Dealing with questionable ethics among real estate agents

Dealing with questionable ethics among real estate agents

Investor · Washington, IN · Member since 2016 · 9 posts · 4 votes

Hey guys!  We have a question that we are having a hard time coming to terms with.  The problem is that we live and invest in a small rural community.  Every time we have offered on a house we hear that the seller magically has multiple offers.  Our first rental property was on the market for two years as a bank foreclosure.  It had gone to auction multiple times and had never sold.  A local realtor then listed it for the bank and did a price reduction. It sat on the market for another two weeks before we placed an offer for the complete asking price.  Later that day we were informed that there were multiple offers and that we needed to give them our best and highest offer.  So we offered more.  We also questioned the ethics behind the sudden multiple offers and eventually won that round.  We have since offered on 5 or 6 other properties that are priced right, only to get the same story.  Suddenly multiple people are interested in the exact same property that has sat for months on the market.  

So we just put another offer on a house last Thursday.  The seller countered but was still a little high so we countered her counter.  We learned on Saturday that the seller did not know where she was going to live after the sale so we told our realtor to let her know we would just let her rent the place until she found other accommodations.  Sounds like everything is going to work in our favor right?  No.  The listing agent asked for an extension of the offer until 5pm on Monday.  We agreed and found out this afternoon that we had lost the offer.  Because this is a small town we pushed for more information and found that the listing agent had brought another buyer to the table that was willing to pay the listing price.  We suspect that this buyer will be another investor in the area that works with the listing agent.  The questions that we have are: Is this unethical behavior that should be addressed?  Is this just small town "politics" at play?  How do we win in this climate? 

Any expertise is welcome!  We're tired of losing out to these guys.  Our goal is to have 5 rentals purchased, turned and rented by the end of the year...

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
9y

Zero things here sound unethical. Someone was willing to pay a higher price for this property than you were. This is the exactly what the listing agent is supposed to do. It is they very opposite of unethical.

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  • Residential Real Estate Broker · North Aurora, IL · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    One trick that is used often is to make sure the sellers sign off on each offer to show that they actually saw it.  The listing agent might not even be presenting your counter offers knowing they can get a higher price with another investor.  Unfortunately the listing agent is for the sellers best interest and if they are getting a higher price, they are doing a good job (in the eyes of the seller).  Best of luck to you!  It took me almost 1.5 years with many lost offers to finally get my first rental property (closing June 1st) and I couldn't be happier.  Be patient and your time will come

  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Sounds like the listing agent was doing her job and getting top dollar for her seller. How do you win? Don't submit an offer lower than a competing offer....

    On the previous deals you lost out on - did they go under contract and sell shortly after your "bidding war"? If so, pretty good indication that the "other" offers were real.

    I've lost out on more deals than I can count. One thing I have learned from that happening is that there's always a better deal right around the corner.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    Zero things here sound unethical. Someone was willing to pay a higher price for this property than you were. This is the exactly what the listing agent is supposed to do. It is they very opposite of unethical.

  • Real Estate Broker · Santa Rosa Beach, FL · Member since 2009 · 44 posts · 21 votes
    9y
    That's one example of why you should use a buyers agent. Only if represented are you protected from something like this for the buyers agent can file a claim and the board can do the research. It sounds like the listing agent brought the buyer and made both sides. I don't know of a state where the buyers pay their agent. The agent can do all the dirty work for you and they work for you for free.
  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Daniel Walker Nothing unethical about the list agent bringing a buyer. If she's feeding her buyer the exact number they need to offer and it's a penny less than the list price OR she divulges the other buyer's offer terms there may be a problem but there are ways to skirt both of those issues that would be mighty tough to prove if anyone wanted to pursue it. Regardless, I don't see how having a buyer's agent would help at all in this situation. 

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Ryan Murdock:

    @Daniel Walker Nothing unethical about the list agent bringing a buyer. If she's feeding her buyer the exact number they need to offer and it's a penny less than the list price OR she divulges the other buyer's offer terms there may be a problem but there are ways to skirt both of those issues that would be mighty tough to prove if anyone wanted to pursue it. Regardless, I don't see how having a buyer's agent would help at all in this situation. 

     I've served on my boards ethics committee, and there is great debate about whether you can divulge the price of other offers.  I do not believe any ethics panel would find you in violation of the law nor the code of ethics for doing so if the end result is getting your seller a higher price. While some on the board would have issue, if you are acting in the best interest of your client they have little choice in ruling against you.

  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Russell Brazil Interesting. I've always personally felt that you should be able to disclose the terms of other offers if it helps your seller. As you mentioned, not everyone feels that way and I thought there was something that prevented us from doing it. I may have to dig a little deeper on the rules pertaining to that here in my state.

