not a contractor, I've never run a contracting business and I'm not a typical consumer of contracting services (in general, investors are not the typical contractor clients).
So, it's very possible I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just giving my experience and opinion...
I was a hard bid general contractor before school; here are my two cents:
1) I was never paid for bidding projects for which I did not get a contract, although there are certain contracts where a GC can negotiate payment for these services.
2) The cost of estimating is an overhead expense, that is somewhat reflected in the desired profit on a project. There are two ways in which a construction company pays for overhead: 1) profit from projects and 2) management/labor on projects. As such, a GC can only bid a project so low in order to cover overhead. Therefore, overhead is reflected in a final bid either through profit or management/labor expense and the public does indeed pay for these costs. This rationale applies whether it be a new office building or a single family home.
3) All service industries including the legal field are subject to commoditization (see legalzoom and read The World is Flat), better find your niche!
4) Investors that hire solely on price will eventually suffer the consequences. Unlicensed contractors generally have no idea what overhead is, let alone what their company's overhead expense is. Many of these guys finish project 1 with project 2's payments and so on. So when they run out on a project its likely because there was no project 3, to pay for yours.
5) @jscott: you may not be paying for your lawyer's student loans, but you are paying a/many lawyer's student loans! The only way that would not be the case is if the market would not bear it, and despite the loss of legal positions in the past five years, I would argue that the market is continuing to bear such costs.
Agreed with everything you said above. Including your point about attorneys and their fees. Of course, if attorneys were still incurring large student loan debt and there was downward pressure on fees, the most likely repercussion would be a drop in the number of qualified attorneys, and the reduced supply would prop up the fees.
I sometimes have to fight the urge to do my own work. But if the dry wall guys is $12/hour, he's also better than me, and about 50% faster, so I'm really working for $8/hour. That usually reels me back in, even though I do enjoy doing Some work.
Although I primarily flip houses, for many years I was(and still am) a Real Estate Broker. I spent countless hours creating CMAs and Marketing Programs for prospective clients just to make a positive impression when I was able to obtain a face to face presentation. All I ever wanted was the opportunity to sell myself to a client ! I cannot imagine a contractor not being the same way. The opportunity for face to face marketing is priceless !!
I did my first rehab in the 70's for someone else, who by the way became rich and famous a few years later when he started selling his info business at seminars and info commercials. Carleton Sheets. He was at the time I met him already wealthy and I needed a mentor. When he bought a property that needed a rehab, he would provide me with details and free rent for the duration of the rehab. I always started from the top down. Roof if needed, ceiling if needed walls always even if it was just paint. Then the floors. After the inside of the house was completed, the outside painted and the landscaping cleaned up and given curb appeal. I have done about 300 rehabs since then. Some by myself, and most with contractors. What has been said about time and it's use by others is relevant only if you make it so. I don't make all my money by doing rehab work, I make my money through passive income from the properties I hold and the ones I sell. I do however feel that if you are wanting to do this for a living, you have to farm out all of the work in other areas. Including the management of the properties after they are rent ready. I am not rich and famous, but I am rich viers. I devote myself to my family and that means my brothers and sisters, and my in laws as well. Those of you who have no one else to worry about need to find someone. It blesses you and keeps you founded on solid ground.
I also want to respond to J Scott, with a bravo for understanding relationships in professional life. Your CPA is your most valuable asset. Then your attorney and then all the other connections you have in business. The attorney for one main reason is in the second position. If you have an attorney that you have a relationship with in business, he can protect all of your other assets and give you the power to fight back within the law when someone else tries to use the law against you. A retainer of 1000 a year can save you a million in lawsuits. Being able to consult with a CPA who is is also a tax attorney can keep you from making mistakes that cost you with the IRS and others. We all will be in the situation at some time in our lives that we need someone to look over contracts and make sure that our backs are protected. J Scott is offering some great advice when he says don't play the game without making sure that if you don't know all the rules you need to be able to rely on someone who does.
As an accountant and someone who represents taxpayers before the IRS. I give quotes all the time. I take a look at last year's returns and give a price. I don't charge to give someone a price. Nor do I charge for the answers I give here. Which inadvertently finds me clients who are searching for answers. I don't get paid for what I do here on BiggerPockets, nor do I get paid for answering the phone; however, it does cost me when that phone rings.
I will second what @J scott said, I wouldn't charge my client for doing that research either. That is my continuing education. Facts and circumstances investigation is another story.
