Rental repairs wiping out profit

Rental repairs wiping out profit

Ocean Springs, MS · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 11 votes

Hi, I have been into rentals now for about 4 years.  We currently have 12 rentals, all sfh's.  What I am finding is that essentially we make no money and probably lose money slightly overall.  I was very careful when buying to cashflow at least $200/month after all expenses (most are over $300).   The problem is when a tenant leaves.  Often I am replacing floors, or painting/pressure washing, and other misc repairs.  And while it is quick to turn around and rent again, that 3-5k in repair costs kills the profit.  One unit needed a new AC, for example.  I am blessed to have family that does that so I got it replaced at wholesale, but it still wiped out a year or more of profit. 

I keep thinking all I have to do is buy more and more and eventually it will show profit.  But is that a reality?  I mean if I had 50, well then I have 50 roofs, 50 water heaters, 50 AC's, etc to maintain.  So do costs just adjust right along side cashflow?  

Since a kid I was taught the Robert Kiyosaki mentality of use debt and OPM.  So I don't pay for acquiring my rentals,  I have investors do that.  My responsibilities are the repair costs.  Maybe I should pay them off to open more cash flow, but that means sinking a ton of money into the business that could be doing something else. So is that really smart?

To those that have been doing it longer and maybe have more units, what have you found over the years?  Is there a breaking point where you have so many you start profiting?

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Rental Property Investor · Wadsworth, OH · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 18 votes
4y

@Victor Baronich

I didn't see anybody address what may be a common mistake. If you are experiencing high turnover with costly repairs it may be necessary to update/improve the units, raise the rent, and enjoy better tenants. They will usually stay long-term, pay on-time, appreciate your work, and not cause damage/cost you money. If you are operating at the lower end of the market, you will only attract the lower end of the Tenant pool.

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  • Scott JohnsonBusiness Member
    Specialist · Greenville, NC · Member since 2019 · 673 posts · 408 votes
    4y

    I believe you're misinterpreting Robert's point, @Victor Baronich. He's also very clear that:

    - Doing the same thing over and over again is insanity (shown by purchasing more like-kind rentals that eventually lose money due to repairs

    - Debt is like a loaded gun (When you say "investors" I'm guessing you're using very expensive money)

    He also speaks of how good Cash Flow is, but one primary use of the real estate for him is offsetting taxable income.

    It looks to me like you need to change your approach. Are you investing in A, B, or C properties? Are you renting to section 8?

  • Ocean Springs, MS · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 11 votes
    4y

    Scott,

    -I bought all 12 super fast, so I didn't have time to realize what was going to happen.

    -My investors are very cheap.  I have a big circle of wealthy friends and they know I know business (obviously not rentals, lol) so they lend me money for whatever I want to do, since I have a history of returning.

    No section 8, I would say mostly B.  They are nice houses in nice areas.  One or two are C's in low income areas.  I haven't seen a correlation between an area and the amount of repairs needed.

    Thanks!

  • Ocean Springs, MS · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 11 votes
    4y

    I understand.  But I also read on these forums, people making huge incomes from rentals. Or at least that is how it seems to be presented.  Should I not expect an income from rentals?  I am open to the idea that I am the problem.  In getting into this I was looking for an additional income stream, and not worried about tax shelters.


  • Investor · Member since 2022 · 9 posts · 15 votes
    4y

    Both my rentals are SFH's that I've held for 20 and 15 years. From my experience, it's worth waiting for the right tenants who will stay longer and take care of things -- even if it means letting the place sit empty longer than I'd like. That $3-5K cost involved with renter turn over becomes less of a big deal when renters stay for 5 or more years.

    I've also had great experience with section 8 tenants. You have to check references, but the rent is guaranteed.

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 826 posts · 809 votes
    4y

    @Victor Baronich did you account for Capex in your cash flow underwriting?

    The short answer to your question is that repairs and capex should not wipe out your profits.

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    4y

    If you are at $200-300 in cash flow prior to repairs and cap ex, being at $0 after them is a bit high for them but not far from normal. Your properties would need to generate strong appreciation and debt pay down to have an acceptable IRR. You're asking the right questions.

  • Ocean Springs, MS · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 11 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Allan C.:

    @Victor Baronich did you account for Capex in your cash flow underwriting?

    The short answer to your question is that repairs and capex should not wipe out your profits.


