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Updated about 6 years ago, 11/06/2018
Where are the real investors? Any one know?... Bueller... Bueller
BiggerPockets for a long time was a great place where investors could meet and exchange information and work together. Over the past year I have noticed a trend of a lot more newbies coming in just looking for information and a lot less real players who truly invest and work together.
SO... I have two questions....
1) Has anyone else noticed this trend?
2) Where are the real real estate investors conversing if not on this forum?
Trying to figure out where everyone went.
-Steve
Maybe Bigger Pockets could use a software similar to an plagiarism checker. I remember when I was in college one of my English professor required us to submit every essay through this before submitting it. If your essay was above a certain percentage matched, it was back to the keyboard ( you could not submit it). It could check previously asked questions by members and if yours matched a certain percentage, no need to post. Just go to those questions and read what has already been touched on. Just food for thought. I am forever grateful for the knowledge I've gained by BP members, without it I don't think I would be where I'am today with my goals.
Hmmmm, I have some mixed feelings. On one hand, I don't mind answering questions and helping out newer investors find their way. It's daunting to learn all the elements that go into being a successful real estate investor. At the end of the day, I don't want to see anyone go into a bad deal and lose money. On the other hand, I've been frustrated with posting properties and investments only to have a bunch of tire kickers with no money asking me questions. Lots of complaining about finding good properties and when I offer up a solid property, nothing.
This site is really geared towards newbies on purpose I think. Pro membership obviously gets you a bit more but ya, the more seasoned investors network 1 on 1 rather than in forums. I think that's just the natural evolution of things.
- Residential Real Estate Investor
- Kansas City, MO
- 4,856
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- 10,067
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I haven't really noticed this, but BP is first and foremost, an educational site directed primarily although not exclusively at new investors. So it wouldn't be shocking.
BP is a brilliantly put together BUSINESS. IMHO the problem is they are something of a victim of their own success at least in the interest of those of us that have been in the industry for a long time. Their ability to scale and pull in very large numbers of people necessarily means the experience base is going to be diluted. That’s usually an indicator in the commercial world of an opportunity for competition. When BP rolled out they were pretty much blue ocean but I have noticed the same thing you have and suspect that competition may be around the corner. My best guess is the team at BP would welcome the competition and it would in the long run serve them well. For the rest of us, we’ll just have to hang in there. For myself, I can say I do a fair amount of networking via PM but it is much harder to sift through the Loopnet from the true off-market if you catch my drift.
To me this trend reflects the stage of the economy and investing cycle we are in. The status of the investor has now become a commodity.
Let me state 2 examples.
My 19 yo nephew is looking to raise 75k to invest OOS RE. He says most of his friends are doing it or talking about it. He wants to get in on the action. He came to me for help. I told him I did not have that kind of cash. He said I was not doing it right and should start pulling equity out of the few SF BA properties I own. That's how the money gets created! Cool, young boy does know his stuff.
Another example, I have a friend who is a chef at a medium sized restaurant, blue collar, hard working and come up the very hard way, and its always great to attend dinner at his place usually every 2 years. He invites his cohorts from the industry. 2 years back this group, mostly chefs, only spoke of vacations, kids, their business, families, sports. This time, they all behaved like mini Grant Cardone's and Robert Kiyosaki's.
All of them without exception were taking some credit for the appreciation of their primary homes in California and all of them had taken out equity to buy OOS to 'set them up for life'. I bet one of them is very good at it but all of them??
I question that.
Talks of OOS investing are every where. In cafes, parties, gyms etc. To me this is a red flag signaling higher and higher leverage on primary assets, over investment and soon some major investor burn-outs. Scary to me.
So the real investors are being crowded out and pushed into the background. They will only be seen when things normalize.
Originally posted by @Jessica G.:
I keep seeing posts that indirectly express annoyance at all of the recent new people joining. It’s somewhat insulting actually, and I’m sorry if that wasn’t the intentIon behind the underlying tone of your post, but yours is the lucky winner that I’ve decided to comment on ;) No biggie, hope you find what you’re looking for!
Anyway, I’ll let the real investors get back to it!
I can only speak for myself here. I joined this website 4.5 years ago as one of the annoying newbies asking repetitive questions. Here I am now and I own 10 units and over $1 million in real estate in 5 properties.
While I am by no means one of the experts, I readily admit that the information I got from the forums is what got me to this point. That is why I still contribute to these forums. I want to see other newbies make progress and reach success.
Originally posted by @Matt K.:
Originally posted by @Anthony Gayden:
Originally posted by @Steve S.:
BiggerPockets for a long time was a great place where investors could meet and exchange information and work together. Over the past year I have noticed a trend of a lot more newbies coming in just looking for information and a lot less real players who truly invest and work together.
SO... I have two questions....
1) Has anyone else noticed this trend?
2) Where are the real real estate investors conversing if not on this forum?
Trying to figure out where everyone went.
-Steve
The problem is defining who the “real” investors are.
How do you define it? Net worth? Properties owned? Years of experience?
A doctor who owns a 24 unit apartment complex valued at $1.5 million. That is his only deal and he bought it turn key and out of state. Compare that to a mom and pop investor who owns 6 properties which he bought and rehabbed individually, he self manages and has been investing for 10 years, but the value of his properties is less than $1 million. Who is the more experienced investor?
Let's go by votes, if you're not over 1k votes you obviously aren't real....
(hopefully my sarcasm comes through loud and clear....)