IF ANY contractor came to me and billed for a quote, I'd kick him off my property and make sure my fellow investors knew this guy was an idiot.
No chance I'd pay for you to estimate my project. If you make sense, charge a fair price, and are willing to deal with me, I'll push all of my business and my clients business your direction.
Just today the plumber told me he charges to come estimate the project, I asked him if it's roughly a 4k job does he still charge? The answer was "Yes". I seriously wondered if it was april first....
Unfortunately Joe, this is where we've been forced to go by people like Alex who admitted above "As a learning process, I still got multiple bids for nearly every major task I did myself,..." and seemed proud of the fact. He had no intention of hiring anyone, he just took contractors away from their paying work or their families so he could learn about the work process. This is called "consulting" and all of those contractors deserved to be paid for their time. This is very common and it has to stop. Ask Google how much you're saving, stop wasting people's time, the internet is useful for more then just porn, it's great for research.
For me personally, I do a quick search of all my clients. If they're investors or real estate people, I tend to waive that fee because there's going to be more work in the future. I can't tell you how many times homeowners have said to me "If you give me a discount on this job, there'll be more work later." to which my reply is "If there's more work later, I'll give you a discount on that job." If the client was referred to me through "word of mouth", I never charge the fee. They are friends of an existing client and they already know the quality of my work and that I'm worth it. Those people aren't getting bids for curiosities sake, they're hiring me because they've seen my work or someone they trust told them to. Since 90% of my work comes through word of mouth, I rarely charge the fee.
This has been a great thread and I followed it closely. I don't know where I should deposit 25 cents, but hanks for indirect response, Derreck
While porn may provide instant gratification, internet research alone does not. Asking Google how much my HVAC installation will be is worse then asking Zillow how much your house is worth. Have you tried it?
Have you also tried test-driving different trucks without promising to buy them all before you settled on your F-250..? But I shouldn't assume what you drive, much like you shouldn't assume I "sound proud".
I've read J Scott's book on estimating repair costs, but it didn't make me an expert. I'm trying another approach.
But I will now go on and assume I know everything about you, what you've gone through or how hard your life is because I've read Oliver Twist.
This has been a great thread and I followed it closely. I don't know where I should deposit 25 cents, but hanks for indirect response, Derreck
While porn may provide instant gratification, internet research alone does not. Asking Google how much my HVAC installation will be is worse then asking Zillow how much your house is worth. Have you tried it?
Have you also tried test-driving different trucks without promising to buy them all before you settled on your F-250..? But I shouldn't assume what you drive, much like you shouldn't assume I "sound proud".
I've read J Scott's book on estimating repair costs, but it didn't make me an expert. I'm trying another approach.
But I will now go on and assume I know everything about you, what you've gone through or how hard your life is because I've read Oliver Twist.
What was indirect about it? I quoted you right from the start saying that comments like that piss me off.
Whenever I went to check out a truck, it was with the intent to purchase one. I never went to a Ford dealer and took a truck for a ride to just so I could see how much of a better deal I got on my GMC.
If you want an education, pay for it. Ask for a consultation and pay the person for their time. You stated you got multiple bids when you were already planning to do the work yourself. That's what I have a problem with. That's why many contractors had to start charging a fee. I don't have a problem with the bidding process for an actual customer (you know, the people that are actually planning to hire someone), but the problem has become ferreting out the "tire kickers" and devoting our time to the real customers.
If you don't want to pay for the education, come on to a forum like this one and ask "How much would it cost in the LA area to have my HVAC done by a pro?" There are plenty of people on here who would answer "I paid $1500 to have a guy do..." Don't call out contractors for bids when you have absolutely no intention of hiring one. We have lives, families, organizations we volunteer for, paying customers to talk to, and basically better things to do with our time. Don't you?
Go grocery shopping at the cheaper grocery store, then take your receipt to the expensive grocery store at 3 in the afternoon on Saturday and fill your cart with identical items. Then go to the register, stand in line for 10 minutes, and when the cashier rings up your cart, compare the total to your receipt and say "Sweet, I saved $15 by shopping at the other store!" then walk out without paying.
That would be a great use of everyone's time. The guy behind you in line would probably punch you in the back of your head!
I know it sounds ridiculous and no one would ever do this at a grocery store, but that's exactly what you do when you get bids on jobs you have no intention of hiring out.