     Yes as well as vacancy.  Pretty much what is in the downloadable form off the site, and what it talked about on podcasts as well as in books from this site.  10% on capex doesn't always cover the expense though, especially with a new property (4 years) as there hasn't been enough time to bank up.  Which is why I'm wondering if over long periods of time it starts working.  I have a mix of about 30% new houses, and 70% older homes.  Obviously I don't get many issues out of the newer homes.   Are you guys buying older homes and then completely redoing things like ac and roofs so that you don't have those expenses later?  Or letting it play out over time? 

  • Ocean Springs, MS · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 11 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Mike Dymski:

    If you are at $200-300 in cash flow prior to repairs and cap ex, being at $0 after them is a bit high for them but not far from normal. Your properties would need to generate strong appreciation and debt pay down to have an acceptable IRR. You're asking the right questions.


     They do appreciate as we are in a good market for that (south ms, in jackson county).  I just sold one that profited more than what I originally paid for it in 3 years.  But my goal is to hold long term for an additional revenue stream.

  • Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    The main thing that is killing your flow is the turnover. No matter where or what kind of units you have, constant turn over destroys it. If that continues you will always be under water. The goal is to get great long term tenants. I have done this in F class areas so C and above is not difficult at all. 12 units with reliable cash flow for several years, combined with rent increases and appreciation will have you sitting pretty. Once reducing turn over renovations drastically, you still may encounter a few. Not sure exactly how far you take it but there are many ways to reduce those costs as well. If they were relatively decent and clean people who take care of stuff,  for the most part you would need is paint cleaning. 'You may want to check out 'Dr. Joe podcasts. He has mastered this and goes into great detail on what it takes to win at this. Best of luck. 

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4y

    For older homes, see what repairs are needed or need to be done in the near future as that will give you a better idea of expenses.  If the damage is being done by tenants, then look for better tenants and keep their deposits.  Vacancies and turn overs are always more expensive.

    I'd sit down and look at each of your rentals and see which ones are doing okay and which ones you should sell.  You can always buy another one that is in better condition and where the numbers are better.  Right now with the hot market is a good time to get rid of less desirable properties.

  • Ocean Springs, MS · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 11 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Mark Cruse:

     'You may want to check out 'Dr. Joe podcasts. He has mastered this and goes into great detail on what it takes to win at this. Best of luck. 


     Will check it out.  Thanks!

  • Rental Property Investor · Wadsworth, OH · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 18 votes
    4y

    @Victor Baronich

    I didn't see anybody address what may be a common mistake. If you are experiencing high turnover with costly repairs it may be necessary to update/improve the units, raise the rent, and enjoy better tenants. They will usually stay long-term, pay on-time, appreciate your work, and not cause damage/cost you money. If you are operating at the lower end of the market, you will only attract the lower end of the Tenant pool.

  • Investor · 06820 · Member since 2019 · 43 posts · 24 votes
    4y

    @Victor Baronich. I am having similar experiences with maintenance and capex and also scaled rapidly for me with 18 small C class multis properties in 4 years. For me, it’s one budget and the costs have been 2x more then expected, however a good portion of these expenses are intentional upgrades to increase rents, which has worked, but I am still overall negative cash flow. I love depreciation, so I also look at my results on a after-tax basis, but I am likely not buying any additional properties until I get a better sense of my overall costs. I am hopeful that as I make intentional improvements and good repairs, these cash needs will stabilize and I become better at operating these properties. If I am unable to improve my cash flow, I guess one option is to sell and become a passive investor. DM if you want to chat some more about this topic.

  • Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2020 · 26 posts · 23 votes
    4y

    @Victor Baronich

    I’ve seen some good feedback in this thread.

    I own a three SFH's too and shoot for $200-$300 clear each month so I understand where you are coming from. I save the $200-$300 for major repairs and reinvestment in the property. I've owned these rentals for ~ 4 years on average as well. I've felt some of your pain as well when things go wrong on the turnover/repair front.

    These are my thoughts:

    1. Watch your turnover. If they are leaving every year, that is tough as you lose 2-3 weeks of rent, even if things go well getting a new tenant. Make sure you are at market on your rates and don’t be too aggressive about raising rates to push your tenant to leave.

    2. $3-$5K for turnover repairs sounds high. I’m usually $1K or less. I also ask them to pay for wall painting or floor repairs if it is their wear and tear. I also live in a generally high priced market for costs.

    3. Define your goals. I’m playing the long game. While I cash flow, my goal is to build equity through appreciation and loan amortization. Cash flow growth will come.

    4. At 12 SFH, possibly start looking to roll up into multi-family. That is where you scale and profits grow because you generally can reduce structural repairs on roofs, etc compared to number of units. I recently bought a duplex and am thinking of how to 1031 my SFHs into multi the next couple years as equity builds.

