Cash Flow vs. Cap Rate

Cash Flow vs. Cap Rate

Investor · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 7 votes

Can anyone explain to my why it's so important to worry about cash flow or cash on cash ROI when you have a property with an excellent cap rate? Why should the initial returns matter so much to buy and hold investors?

Here's my concern:

If I put 10,000 into a mutual fund this month and $50 each month after that (total of $9k), in 15 years I would have about $34,000. No one I know would consider this a "bad idea." (Though, there are certainly better ways to invest your money.)

However, if I put $10k down on a $180,000 multifamily property that has even a -$5 monthly cash flow due to a 15 year fixed rate loan, the consensus on this site seems to be it's a "bad deal."

Now I agree that it's not a perfect deal, but if I can secure it with low money down and seller financing, I feel like it would be excellent to spend a couple bucks out of my own pocket each month (if I even have to, since I run my numbers so conservatively) to have a multifamily property that is entirely paid off in 15 years. The cash flow after that point would be great and the whole property (minus a few repairs) is paid for by tenants.

I have a day job that I enjoy and I have other cash flowing properties already that more than make up for one that doesn't. We're not trying to retire tomorrow.. but would maybe consider it 15 years from now.

Bonus Question:

If I were to get a 15 year loan and plan to use an exit strategy of refinancing for a 30 year at some point, what kind of deals are available to refinance? I assume I'll need equity of least 20-25%. My typical lender sent over these refinancing requirements, and I'm not sure they are typical:

1.You must have 6 months in reserves for the subject property and an additional 2 months reserves for every other property you own.

2.You can have a total of 6 properties financed.

3.On a refinance the loan-to-value must be below 75%.

4.There is a minimum loan amount of $50,000.

Let me know if I'm way off base or seem to be missing something.

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  • Specialist · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Megan Silver:

    Can anyone explain to my why it's so important to worry about cash flow or cash on cash ROI when you have a property with an excellent cap rate? Why should the initial returns matter so much to buy and hold investors?

    Here's my concern:

    If I put 10,000 into a mutual fund this month and $50 each month after that (total of $9k), in 15 years I would have about $34,000. No one I know would consider this a "bad idea." (Though, there are certainly better ways to invest your money.)

    However, if I put $10k down on a $180,000 multifamily property that has even a -$5 monthly cash flow due to a 15 year fixed rate loan, the consensus on this site seems to be it's a "bad deal."

    Now I agree that it's not a perfect deal, but if I can secure it with low money down and seller financing, I feel like it would be excellent to spend a couple bucks out of my own pocket each month (if I even have to, since I run my numbers so conservatively) to have a multifamily property that is entirely paid off in 15 years. The cash flow after that point would be great and the whole property (minus a few repairs) is paid for by tenants.

    I have a day job that I enjoy and I have other cash flowing properties already that more than make up for one that doesn't. We're not trying to retire tomorrow.. but would maybe consider it 15 years from now.

    Bonus Question:

    If I were to get a 15 year loan and plan to use an exit strategy of refinancing for a 30 year at some point, what kind of deals are available to refinance? I assume I'll need equity of least 20-25%. My typical lender sent over these refinancing requirements, and I'm not sure they are typical:

    1.You must have 6 months in reserves for the subject property and an additional 2 months reserves for every other property you own.

    2.You can have a total of 6 properties financed.

    3.On a refinance the loan-to-value must be below 75%.

    4.There is a minimum loan amount of $50,000.

    Let me know if I'm way off base or seem to be missing something.

     I haven't run into a house yet that over time didn't require a new roof, water heater, AC Unit, have vacancies, etc, etc. All of these cost big money and with a cash flow of even a $100 a month, having "one month's vacancy" blows the year's cash flow. So, a -$5 cash flow isn't of interest at all to me. I don't buy the company line that appreciation will someday make up for it all. Sometimes it is a true statement that appreciation works, but sometimes it doesn't. 

    Plus with all of the unfunded pensions  (think teachers, firemen, policemen, city, county, state workers) those deficits need to be funded and that means taxes will be going up and generally that means property taxes. I choose to buy using Subject To, and I am generally into a property for about 3% of the value of the property by taking over the loan. So, I don't really encounter the problems you list. My least performing properties cash flow about $500 per month and I have others that cash flow about $1000 a month and everything in between. I can dump them easily enough if the market turns unfavorable.

  • Investor · Tallahassee, FL · Member since 2017 · 18 posts · 7 votes
    8y

    Aren't the $200* per month for cap ex and 10% I take out for repairs sufficient to cover those expenses? I've built in 8% for vacancy (just in case, though that seems high for the area - lots of long term tenants), 10% for property management (in case I choose to use it), 1% of the value of the property for taxes annually, and insurance rates based on quotes I've received. There are no HOA expenses with this property but I would have included those too. Only after all of those things does the property negatively cash flow. Technically on a normal month I'd be bringing in a few hundred dollars more than my expenses, but with all of the typical expenses, there isn't too much left. If I can be sure I've covered all of that, I'm happy even if I'm not technically making a cash profit because any money I take in during 12 months of no big fixes will be wiped out eventually.

    *The cap ex is only so low because there is no garage, fireplace, pool, washer, dryer, garbage disposal, the windows are small and single pane, only one door per unit, no real landscaping to upkeep, they are entirely brick,  and there’s a metal roof.

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