Don't pay your down principal early- Keep PMI and Flood Insurance

Don't pay your down principal early- Keep PMI and Flood Insurance

Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2017 · 36 posts · 26 votes

I’m a number guy. I spend countless hours on excel spreadsheets running ProFormas on every possible situation. I want to know what the BEST possible outcome is, WORST possible, projected actual outcome, forced appreciation outcome, etc. I want to know if every single thing went wrong, what would it look like to my pocket book. And for giggles, I like to see if absolutely everything went 150% correct, how quickly could that accelerate me towards my goals. And, what steps do I have to take to force the latter option.

I constantly struggle between the Rush Limbaugh, no debt, and the maximum leveraged approach. I typically find myself somewhere in the middle, where I pay down a little extra each month, but I make sure that I have enough cash building up for my next financed deal. I think a lot of people fall here, and it is a reasonable approach.

I have run countless proforma’s showing what the upside will be if I pay down my principal in record time. Its great! … on paper. I see, WOW! I could pay thousands less on interest over the course of 30 years. Or I could be debt free on this property 10 years early and that will quadruple my cashflow. All things that are VERY appealing. However, in running these proforma’s I have recently discovered how much I am losing out on in the meantime.

I recently read Craig Curelop’s, Private Mortgage Insurance (PMI) Isn't All Bad, and it completely changed my way of thinking. Craig walks through 2 scenarios where one individual has an opportunity cost of building up enough funds to not pay PMI and the negative effects of this mindset. This was tough for me to grasp because I hated the thought of PMI.

I am currently in the process of finding my second house hack, a duplex – making Craig proud! I have landed on a potential property. The property is exceptional, and I am very excited about the potential purchase. However, there are two bruises rearing their ugly heads at me. These have taken quite a while for me to wrap my head around fully, even though the numbers work when I account for these! I cannot purchase the property at 20% down, so I will proceed with FHA financing, and PMI will be on the property for the life of the loan (assuming I don't refi, yada yada yada). Secondly, the property is in a flood zone. This one is particularly frustrating. Mortgage law makes banks require Flood Insurance on homes that are in FEMA flood zones. FEMA has not updated majority of these maps for years, but that is another complaint. I have had a difficult time accepting that I will have to pay nearly $400-500 per month additional for both of these combined. $400-500 out the door, not benefiting my principal, and hurting my bottom line greatly. All I get stuck on is that without these, I could make an extra $6,000 per year!

So, because of my personal need to run excessive proforma's to figure out exactly what I can do to better my situation, I determined, I can pay an extra $1000 per month (making this now a negative cashflow property), and make the property down 15 years soon! NICE! That means, in 15 years, I can cancel flood insurance, have no PMI, and now no financing! Perfect. I only need to put up with this for 15 years of a negative cashflowing property and then I'll be good! Right? But what am I losing in the meantime for these 15 years?

Like I said, the numbers work for me, cashflowing positively WITH PMI and Flood insurance. So, after reading Craig's article (mentioned above), it all finally clicked and I ran one more ProForma. This time, all I was looking at is the cost of financing, i.e. interest, PMI, and Flood Insurance.

As seen in the table, the purchase price is $380,000 and I am only able to put 6% down, bringing the loan amount to $357,200. And my current bank provided interest rate on a 30 year loan is 3.625%. At my first payment, my interest is $1,080 (rounded). I have received a flood insurance quote at $150 per month ($1,850 annual premium). And PMI is shown at .8% of the loan amount or roughly $240 per month. With all of this assumed above, I have shown the annual cost to financing this deal at $17,650 bringing me to an adjusted interest rate of 4.94% of the loan.

Yes, I thought I had a win with a 3.625% interest rate, and it hurts to see that interest rate at a 4.94% rate! But when I saw this, it made me realize, I can make more money through simple index fund investing (read Scott Trench’s Set for Life) and other real estate deals that beat my 4.94% interest rate. Not to mention, this rate will decrease as PMI decreases; although minimal, there is still an upside. So, if I were to stick with my original plan of dumping excessive cash into this property to get the loan paid off in record time, I would only be beating a 5% interest rate, but losing higher yield investment opportunities. Right now, I can count on index funds being between 7-9% and certain real estate deals as much as 11-15%. This has completed changed my mindset on debt leverage and the potential upside that I have.