I'm not a real boy.... (queue the sad face and Pinocchio nose)
- Real Estate Broker
- Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH
- 19,007
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- 27,938
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The website promotes real estate education for those who are looking to learn. What that is going to do is attract two types of people.
1. People who are looking to learn about real estate.
2. People who already know about real estate and want a platform to present their knowledge.
There are more people in the 1st category than the second. That's just a fact. Has nothing to do with bigger pockets, just a fact of life. Most other industries are the exact same way. Bigger pockets has gone through some pretty rapid member growth over the last couple years, so naturally the more the member count grows the larger the gap between group 1 & 2 grows.
I never had a formal or even informal education in finance/investing. BP truly has been been the resource to give me a foundation to get started in that. I know Ive asked some dumb questions, but veteran members have truly helped me out. Because of BP, I feel more comfortable having my one and only rental. As I become more comfortable with that one, I'd like to pick up a few more. Literally REI is all new to me, so while I agree sometimes it gets extra frustrating seeing "really new" members post threads that easily can be searched with a million results, I dont mind sifting through.
I guess my only constructive criticism is to maybe switch up the layout of the forum a bit so its easier to put threads into categories (who knows, maybe they would even put a "real players" section) . @Scott Trench@Mindy Jensen@Joshua Dorkin Check out blowoutcard forums for what I think is a pretty user friendly forum. Not sure how much traffic you have if having that many categories is worth it, but give it a look. As you get bigger, might be worth changing the layout to make it easier to navigate for whatever it is you are looking for.
Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
this site is heavy to buy and hold cash flow in king appreciation is gambling so any market that provides a modicum of cash flow with 20% down is a ripe target for the vast majority of the BP audience . there have not been many lately but some of the most spirited threads are the SF bay area investors who have made a KILLING in appreciation debating with those that think 200 .oo a month and no appreciation to speak of is the way to go.. :) Obviously there are far more people with 50k in their jeans to buy low end rentals than 250k to buy a rental in the SF peninsula.. but there is no arguing if you bought a rental in SF peninsula 5 years ago you made WAAAAY more money than any cash flow investment.. but now that seems to have peaked.. and I see another huge run to cash flow My only suggestion to those buying in those markets is to get them paid for as soon as possible and if you can pay cash.. that's where you make money in low value assets.. IE any asset under 100k.. is what I consider a low value asset.
I'm far from the higher spectrum regarding the topic of this thread, but its comments like what you've made here (and a few other nuggets I gleaned from things you've written in other posts) have become watershed moments of inspiration. And, more importantly, they've helped me fine tune my strategy. Us lower end guys are paying attention to guys like you who drop in comments that are invaluable - which are based on a wealth of experience. Thanks!
Oh, and by the way - if you "real investors" go and start your own private version of BP (as a couple of people have posted) then the rest of us lose out.
I have found that the bigger players don't usually have time, nor do they take the time, to write here or to attend local REIA meetings. I stopped going to REIA meetings for years because they were too basic and I didn't have time.
But I answer here because I enjoy coaching and writing. I agree that I have found the same thing, those who are the busiest and truly active are working the business and not looking for information.
Originally posted by @Karen Rittenhouse:
I have found that the bigger players don't usually have time, nor do they take the time, to write here or to attend local REIA meetings. I stopped going to REIA meetings for years because they were too basic and I didn't have time.
But I answer here because I enjoy coaching and writing. I agree that I have found the same thing, those who are the busiest and truly active are working the business and not looking for information.
Great response. If they are real investors, then they are out trying to manage their investments and their time.
I am a long, long way from being successful but heck, even I am finding it harder to find new and actionable knowledge at various meet-ups around town. A lot of it is so geared for new people that don't know the terminology or the concepts even.
But think about this -- if you have done a deal or two, and you already know something about it, and you need to get more info, specific info, answers to questions, then probably you also know where to go, whom to contact, to find those answers. You call up a contact, you ask another local investor what they do, what service they use for this or that... And so the search for answers starts to shift from general to narrow in scope.
And I get that the meet ups should be about networking, but I would say that I meet more serious Houston investors here on BP than I run into at any meet up. Oh sure there are some exceptions, and if I am honest with myself, maybe I am just not good at networking at those events... working to get better in that area.
@Mark Sewell You must run into a lot of HomeVestors franchisees in Houston. That's our number 1 city!
My HM lender is one of them, and I know a couple other, yes.
Didn't HV start up in Dallas? I would guess Houston was the first city they expanded to when they were just getting started, being just a few hours down the road.
A couple thoughts on this topic.
1. I think the number of members on the forum is contributing to the variety in quality. Many more newbies so the ratio is gone. A few years ago, people had less cash on hand, so the idea of risking it was rarer so there were more die-hards.
2. After a certain amount of forum reading and contributing, their is a point of diminishing returns for members unless they use BP in a methodical way. It's like reading books on real estate. Eventually you aren't going to learn much more by reading books that will be applicable to your investment career. At some point you just need to dive in and learn from experience.
3. I think a VIP section is a bad idea. It's a turnoff for those who aren't in it and a possible disappointment for those who make it. I think lessons can be learned from anyone despite their VIP status. Why limit conversations to those whom you "think" might know the answers.
Most investors have small pockets of friendships that they either develop because they are like minded or because they do business together. It's not like there are big secret societies of these highly advanced investors in local markets. It's usually a few guys/girls that have been successful in repeating their process , continually bump into the same people and then develop relationships with them.
- Ian Walsh