Auction Purchase - Title Question

Auction Purchase - Title Question

Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 29 votes

Hi, I am an investor in Tampa, Florida (Hillsborough County) and I recently won a property at auction. You initially deposit a non refundable 5% prior to auction, and than pay the 95% within 24 hours. 

Here is the situation / story: 

After winning the property I paid for an in depth title research (yes I know this should be done ahead of time but often there is not enough time to do it before hand. so lets not discuss that aspect of it here.)  The women of the title research called me back the morning of and told me "I do not think you should buy this property because the previous owner had filed for bankruptcy and because of this the foreclosure auction may be illegitimate and thus they may have a claim on the title and you could lose your purchase entirely".  I followed her advice and decided to not follow through with the 95% payment and lost my 5%. After talking with a friend of mine he had said that I SHOULD have purchased it any ways because there is 10 day period in which the judge will review the case and issue the title. If they find an issue, or if the previous owner files an objection than my 95% would be refunded by the court. This it is worth taking the risk. Unfortunately I did'nt know this until after.

Question:

So what if a similar situation happens again? Regardless of the county issuing the title to me 10 days later is it possible for the previous owner to come after me with a lawyer like 30 days later saying I don't have a legitimate claim to this property despite the county issuing me a title? Or is it that when the title is issued, that is it case closed. This is important information to know. I lost $5,000 this time and felt that I should have in fact bought the property! 

Any advice from someone with a similar experience please let me know.

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Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
10y
When BK is filed, it automatically Deluca the auction, of scheduled. Then the bank goes to BL court and gets the stay lifted, then the auction is rescheduled and sold. Your title agent is misinformed/overly cautious. Worst that could happen if property is sold when it shouldn't be is you'd get reimbursed. You can look at the foreclosure case file, docket events, and see what happened and when.
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  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y
    When BK is filed, it automatically Deluca the auction, of scheduled. Then the bank goes to BL court and gets the stay lifted, then the auction is rescheduled and sold. Your title agent is misinformed/overly cautious. Worst that could happen if property is sold when it shouldn't be is you'd get reimbursed. You can look at the foreclosure case file, docket events, and see what happened and when.
  • Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 29 votes
    10y

    I appreciate the feedback but can you use normal terms, I know BK as Burger King, what is a Deluca? sounds like a last name, BL court?

    Can you give me some more information about the foreclosure case file? I am able to look at the county records but there is no foreclosure case file available online, is that something that is only available by actually going to the court house? How would I go about seeing the docket events? This is something I would have liked to follow up with so I can learn. I missed a seriously good opportunity here due to the person giving me bad information.  

  • Real Estate Investment Attorney · Kingsville, MD · Member since 2016 · 643 posts · 408 votes
    10y

    @William Howley

          It has happened to me several times. One memorable occasion I was the winner of a Baltimore Courthouse step auction. The Trustees took my deposit. I was then informed the Owner filed Bankruptcy literally one minute before the scheduled sale time to screw with the Bank. The Trustees returned my deposit and the sale was cancelled.

          In your case, I don't know the Florida laws, but I assume if the foreclosure trustees can't convey good title  you would get your deposit back. I would not do a Bankruptcy search before the sale (not legal advice). I would recommend getting title insurance to guard against any title defects missed by the title examiner. Also you need to read the sale advertisement to become aware of what is required of the purchaser and the seller. If you have questions call the Trustees or Auctioneer.

         Rich Baer, Esq.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y
    BK=bankruptcy. Deluca=auto correct for mistyped it delays. Court case dockets should be online....clerk of court-court cases, civil. Your clerk may be slightly different than ours. Google county name-court case files-you can see the filing dates/events. To read the documents you have to go in person.
  • Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @William Howley

    Filing for bankruptcy places an "automatic stay" on all the debtors assets meaning that the foreclosure cannot take place until the bankruptcy judge (or trustee) releases the property from the bankruptcy.