    Good luck!

    Troy

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Victor Baronich:
    Quote from @Allan C.:

    @Victor Baronich did you account for Capex in your cash flow underwriting?

    The short answer to your question is that repairs and capex should not wipe out your profits.


     Yes as well as vacancy.  Pretty much what is in the downloadable form off the site, and what it talked about on podcasts as well as in books from this site.  10% on capex doesn't always cover the expense though, especially with a new property (4 years) as there hasn't been enough time to bank up.  Which is why I'm wondering if over long periods of time it starts working.  I have a mix of about 30% new houses, and 70% older homes.  Obviously I don't get many issues out of the newer homes.   Are you guys buying older homes and then completely redoing things like ac and roofs so that you don't have those expenses later?  Or letting it play out over time? 

    maitenance/cap ex really should not be a fixed percentage of rent.  A 3/2, 1300’ that rents for $4k has similar maintenance/cap ex as 3/2, 1300’ that rents for $1500. 

    Clearly you are not hitting your pro forma profit forecast. It appears you did not allocate enough for expenses in your pro forma.  You should be collecting metrics on your rental expenses and vacancies to improve the accuracy of future pro forma.  

    I suggest instead of abandoning future RE investing, you use your experience to purchase properties that will provide the return you seek.  This may require being more selective and taking your time. 

    Good luck

  • Investor · Eastern ID · Member since 2017 · 69 posts · 53 votes
    4y

    @Victor Baronich A couple of points.  

    @Mark Cruse made a great point. Turnover is one of the biggest expenses you can have. Tenenant screening may need some adjustment. Your deposit may be too low. I'm sure if you do or not, but I do not use move in specials or discounts.

    I have only been installing luxury vinyl plank flooring. I switched from click lock to glue down because you can easily replace pieces in the middle of the room without taking apart the floor. It is mostly water proof and it can look really nice. I have not used any carpet on these units. The tenants that want carpet will buy a rug they like for the living room area or bedroom. Some buy rugs with carpet anyway so it's not a big deal. That saves an absolute ton on flooring. As far as paint, I use a two-tone paint scheme but the colors are the exact same in every unit. There is no paint matching. I have also switched from the cheapest paint. It actually costs the same or less for more expensive paint because the coverage is better so you don't have to put as many coats on. Also, it is more resistant to scratches and abraision. PM me if you want the exact products I bought. 

    When you underwrite the deal, are you factoring in a lifespan of each major capex item? For eample, a roof may only last 15-20 years, so if it's on year 13, the house is worth less by the amount of .75 x price of new roof. Water heaters can be 7-10. I just assume up to 25% of the A/C units across the portfolio are going to need work every spring. They will need condensors cleaned, capacitor replacements, low frion resolved, etc. I'm not sure if I missed it in your posts, but do you have a repalcement reserves % you use? 

    Are you raising rents? Repair costs have jumped and it will be harder and harder to pay for those without regular rent raises. I do 1 year leases and then raise then raise the rent a few percent every year. Can you go through your portfolio and review rents comps on everything to make sure they are optimized? 

    I think more units will average out the expenses and smooth out the cash flow, but if the cash flow is negative anyway, something else will need to change. 

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

    @Victor Baronich any appreciation or debt paydown?

  • Property Manager · Raleigh/Durham NC · Member since 2015 · 210 posts · 293 votes
    4y

    @Victor Baronich

    -Reducing Vacancy: Some wait for the property to be vacant and in move-in ready condition before they show it. While this is safer in cases of a holdover tenancy, I personally begin showing 60 days before the end of the lease term and start the new lease approx 1 week after the old lease ends. I've already inspected the property at 60 days out and have my service providers lined up. I avg less than 1 week every 24+ months of vacancy. Additional ways to reduce vacancy are during the screening process. If your property is priced correctly you should have a few qualified applications. Talk to the applicants, pick the person who is likely going to stay long term vs the person that is transient and tells you they are renting while they shop for a new home.

    -Cap-Ex: Others in the thread have said it correctly. The 'rules of thumb' to save for Cap-Ex are dangerous. You really need to know before you buy a property the life span of your roof, HVAC & hot water heater. If they are at half-life or newer then using the 10% rule of thumb can be fine but if they are older than half-life you need to factor in the $7-10K for a new roof or HVAC etc. Also, are you replacing it instead of repairing it? Could that AC have been patched up and kicked that expense down the road another year or three and have the cash flow pay for it instead of you?

    -Suggestion: In your case, it's not too late. Asses the life span of the remaining 12 properties cap-ex items (and appliance etc) and determine if you are going to get walloped with another huge bill that will drain your cash flow. The ones that are going to be the most costly should be the ones that you consider doing a 1031X on that others have suggested above. 