With Flood Insurance remaining roughly the same and accounting for inflation and PMI decreasing over the life of the loan, I could expect to pay roughly $100-130k from these to costs alone. Now, if I choose to invest that $500 per month ($6,000 per year) instead of putting it towards principal the benefits could be astronomical. With the beautiful thing they call compound interest (the extend of which is not covered in the scope of this article) on an average of 8% on index funds I could see over $600k in 30 years. Or at a 12% return in real estate investing, I could see nearly $1.5million in 30 years.

In summary, I am an over analyzer as I like to see all options of every deal. That being said, don't shy away from PMI and other financing incurred expenses, if your deal is cashflow positive. They can be extremely discouraging at first, but if you look at the macro-level picture, it can be easy to tell that you still have a great opportunity to succeed. With easy index fund investing and real estate networking deals, explore all of your options to determine if these expenses are just a cost of doing business. Because the worst deal here, is no deal at all. It can be a tough pill to swallow, but you have to spend money to make money.

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Real Estate Broker · Northeast PA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
6y

Leverage is all GOOD...  Until it isn't.  All the spread sheets in the interverse won't do a bit of good when things go sideways.

Remember, leverage is a two-edged sword.  A little bit of cushion for the pushin will go a long way.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2017 · 36 posts · 26 votes
    6y

    @Erik B. Yes, I unfortunately had come to the realization that this house could be worth much more outside of the flood zone. However, if it was, I would likely not be able to/not want to afford this specific property. And my current goals are focused less on equity value and more on cashflow. I.e. I don't care to call myself a millionaire, a thousandaire, or any title referring to my personal asset value. I care more about finding deals that provide monthly/consistent cashflow that push me towards my goal of being financing independent.

    Thanks for reading! I agree with the outdated and upside down flood system that is currently in place. I've been doing some research on LOMA's (Letter of Map Amendment), and am looking into this option once I have closed on this property. Essentially, my understanding of a LOMA is having a surveyor come to your specific property, determine elevation (instead of from an outdate map as FEMA does), determine adjacent structure (levees, dams, etc.), and can provide an Amendment from FEMA for your specific property to be considered out of the flood zone.

    Anyone have any experience with LOMA's that can share some insight?

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    6y

    @Cameron O'Connor my point on Dave Ramsey was that people love to put his cash only strategy down, but there is much more to his story. I am not a Dave Ramsey hardcore follower, but I recommend reading his books to understand his core concepts. Keeping a budget is a huge one. Any business would do that, but most households don't. Running my personal finances like a business had the biggest impact on my ability to gain wealth. 

    As far as a flood zone, saying any other natural disaster can happen is a straw mans argument. It is like people who smoke cigarettes and they say, "well I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, so you can die any time." Knowingly taking on risk is different than random risk. It is all about statistical probability. When a levee breaks and the entire area floods, it is a nightmare. People forget that flooding causes sewer backup, so the property becomes a bio hazard situation. When hundreds of houses are affected, it is near impossible to get a crew in to deal with the problem, so mold grows and the damage gets worse over weeks and months. I agree with your point that within a flood zone, some properties fair better than others. I just don't see the point in taking the risk. 

    Just out of curiosity, why are you buying in a flood zone? Is it just because it is a good deal? I would argue you are better off paying more for a house that would appreciate more. I would rather that extra $150 per month go towards principal than insurance.

    As far as a savings account, at .01% interest you need to find a new bank. There are many no-minimum savings accounts that are getting 1.8% currently and fully FDIC insured. You are not going to get rich, but you will pace inflation and there is no risk. That is where I recommend holding short term money for investment opportunities.

