Zombie foreclosure in Texas

Zombie foreclosure in Texas

San Antonio, TX · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 3 votes

First of all, I had never heard of a "zombie foreclosure" until I started researching.   I have found a vacant house in my parents neighborhood which I am very interested in purchasing as a home for myself.   Both as an investment, but more so, so I can keep an eye on my parents.  

Back in Sept, my dad and I walked the property and looked into the windows and the house is fully trashed.   (piles and piles of garbage).   I called the phone  # that were listed on the notifications and discovered it's a property "financed" by Wells Fargo.  

After researching the title (downtown) and researching the previous occupants, I discovered the residents died 6 years ago.  

I, researched and tracked down the "heirs" and they were unaware that the property was still just sitting, 6 years later.    After much conversation, 2 of the "kids" (grown adults...police officer and nurse) made a trip up to San Antonio and met me at the property.  Ironically the police officer was able to access the property.   

So "mom and dad" died, there was no will, met with an attorney and 6 years ago, house was "under water" and over $10K due in back loan amounts.    Kids told WF to foreclose.   WF started process but never finished foreclosure.    

So forward to today, house is still sitting vacant, full of trash and becoming more and more delipidated each year.   

I am a cash buyer, as it IS unfinanceable.  The kids have filed for "affidavits of heirship" so that the conversation can begin with WF.   

WF has said:   House is in the possession of the homeowner.   They do not maintain it.  (however they have been paying property taxes for the past 6 years).   They have not foreclosed on it, nor can they foreclose, as there was a bankruptcy that must be released first.  Articles of Administration were filed 5 years ago, and everything is pending, and deadlines have passed to complete process.   In Texas A of A must be completed in 4 years.    

There are currently 2 small liens on the property from the City of San Antonio for a vacant property and from the HOA.

So with all that said, WF has stated that the "contractual balance due" is $79K but (with fees and such, since there has NOT been a payment on the house) the "past due balance" is $141k.    

The county appraisal is $155K, but this house has no appliances, needs a new roof, needs painting, cleaning....all said and done, there is a $25K rehab to get this house livable.   

WF has NOT foreclosed on the property due to (a) a bankruptcy and (b) although they do not want to admit it, they "lost" the property.   

The heirs are trying to negotiate a "settlement", keeping in mind the house was purchased for $89K in 1998 and $130K of payments have been made (ie WF has not lost money on the deal).

According to my research and the local Rex Report, this house should sell at auction in the $70K range.   And that is a last resort option for the bank.

I have understood that a foreclosure, esp with a bankruptcy release is a $20K expense for a bank.  Plus I know there are costs incurred even to sell a house at auction.   

Does anyone have any advice in the negotiating process with WF PRIOR to them (a) filing for release of bankruptcy and (b) foreclosure.   I would think they would be willing TO negotiate and get this house off their bad asset list, rather than continue to lose money and invest in a whole bunch of legal fees in order to sell at auction.  

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Greg H.Pro Member
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Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
8y

I would suggest spending $150 or so and getting a title report from a local title company

My guess is that it will come back with several liens/judgements and other title issues that most of which will only be wiped out by a foreclosure

Also keep in mind that with a property that has been vacant for 6-7 years, most of the systems will need to be replaced.  A purchase for $70K is more than likely paying too much

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  • Wholesaler, Rehabber and Landlord · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    This is a very unfortunate situation and it happens fairly often. 

    They will probably go with the balance plus the unpaid payments which will put the payoff amount way over what the property is worth. The banks dont always see things rationally.

    Nobody at the bank wants to stick their neck out and do something out of the ordinary. They have to go with the balance and the back payments due. Like little robots, they can not veer away from what they do everyday. Follow their rules like good employees.

    They will lose plenty of money on this deal. They more than make up for it though on other deals and all the interest and fees that they charge.

    Only if you can find an employee that is willing to be bold and not follow the rules can you get this house. 