    Typically in the introductory remarks the attorney or sheriff conducting the sale disclaims any liability for title issues with the exception that if they are unable convey title the money will be refunded.  In the case of bankruptcy, the BK court comes first and the sale is not allowed unless specifically released.

    To clarify @Rich Baer's post regarding "good" title, he is only talking about conveying ownership. There could be all sorts of issues including judgments, taxes, HOA dues, IRS liens, etc. And the lender may be a junior lien. Free and clear title is not warranted at sale.

    A good title company should know all of this.  If you do this again, use someone else.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    @William Howley

    Here's the link 

    https://hover.hillsclerk.com/caseSearch.html

  • Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 29 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @William Hochstedler:

    @William Howley

    Filing for bankruptcy places an "automatic stay" on all the debtors assets meaning that the foreclosure cannot take place until the bankruptcy judge (or trustee) releases the property from the bankruptcy.

    Typically in the introductory remarks the attorney or sheriff conducting the sale disclaims any liability for title issues with the exception that if they are unable convey title the money will be refunded.  In the case of bankruptcy, the BK court comes first and the sale is not allowed unless specifically released.

    To clarify @Rich Baer's post regarding "good" title, he is only talking about conveying ownership. There could be all sorts of issues including judgments, taxes, HOA dues, IRS liens, etc. And the lender may be a junior lien. Free and clear title is not warranted at sale.

    A good title company should know all of this.  If you do this again, use someone else.

     Hi William, I believe I understand all that is stated above but I believe we are missing the main point / question. The bankruptcy is supposed to cancel anyone from foreclosing on the property but what if the foreclose happens any ways and you are the person that bought it? kind of like an "illigitimate foreclosure". Now lets say Hillsborough county does not know there is a bankruptcy in play and issues the title to you in 10 days... You have 100% equity in this property but does the previous owner still have the right to come after the property after the fact? or is it that when the new title is issued they missed their opportunity to object. I understand that if the county found the bankruptcy they would issue a refund, but not sure about after. 

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    I've Never seen the clerk issue a deed with a BK pending, where the property wasn't released from the BK stay.  Again, at worst case, they would have to redeem, which means you get your purchase price back in full.  The link above allows you to see in the case docket where the BK was "noticed" in the foreclosure case, then later you will see where the bank submitted a "relief from the stay" from the BK judge, allowing the foreclosure to be scheduled/rescheduled.  BK's really are  non issue for a foreclosure bidder......if it makes to the auction, bid on it.

    BTW, a one hour sit down with a real estate/investor attorney, for a few hundred bucks, will/would have saved you thousands in mistakes, and the deal, and make you more confident than asking friends and us random guys on the internet.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @William Howley  Wayne Nailed it 

    and all the other responses are very good.

    this is one of the things I like about court house half the people show up and don't really know what they are doing when they should get schooled first then go bid.. its really quite amazing to me.

    the BK stuff is very rudimentary when it relates to bidding at auctions this should have been no issue for you and it won't be going forward .. but it was a 5k lesson.

    I have had at least 20 over the years that I got my check back because of a last second BK.

    But foreclosure's on their face are risky business.  And NO one is immune from having some wonky thing you never heard of hit you... but if you know the basics going in you should be in good shape.

    but I would be uber cautious if I was dealing with most if not all my liquidity.. I would not be buying foreclosures with my last dollar.. or money I could not afford to lose or have the funds to protect myself. 

    I got in a bru ha ha with wells fargo one time that cost us 60k.. LOL.. and we were right.. but they sued and clouded title and how are you going to fight those boys..

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    @Wayne Brooks I guess I will have  to update  my glossary of Real Estate terms to include Deluca. LOL

  • David SichermanPro Member
    Vendor · Lake Worth, FL · Member since 2014 · 712 posts · 149 votes
    10y

    Oy, do your searches before, and use a better company, lady was clueless about florida county auctions obviously. Tough and expensive lesson but not uncommon. Can't tell you how many customers come to us right after they paid the other 95% only to find out they bought an HOA or other junior lien so you got off easy.

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