Go grocery shopping at the cheaper grocery store, then take your receipt to the expensive grocery store at 3 in the afternoon on Saturday and fill your cart with identical items. Then go to the register, stand in line for 10 minutes, and when the cashier rings up your cart, compare the total to your receipt and say "Sweet, I saved $15 by shopping at the other store!" then walk out without paying.
Actually, most people do this at some point in their lives -- they visit multiple grocery stores to compare prices and decide where they want to shop. Perhaps they don't actually fill the cart and go through checkout, but they walk the aisles, compare prices and make a decision if they want to shop at that particular store.
To extend the analogy, this would be like calling multiple HVAC contractors and asking (for example), "How much would you charge to install a new Goodman 68,000 BTU, 95% efficiency furnace and 2.5 Ton compressor and coil?" You're trying to compare prices without wasting much (if any) of the contractor's time.
But, have you ever tried doing that? If you had, you'd know that most won't give you a price over the phone. Instead, they say, "Well, I'll have to come out and take a look at the job to give you an accurate estimate." No they don't. They don't *have to*. I've given enough information that they could (if they wanted to) give me an estimate. They generally don't want to. They'd rather come to the job and meet me and look at the job. It gives them a face-to-face opportunity to try to win the business. It's actually a sign of a contractor who is also a good businessman.
But, at the same time, it makes it impossible for an investor to not waste the contractor's time, especially when the contractor spends an hour looking at the job and quotes a price double what I'm willing to pay. Had he just given me a price over the phone, we all could have saved some time.
Now remember, I'm not faulting the contractor for doing this. Like I said, it's good sales and business tactics. But, if this same contractor gets upset that his time is wasted, he has to take some of the blame.
Derrick - I don't know if you're the type of contractor who is happy to throw out your prices or not over the phone (or over email or here on a forum)? If you are, perhaps you can save yourself some of those wasted trips by just asking the client what they need and ballparking the cost over the phone (many tasks can be ballparked without seeing the job)? If your not the type that is willing to do this, you should realize that you're trying to have it both ways -- you want the face-to-face opportunity to try to win the business, but you don't want to risk wasting your time.
Again, it's not my job to tell you how to run your business. There are way more successful investors than me who run their businesses in ways I wouldn't run my business, so clearly I don't know everything. But, as someone who is often a customer of businesspeople like you, I know how I think and what it would take to gain my business.
Again, it's not my job to tell you how to run your business. There are way more successful investors than me who run their businesses in ways I wouldn't run my business, so clearly I don't know everything. But, as someone who is often a customer of businesspeople like you, I know how I think and what it would take to gain my business.
I don't know how I missed this back in August, J., but I knew we were arguing the same side of the discussion.
That's exactly what I do. I give a "ballpark", estimated cost over the phone. I usually give a range based on two previous jobs, for instance; "That deck will cost about $3500 to $4000. I did one that size that was $3500 and another that was $4000, so your's should be in that range." Obviously no two jobs are going to cost exactly the same, there are variables to every project. To stick with the deck example, a rotted sill would be a price changer. Then there are the unforeseeable issues that can pop up, a granite ledge while digging the footings for example (They don't call it "The Granite State" for nothing!) that can also be a game changer. If the price is in the realm of possibility, then I will go to the site and check the sill, look for granite boulders popping out of the ground anywhere in the neighborhood, take exact measurements, create a sketch, and create a materials list. Then I can give a firm quote to the customer. I include all the paperwork in the quote, it's pretty much a DIY instruction sheet. That's what I charge $100 for (it usually takes me about 4 hours to create). If it's a client that I've worked with in the past, then I don't bother with all that. I quote the job and they say "Go ahead". I don't need to create sketches and lists for them, they already know my work, so I don't need to charge them for the "DIY manual".
I charge $40 per man-hour which is cheap for this area. Mr. Handyman charges $85 per hour! Most construction companies are in the $65 to $75 per man range. I also give discounts to repeat clients or cash clients. I'll post that here and anywhere else. It's listed on my website for the world to see! I am also a "Lead Safe Construction Supervisor with a Moderate Risk De-leading License" as well, which is were I add serious value over the Craigslist Hacks that will work for $15 an hour. I can save a client thousands in deleading costs if they get me in before the lead inspection! There are different laws after the inspection has been done. Stupid, but that's how the politicians wrote it up.