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    I would suggest spending $150 or so and getting a title report from a local title company

    My guess is that it will come back with several liens/judgements and other title issues that most of which will only be wiped out by a foreclosure

    Also keep in mind that with a property that has been vacant for 6-7 years, most of the systems will need to be replaced.  A purchase for $70K is more than likely paying too much

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    8y
    It’s a short sale, plain and simple, except the heirs have to go thru whatever your state probate process is to obtain the right to sell. Forget about any analysis/justification/motivation you are trying to apply.....it all means nothing, and Yes WF is losing money. Find an experienced short sale agent, which WF will require anyway, and move forward. You are going to need to know all of the liens before structuring your offer.
  • Paradise, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    8y

    I'd be curious if you could expand on the "bankruptcy release" portion of your post. Never heard of anything like that. All assets are subject to trustee control until they aren't. Any bankruptcy with a deceased borrower is going to be dismissed eventually once the trustee files their notice of intent to abandon. They would have no reason not to file that. Any lender would file a motion for relief if it were subject to trustee control if the trustee didn't abandon the asset. Again, like the trustee, the lender/servicer would have no reason not to file that.

    And I've never heard of any "release" or action in BK court costing $20,000. Maybe a lawsuit in a BK court could cost $20,000 in litigation costs, but not the filing of any release that I've ever heard of in 25 years.

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    What I have read and understood, was that a foreclosure process costs the bank approximately $20K in legal fees.   There would also be an additional legal expense in filing paperwork and getting a judge to release the bankruptcy prior to a foreclosure process. 

    There has been an update as well.   After 3 months of filing affidavits, and getting all the legal heirship information corrected, and to WF.   The "heirs" contacted WF Probate and Preservation department and stated they wanted to offer a settlement / short sale on the property.   

    They have now been referred to a new department where a fax can be sent and photos can be faxed over as well.   Apparently "this" department has executives that can actually make a decision regarding the sale of the property.  

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    So an update, which I feel pretty darned good with!!   The "file" has moved to an actual person who can make a decision, and yes, it IS considered a "short sale".  I found an online "short sale" offer form and I (and the heirs) came up with an offer and presented it last week.    The end of this week, we will find out if the bank is "open to a short sale" offer.  I think they call it a "pre-approval for short sale"    

    The bank also wants to get a "professional" to appraise with consideration to the as-is condition of the property, and will even allow "us" to hire who we want.    So I have an appraiser who will meet me at the property and come up with a value.   The bank is more concerned that the value is "less than" the contractual debt balance.  

    The big issue here is the "contractual balance due"  (amount due after both owners had died) or if we are working off the "past due balance"  (balance has doubled since nothing has been paid in the past 7 years!  Considering that the house has been vacant and basically "lost" by the bank.  The only reason the property is back on the bank's radar, is that WE called and started asking questions about it!! 

    So that's the latest update......

  • Paradise, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jennifer Irwin:

    So an update, which I feel pretty darned good with!!   The "file" has moved to an actual person who can make a decision, and yes, it IS considered a "short sale".  I found an online "short sale" offer form and I (and the heirs) came up with an offer and presented it last week.    The end of this week, we will find out if the bank is "open to a short sale" offer.  I think they call it a "pre-approval for short sale"    

    The bank also wants to get a "professional" to appraise with consideration to the as-is condition of the property, and will even allow "us" to hire who we want.    So I have an appraiser who will meet me at the property and come up with a value.   The bank is more concerned that the value is "less than" the contractual debt balance.  

    The big issue here is the "contractual balance due"  (amount due after both owners had died) or if we are working off the "past due balance"  (balance has doubled since nothing has been paid in the past 7 years!  Considering that the house has been vacant and basically "lost" by the bank.  The only reason the property is back on the bank's radar, is that WE called and started asking questions about it!! 

    So that's the latest update......

     Thanks for the update.

    in my experience, the way this is structured in your post, it isn't gonna work. Yeah, makes sense and everyone wants to do the right thing but without the property being listed on the open market, and exposed to as many potential buyers as possible, I don't see them approving any short sale. The balance due will be the principle balance plus accrued interest and fees/costs. If that balance is more than the value, yeah, it would be a short sale.

    The bank's lien doesn't go away and while they've been paying taxes, they don't own it so, unless a sale pays off the entire balance, they have to agree to a short sale and the terms of the short sale. I've never seen a short sale (Well...not NEVER) that isn't listed on the MLS. It's also unheard of that the bank is going to let you hire the appraiser to use that appraiser's valuation. You must have the gift of gab to get a bank like Wells, who is in a lot of hot water with regulators, to bypass safe and sound business practices, just so you can buy this place.