    -Good luck

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    4y

    I can not understand the $200 to $300 a month cash flow . Not worth the time .   A roof here , a furnace there , a repaint and some repairs are just small bumps in the road . Normal operating expenses . 

    @Victor Baronich Sounds like the rent is too low , and or poor screening , and you didnt run numbers correctly . 

    More is not always better .   Bigger is not always better .  

  • Ocean Springs, MS · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 11 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Mitchell Pudelski:

    @Victor Baronich

    I didn't see anybody address what may be a common mistake. If you are experiencing high turnover with costly repairs it may be necessary to update/improve the units, raise the rent, and enjoy better tenants. They will usually stay long-term, pay on-time, appreciate your work, and not cause damage/cost you money. If you are operating at the lower end of the market, you will only attract the lower end of the Tenant pool.

    Mitchell, I am at the top of the market for the most part. I am around $1.46/sq ft on most rentals, which is extremely aggressive for the area. My last 3 tenants have left because they bought a home.




    Quote from @Troy Ballew:

    3. Define your goals.


    My goal is additional monthly cash flow. I have been very blessed in the fact that my wife and I created businesses in our 20's that allowed us to both retire at 30. Since then (7 years), I have been investing into different things to create more and more revenue streams. I have always heard the phrase, "you make your money in business, and keep your money in real estate". This confirms what we talked about above with taxes, but I listen to so many podcasts about people making significant monthly revenue from renting. I believe Brandon has over 100 SFH. He seems to be cash flowing fine.



    Quote from @Jace Holt:

    I have not been. All my properties are managed. The manager is extremely competent, but is not aggressive in this area. How much are you raising every year? Do tenants not buck that?


    Quote from @Nicholas L.:

    @Victor Baronich any appreciation or debt paydown?

    Yes, and that part is good. That's why I want to hold for long term, as I know once they are paid off, the monthly cash flow and the balance sheet will be better.

    Quote from Chris London:

    -Cap-Ex: Others in the thread have said it correctly. The 'rules of thumb' to save for Cap-Ex are dangerous. You really need to know before you buy a property the life span of your roof, HVAC & hot water heater. If they are at half-life or newer then using the 10% rule of thumb can be fine but if they are older than half-life you need to factor in the $7-10K for a new roof or HVAC etc.

    Good thinking. I have not done this. I usually look at the property and make an offer based on the condition of these items, but admittedly haven't taken them into account with the cash flow.



    Quote from @Matthew Paul:

    I can not understand the $200 to $300 a month cash flow . Not worth the time .   A roof here , a furnace there , a repaint and some repairs are just small bumps in the road . Normal operating expenses . 

    @Victor Baronich Sounds like the rent is too low , and or poor screening , and you didnt run numbers correctly . 

    What do you shoot for with per month cash flow?  I believe rent is very high for the area.  I definitely could have goofed the numbers.

    Do you mind sharing your requirements when looking for a rental?  Perhaps my criteria is too low.

  • Peter TverdovBusiness Member
    Developer · New Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    I've never understood people on this forum buying rentals to make $100 $200 a month or even the little shacks. Any large expense wipes you out.

    OP, sell them, do a 1031 and roll it into a larger property that better cashflows. JMO. 

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Columbus, OH (columbus oh) · Member since 2020 · 23 posts · 38 votes
    4y

    @Victor Baronich

    I experienced similar situations when we first started buying rentals that were SFRs. We quickly got away from SFRs and no we won’t buy anything below a triplex, even then we like to hit 4 units and above.

    My recommendation would be to liquidate and start a new portfolio.

  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    Always budget 10% for capex. I hope the repairs get lesser and your numbers get better. It's all part of it! Hang in there.

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Victor Baronich:

    One thing to keep in mind if you have a property manager, is a small rent increase may be better than an aggressive one every year.  Many PM charge a full month's rent to fill a vacant unit and that will very quickly eliminate any profit.  Also you are likely to have a one month vacancy, so long term tenants (even if a little bit below market) will get you further ahead when you have a PM.

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y

    @Victor Baronich   I agree turnover is one of your issues and you say you have a number leaving to buy homes. I would change your criteria  on screening to favor longer term renters.  Take people with longer term rental histories but maybe a lower credit score.   People with stellar credit scores buy houses. People who are tied to the area are also a good choice as they are less likely to move.

    The other thing I am not sure if you have had an issue with but is worth mentioning is planning repairs. Emergency repairs cost more. 

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