My next move: sell, remortgage, hold, diversify? Advice needed.

My next move: sell, remortgage, hold, diversify? Advice needed.

Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 0 votes

Hey guys. It’s my first time on the bigger pockets forums and I’m looking for some advice on my next investment move. Sorry for the long description but this needs some explaining.

I’m English but moved to Porto in Portugal about 6 years ago and bought my first house with my girlfriend. We paid €160k for a property in the centre of town which has 5 double bedrooms and 2 single rooms, plus a shop at the bottom of the building. We initially house hacked and lived there with tenants but over time Porto became popular with tourists so we bought another small house, moved out, and rented the whole house on airbnb.

Corona virus has meant that airbnb has dried up completely. I’m sure tourism will be back but this experience has just further cemented some things that we already were thinking about.

A - airbnb is a lot of boring work (cleaning, waiting for guests to arrive, etc) and is seasonal.

B - the house we have is only really useful for renting to groups on airbnb or renting as a shared house for students or younger people. The layout and shape of the building don’t really suit much else.

C - houses of that sized have probably increased in price as much as they will whilst smaller houses seem to have more room for growth.

D - Smaller houses are probably more liquid assets than bigger ones.

E - the house is now worth something like €550k but selling fees and capital gains will cost about €110k.

F - having €550k tied up in an asset that has an income of €50k a year before tax (which is quite high here), before expenses and takes quite a lot of work to run, might not be the best use of that money.

So really I want to know what other people would do in this situation. I could remortgage the house and use that money to get into some other smaller properties but that would leave us still owning the original house. We could try to rent that out to a family maybe but as I said it probably not the best use for it.

The other consideration is whether it’s a good time to buy or should I wait and see if prices drop with with economy.

Also, the Porto property increase is caused by tourism. The economy in general isn’t especially strong here. So that is a bit of a worry if tourism is permanently effected then property must drop in value.

There's a lot to consider so I'd love to hear what those of you with more experience think about this.

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  • Rental Property Investor · New Castle, DE · Member since 2017 · 95 posts · 102 votes
    6y

    Are you still currently cash flow positive even without the airbnb rented out? How much does the store front cover?

  • Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    Hey Tyrone, thanks for responding. The house is completely paid for so we have no outgoings in terms of mortgages. Running the airbnb through a company means you have to pay the company director a wage of at least 600 per month and an accountant 200 per month, plus a few other bills. The shop pays out only 400 per month at the moment. It could earn closer to 600 if we rented again, although that's not certain since corona. So currently the building is costing us money but of that some of it is a wage that is coming back to us. I have a job that also pays pretty well so there's no urgency to sell to get out if that's your concern. 

  • Property Manager · Centennial, CO · Member since 2019 · 95 posts · 63 votes
    6y

    Congrats on your success in RE! A job well done, and that's something to be proud of. You have so many choices that you can make; there's not going to be a perfect road to travel down, and definitely not a one size fits all approach. 

    For me, I'm into multiple streams of income. RE investing has treated me well, my RE business has treated me even better, and my stock portfolio has performed much better than anything I've ever done in RE. Good luck with the choice(s) you're about to make, and continued success!

  • Investor · Coimbra, Portugal · Member since 2015 · 54 posts · 37 votes
    6y

    @Howard Barrett hi, I am British/American (Birmingham to Denver in '93), but now I am in Coimbra. My American girlfriend and I, have been here for about a year and looking for our first Portuguese house hack similar to what you have done. We have prior experience with 12 properties in Colorado (that we still own), some of which are rented by-the-room. However we are not renting them to students. Have you considered renting to older tenants?

    Lisbon/Porto/Denver share a similar affordability problem, and single people working in the city have a huge issue finding reasonable accommodation. We have found that renting to this older group leads to less problems, better income stability, higher profits, and easy lease renewals. The tenants tend to be stable long-term since they cannot find as good a deal elsewhere.

    For our Denver properties we have set them up with nicer furnishings than you would for students, but similar services - we pay for internet/TV & utilities then offer the rooms as "all in" with no squabbling over who pays the bill. This will change your tax category from B (STR) to F (LTR).

    If you have the option to re-finance then I would take as much cash out as possible for a new investment. I am guessing that this property will still be cash positive, but maybe only just. That's OK, it should also be stable since you may only have one or perhaps two rooms that are vacant at any time.

    Also who are you using for mortgages? How investor friendly are they? Will they cash-out re-fi after a refurb / appreciation?

    Let me know if you want to meet for a chat, I am probably going to be in Porto for the weekend of Aug 1st.

    -- Mark

  • Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    Hey @Mark C. we did rent to some older tenants when we also lived there and it worked pretty well. It’s less common to have that kind of living arrangement in Portugal than say London, where most people live like that. Perhaps there’s more of a market for that these days though with Porto becoming more international. 

    Pre corona the house could earn between 2800-3500 per month renting room by room. Right now though, lots of airbnb places are offering rentals instead so the prices have dropped drastically and there’s lots on offer. I imagine this will change though soon. I spoke to the bank the other day and they said if I loan 300k against the property then I would have repayments of 1070 per month, so it stays cash flow positive. 

    It’d be great to meet up if you come to Porto and have a chat about this. Like I say I’m only recently really starting to take property investment seriously so it’d be good to hear what someone with more experience has to say. Plus I might be able to help you understand the Portuguese market a bit more. 

  • Investor · Coimbra, Portugal · Member since 2015 · 54 posts · 37 votes
    6y

    @Howard Barrett We started renting by-the-room in Denver about 5 years ago. At that time it was only common for students or for renting out a spare room in your own house. It has now become more common there. Like London, Brum, and many other large cities that have been doing it for decades, it will likely become common here too. Although there is a cultural gap, the tradition here is for multi-generational family sharing of a single property - so you may have 3 generations in a T3 rather than strangers sharing.

    The numbers look great on this with the cash-out. Time to go shopping for a new investment. Are you seeing much of a drop in prices there? We are seeing a few small drops here, and estate agents are hungry for buyers / offers. I have heard that offering around 20% under ask is a good place to start, but I don't have a good feel for this market yet so any advice there is welcomed.

    We were managing our properties ourselves until we left Denver. At that point we took on a direct hire to manage for us. He was a previous tenant that moved out to start an AirBnB house-hack in his own place, and was keen to learn about investing, so it is a good match, but a bit of a learning experience for all of us. We intend to manage PT properties ourselves, but language skills need to improve first.

    Plans are firming up for that weekend, and maybe we can meet on Friday 31st. 

  • Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Mark C. Property here usually sell 10% under asking price according to estate agents we’ve spoken with so starting at 20% under seems reasonable. Keeping your eye out for hand written vende-se signs could be a good way in too. Idealista and olx are good places to search. We brought a piece of land with a ruin from olx and the photos were dreadful, made it look like a boring old field, not the beautiful Douro side plot that it actually is. So there’s some poorly advertised private sales about that can lead to good deals. Language can be a tough barrier to over come. I’m still a long way from being fluent but can get by well enough. 

    Friday 31st sounds good to me for a meet up. 

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