    Also, $20,000 to foreclose? I've been doing foreclosures for 25 years and the only one ever close to that amount was a judicial foreclosure in Hawaii. Judicial foreclosures may cost that much but Texas is primarily a non judicial state. There is not need for judicial at this point based on just what you wrote. Finally, there is no bankruptcy any longer. Don't let that factor into your analysis at all. It has nothing to do with anything related to your project.

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Some of these articles are a little outdated...

    http://homeguides.sfgate.com/basic-foreclosure-fee....

    and another

    https://www.trulia.com/voices/Foreclosure/How_much...

    and another

    http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/622008_Foreclosur...

    But my figure of $20,000 to foreclose, came from a number of articles similar to these.  There are legal fees, realtor fee, auction fees, maintenance fees, and the list goes on.  

    ALL of the banks use trustee for the foreclosure process and it's hired out, which can be expensive for the banks.   

    I appreciate your input...

  • Paradise, CA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 871 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Jennifer Irwin:

    Some of these articles are a little outdated...

    http://homeguides.sfgate.com/basic-foreclosure-fee....

    and another

    https://www.trulia.com/voices/Foreclosure/How_much...

    and another

    http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/622008_Foreclosur...

    But my figure of $20,000 to foreclose, came from a number of articles similar to these.  There are legal fees, realtor fee, auction fees, maintenance fees, and the list goes on.  

    ALL of the banks use trustee for the foreclosure process and it's hired out, which can be expensive for the banks.   

    I appreciate your input...

    Well...realtor fees would obviously have nothing to do with the foreclosure and that fee alone would add 6% to the bottom line (Or take away from it). There wouldn't be any legal fees unless it was a judicial foreclosure. Maintenance fees and the list that goes on, are all carrying costs post foreclosure, but not foreclosure costs so, while I get your point, still, outside of protracted litigation, foreclosures don't cost anywhere near that.

    Also, lets make sure we are talking apples to apples. Using your SF Gate post as an example....late fees are not foreclosure fees. Granted, even the article admits those fees would not be material in the grand scheme but I'm just pointing out that those are not foreclosure fees. The reference to legal fees isn't valid either (Unless its judicial and I stated that in my first point that judicial is expensive but 99% of foreclosures in trustee states are non judicial). Also, unless the property has been abandoned and unless the property is in a jurisdiction requiring proactive management for the property, there are no "maintenance" costs. Taxes are not foreclosure costs either, just like late fees aren't. Finally, that 2008 ten year old article (From a Navy guy?) with a quote of $50 grand to foreclose, is a fantasy number pulled out of someone's hat (or pulled from worse places), that added all things NOT related to the actual cost to foreclosure as supporting figures for their numbers.

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Well a little update, YES the bank agreed to a short sale on the property AND they agreed that the NUMBER that the short sale will be based upon IS the "contractual balance due"on the date that the last signee died!!    

    The whole process has been held up as a year prior to both signees death, a bankruptcy was filed and was terminated about 6 months after "she" died.   The courts didn't even have record of her passing, and terminated based on "lack of payments made".

    I spent a little time, logging in, registering and downloading bankruptcy docs online and we sent over to the bank, the termination of bankruptcy.  

    The bank has pre-approved a short sale offer, but the heirs must first go though probate.   There is no one contesting and the affidavits of heirship have already been filed.   The minute probate is complete, an offer is being submitted, and closing can be done immediately.   

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2018 · 6 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    It's been a long process on this house, but we have finally made it to liquidations.    No probate was needed, just affidavits of heirship and determinations of heirship.   All "kids" have signed off, and yes, a realtor was brought in to complete final paperwork.   The bank requested a listing agent be brought on board, and even agreed to having the listing and buying agent be the same person.   He listed for less than contractual balance due (as per heirs request) and we put an "best offer" at the same.   (yes it will be a short sale)   We have had an appraisal done, for "for our eyes only".   The bank has never requested one.    The offer was put in last week with a 30 day closing date.   And so far, all is in motion....

    I'll update as we get more info.   

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2018 · 27 posts · 4 votes
    8y

    @Jennifer Irwin How'd it turn out? Any luck?

  • Member since 2019 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    6y
    Jennifer, there's no way you're going to leave us hanging on this property... right? What happened ?
  • Rental Property Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2020 · 21 posts · 9 votes
    3y

    @Jennifer Irwin did you ended up getting that property?

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