    Good discussion and thanks for taking the time to respond. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Amityville, NY · Member since 2018 · 351 posts · 441 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Cameron O'Connor:

    @Erik B. Yes, I unfortunately had come to the realization that this house could be worth much more outside of the flood zone. However, if it was, I would likely not be able to/not want to afford this specific property. And my current goals are focused less on equity value and more on cashflow. I.e. I don't care to call myself a millionaire, a thousandaire, or any title referring to my personal asset value. I care more about finding deals that provide monthly/consistent cashflow that push me towards my goal of being financing independent.

    Thanks for reading! I agree with the outdated and upside down flood system that is currently in place. I've been doing some research on LOMA's (Letter of Map Amendment), and am looking into this option once I have closed on this property. Essentially, my understanding of a LOMA is having a surveyor come to your specific property, determine elevation (instead of from an outdate map as FEMA does), determine adjacent structure (levees, dams, etc.), and can provide an Amendment from FEMA for your specific property to be considered out of the flood zone.

    Anyone have any experience with LOMA's that can share some insight?

     Cameron I agree with you. This property might not be a viable investment if it wasnt for the flood zone. Having less market value could very well be giving you the opportunity to cash flow even with the added expense of flood policy.

    I have tried to go the route of an elevation certificate to no avail. They have wanted us to fill in basements and crawlspaces (only 2ft deep) to reduce the policy amount. They have a major concern of static pressure from outside causing foundation to collapse. From my understanding, there is a politician in the middle of the country in a state that doesnt have flooding issues making the calls and rules about the fema policies.

  • Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2017 · 36 posts · 26 votes
    6y

    @Joe Splitrock A couple of his books are on my "To-Read" list. Any suggestions of specific ones that you found overly helpful?

    You have a fair point, that was not the best argument, I am no lawyer, nor trying to convince anyone of a deal that works for me. However, my only point with this is, there are inherent risks with any property and I think a full evaluation of these risks are very important, rather than a blanket "Do not buy from a flood zone" type approach.

    This property, while in a flood zone is exceptional. And I understand the negative impact of the flood zone, however, that is the exact reason I have been able to get a better deal on this. People are not as interested when they here it is in a flood zone, which can lead to sellers increase motivation as time ticks and they don't have interested offers. It would be ideal to put that $150/mo towards another deal, or a larger down payment on a different property, but I don't think that erases the fact that this is a solid deal. I remember a comment that David Green made, it was along the lines of - don't think of buying properties as if I don't want to buy this one, because I might miss out on another property that comes up. But rather, think of it as I will buy this property because its a good deal AND the next one that comes up. 

    So frankly, in my opinion it has come down to, this is a good deal, that works for me, I don't need a home run on every property. Instead, consistently hitting singles will win the game - the game of financial independence.

    Sounds like I do need a new bank! Chase only offers .01%, but frankly, I completely ignore this interest and only use Chase because of their ease of use and large integration in my area.

    Thank you for the incite and continued conversation!

  • Jason BottPro Member
    Insurance Agent · Nationwide · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Cameron O'Connor:

    @Erik B. Yes, I unfortunately had come to the realization that this house could be worth much more outside of the flood zone. However, if it was, I would likely not be able to/not want to afford this specific property. And my current goals are focused less on equity value and more on cashflow. I.e. I don't care to call myself a millionaire, a thousandaire, or any title referring to my personal asset value. I care more about finding deals that provide monthly/consistent cashflow that push me towards my goal of being financing independent.

    Thanks for reading! I agree with the outdated and upside down flood system that is currently in place. I've been doing some research on LOMA's (Letter of Map Amendment), and am looking into this option once I have closed on this property. Essentially, my understanding of a LOMA is having a surveyor come to your specific property, determine elevation (instead of from an outdate map as FEMA does), determine adjacent structure (levees, dams, etc.), and can provide an Amendment from FEMA for your specific property to be considered out of the flood zone.

    Anyone have any experience with LOMA's that can share some insight?

    Cameron, why buy the property and then look into remapping?  Why not do it before you make an offer?

    Once you have the true determination of the flood zone, then get the flood insurance quoted for you as the new owner.  The seller may have grandfathered pricing that you can not duplicate with a new quote.

    Keep in mind that the NFIP (National Flood Insurance Plan) has been heavily subsidized the last 20 years and the they have been remapping to appropriately charge each property owner.  They are trying to slowing remove the subsidies moving forward, which means those property owners in the highest risk zones will see the sharpest increases.

     Good luck with it.

  • Rental Property Investor · Amityville, NY · Member since 2018 · 351 posts · 441 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Jason Bott:
    Originally posted by @Cameron O'Connor:

    @Erik B. Yes, I unfortunately had come to the realization that this house could be worth much more outside of the flood zone. However, if it was, I would likely not be able to/not want to afford this specific property. And my current goals are focused less on equity value and more on cashflow. I.e. I don't care to call myself a millionaire, a thousandaire, or any title referring to my personal asset value. I care more about finding deals that provide monthly/consistent cashflow that push me towards my goal of being financing independent.

    Thanks for reading! I agree with the outdated and upside down flood system that is currently in place. I've been doing some research on LOMA's (Letter of Map Amendment), and am looking into this option once I have closed on this property. Essentially, my understanding of a LOMA is having a surveyor come to your specific property, determine elevation (instead of from an outdate map as FEMA does), determine adjacent structure (levees, dams, etc.), and can provide an Amendment from FEMA for your specific property to be considered out of the flood zone.

    Anyone have any experience with LOMA's that can share some insight?

    Cameron, why buy the property and then look into remapping?  Why not do it before you make an offer?

    Once you have the true determination of the flood zone, then get the flood insurance quoted for you as the new owner.  The seller may have grandfathered pricing that you can not duplicate with a new quote.

    Keep in mind that the NFIP (National Flood Insurance Plan) has been heavily subsidized the last 20 years and the they have been remapping to appropriately charge each property owner.  They are trying to slowing remove the subsidies moving forward, which means those property owners in the highest risk zones will see the sharpest increases.

     Good luck with it.

     I've been dealing with what they call a "community policy". The rate for these policies is in my experience between $2400-$2600 per year. Covered up to $250k.

    It does not matter if it is a 600 sf cottage  or a 5000sf high end home with the best finishes. it also doesnt seem to matter how high the actual house sits on  the  property (or the elevation of the house.  As stated earlier I have had 2 diff properties this year with flood policies.  One tiny home that didnt flood main floor (water in basement) was mor expensive the the larger home that had about 2 feet of water.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Cameron O'Connor:

    @Joe Splitrock A couple of his books are on my "To-Read" list. Any suggestions of specific ones that you found overly helpful?

    You have a fair point, that was not the best argument, I am no lawyer, nor trying to convince anyone of a deal that works for me. However, my only point with this is, there are inherent risks with any property and I think a full evaluation of these risks are very important, rather than a blanket "Do not buy from a flood zone" type approach.

    This property, while in a flood zone is exceptional. And I understand the negative impact of the flood zone, however, that is the exact reason I have been able to get a better deal on this. People are not as interested when they here it is in a flood zone, which can lead to sellers increase motivation as time ticks and they don't have interested offers. It would be ideal to put that $150/mo towards another deal, or a larger down payment on a different property, but I don't think that erases the fact that this is a solid deal. I remember a comment that David Green made, it was along the lines of - don't think of buying properties as if I don't want to buy this one, because I might miss out on another property that comes up. But rather, think of it as I will buy this property because its a good deal AND the next one that comes up. 

    So frankly, in my opinion it has come down to, this is a good deal, that works for me, I don't need a home run on every property. Instead, consistently hitting singles will win the game - the game of financial independence.

    Sounds like I do need a new bank! Chase only offers .01%, but frankly, I completely ignore this interest and only use Chase because of their ease of use and large integration in my area.

    Thank you for the incite and continued conversation!

     Dave Ramsey - Total Money Makeover is the main one to read. I don't follow everything he says, but I am a fan of taking some good ideas and using those. It doesn't have to be all or nothing with any input. 

    When I was new in the rental business, I was very much like you. Take each situation case by case and analyze each situation in depth. Over time I learned it is better to have "rules" and apply those. No flood zones is one. Once you start making exceptions, you talk yourself into things that are a bad idea.

    I hear what you are saying about bank convenience. I use local and chain banks for checking and hold my money in an online savings account. Several banks are offering 1.8% or even higher. Google search "best savings account interest rate" and you will have ten options to choose from. I can transfer funds online very easily, so for no hassle I can at least pace inflation, yet still keep my money safe and ready. For me the stock market is too volatile today for short term money. It will be rocky as we head into an election year, so get ready for a wild ride.

  • Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2017 · 36 posts · 26 votes
    6y

    @Jason Bott how do you submit for remapping or LOMA or other tools that I am not aware of before owning the property? Is this possible?

  • Jason BottPro Member
    Insurance Agent · Nationwide · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Cameron O'Connor:

    @Jason Bott how do you submit for remapping or LOMA or other tools that I am not aware of before owning the property? Is this possible?

    Cameron, I'm not 100% sure as I have only looked into 2-3 times int he last 10 years, but think you need to coordinate through the municipality where it is located.  That would be my first call.

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 3 posts · 3 votes
    6y

    Hey Cameron,

    Don't mean to take away from the heart of the discussion but I wanted to ask:

    I didn't see it asked in the previous set of responses to the thread (maybe it was), but why did not you not include insurance (home) and property taxes in your "adjusted interest rate"?

  • Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2017 · 36 posts · 26 votes
    6y

    @Joshua Ratliff No problem, fair question. The reason I did not include that is because Tax and Property Insurance must be paid regardless of financing. Flood and PMI are only required because the bank financing (and federal laws). Once the property is paid in full, Tax and Property Insurance will still need to be paid. They are included in my expense calculations, along with vacancy, maintenance, CapX, etc. but those are beyond the scope of this article.

    Thanks for reading!

  • Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2017 · 36 posts · 26 votes
    6y

    @Jason Bott Thanks for the heads up. I will look into that and see what I can figure out. Appreciate the insight!

  • Developer · New Orleans, LA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 898 votes
    6y

    @Cameron O'Connor  Even with a very low chance of flooding, I believe that keeping it makes sense to always have flood insurance.  A flood event is not a small or cheap event for property.  Flood events are typically whole home catastrophic level events. Think 2 feet of water does not sound like much? It means that all flooring, furniture, base cabinets, 4ft of drywall, most trim work, all floor and wall insulation, alot of the electrical (wall plugs are only 14in above the floor), none solid core doors, etc will need to removed and replaced.  

    I would think it would make more sense to work on flood mitigating the property such that you can get an elevation certificate that indicates that lowest floor for FEMA designation is the first floor and not the basement. Since we dont have basements where I live, I cant say exactly how to do this. But around me, if we can elevate all mechanicals to above the lowest floor, than that does reduce our risk and the elevation certificate (for example, a raised house with the first floor (no basement) elevated 3ft above grade, but the AC compressor is on a slab on grade, will get an elevation at grade, not 3ft above, since the mechanicals is at grade, raising the AC compressor raises your elevation). Also, if the property is raised above the surrounding area, the actual elevation may be higher than what FEMA assumes. An elevation survey is typically cheap, like $250-300 and go forever.

    I would also caution about flood insurance rates. They are likely to go up, not down, in the future.  The flood program has been running a huge deficit for the past decade, and eventually, the government will not want to subsidize it any more.  So you already very high premium will go up.

  • Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2017 · 36 posts · 26 votes
    6y

    @Mike Wood Thanks Mike, that is very helpful! My background is in construction and have dealt with serious flood remediation on some of my projects. I agree, it is extremely expensive, all contractors add a premium because they know you need to get it done ASAP and know it's an insurance claim (not ethical but hard to prove otherwise) and just a major pain in the behind. 

    The advantage of this specific property is the first floor is at least 3 feet above grade, and the grade is inclined and probably another 3-4 feet above street level. There is also a basement, but this basement has no drywall, doors, wood trim, and outlets are higher off the ground - likely for just this reason. And it was an extremely well built and thoughtful house. Now, there are mechanicals in the basement, so I appreciate your insight greatly, as I will definitely look into a way to elevate these.

    Duly noted on the rise of flood insurance premium. Not looking forward to that.

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