  • Real Estate Investor · Painesville, OH · Member since 2017 · 29 posts · 15 votes
    9y

    Having been thru this myself I understand the frustration.  I am not going to debate someone about the legal aspect of this issue, because there are a lot of people on this site that know a heck of a lot more about the legal aspects of real estate than myself. I am simply offering a slightly different perspective. If I know something to not be true and I speak of it as if it were, so that i could get a desired result (my desired result), that to me is misleading and an outright lie, regardless of the legal aspects it should be considered at best ethically questionable ( provided they were not getting multiple offers of course.)  Just my opinion. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Milford, NE · Member since 2011 · 201 posts · 140 votes
    9y

    You can always face the realtor with your questions and see what they say......If you still think that they are messing you around, you can go to the state bar. But it sounds to me like they are doing exactly what they are supposed to do and are expected to do. Be careful not to drag a good realtors name through the mud because you are hurt about getting outbid.....it happens all the time. I make lots of offers and not many get accepted........but I'm satisfied with my outcome, because when I do win one, its a great deal for me. 

         I am not a realtor, but I use that tactic every time I get less than full price offers.  I let it be known that I've had many very interested buyers and a full price  offer may be a good idea,( I price my homes below market to get em gone quick) to make sure that the deal gets locked up   It works well and gets to the real numbers quickly.  It works the greed glands on buyers.  

        Just the way I do it. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Santa Rosa Beach, FL · Member since 2009 · 44 posts · 21 votes
    9y

    Ryan,  if she asked you to wait 5 days than that agent knew other offers were expected.   The right thing for you and the seller would be for the agent to announce a highest and best.   A buyers agent would not have allowed 5 days without doing some extra info gathering as to why they needed so much time.   Once they counter, the buyer has control for 24 hours unless indicated elsewhere on the counter. 

    Many investors are under the impression they can save money by going directly to the listing agent.   I felt the same when I was only investing, before I had my real estate license.   The fact is if the listing agent can drop their commissions for representing  two parties, they can do it for representing one side too.  The buyers agent, if they're looking out for your best interest should come down too.  Meaning if an agent will come down to 4% if she works both sides, then both buyer and sellers agent should come down to 2% each. Especially if you found the property and brought it to the buyers agebt.  To top it off, there is no way you'll get full disclosure working with the listing agent as a buyer.  The listing agent represents the sellers best interest. If they switch to transaction broker, they're still representing the transaction, not the persons.   

    I firmly believe if youre in a state where the seller pays all commissions, you're hurting yourself not using a buyers agent.

  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Daniel Walker We're clearly talking about state specific details now. The "buyer has control for 24 hours unless indicated on the counter" must be a FL thing? That's not the case in my state.

    Also, we have "disclosed dual" agents who can represent both the buyer and the seller equally - it doesn't have to be one or the other or a transaction broker (although it can be those too). You can often get more and better quality info with a disclosed dual agent than you can with your own buyer's agent. Depends on the situation.

    As for a buyer's agent who "would not have allowed 5 days" he may not have had a choice. The seller calls the shots there as sensible or crazy as they may be.  Banks do it all the time in the form of "no offers will be reviewed or responded to for the first xx days of the listing...".

    Additionally, no seller is under any obligation to call for highest and best or respond to any offers for any reason. As a buyer if you are not bringing your highest and best with your initial offer nothing guarantees you will get another chance to do that. That's just the way it goes. Nothing unethical about it.

    I'm not saying buyer's agents have no use - they do. And maybe the result would have been different here if one was involved. Tough to tell without knowing all the nitty gritty details.

    Regardless, these different perspectives are great and part of what makes BP such a valuable resource.

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    "Price Escalation Clause"

  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    If I were representing you as your buyer's agent, I would contact the seller's agent before presenting your offer to ask what time they would be able to present it to the seller.

    I'd then submit the offer close to that time and give the seller a 3 hour deadline.  

    "This offer expires at 3:00 PM on <today's date>".

    A really sharp seller's agent will ignore that deadline, but it's worth a try.

    The other thing to consider is an escalation clause in your offer.  

    "The buyer will increase the amount of this offer to exceed any other bonafide offer to a maximum of $XXX,XXX.00.  A copy of the competing offer and proof of funds must be presented for verification.  The offeror's surname may be blacked out for privacy purposes."

    When it comes to "final and best", don't be afraid to stick to your guns.  Just because you are asked to present your best offer doesn't mean that you have to increase it.  If you've already made a strong offer, there's nothing wrong with sticking to it.  Don't get sucked into a bidding frenzy.  

    As others have already stated, it's best to remember that the seller's agent is NOT on your side.  He or she is required both by ethics and state law to get the best possible offer for the seller.  That's why using a buyer's agent can be a very good idea. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    looks like @Max T.  beat me to the escalator clause but this is what you need to do in these situations.

    Also give a short window for acceptance.. if your at your top dollar.. give them 24 hours... and don't budge.... that works sometimes.

    in the buyers markets.. I would get offers on my properties at 10 am and it expired at 1pm same day take it or leave it.. :) 

    now your in sellers market and its flip flopped..

    I suspect in your small town escalator clauses may not be known... I just used one in Charleston SC and beat out 3 other builders as I was the only one with an Escaltor clause.. so it only cost me 1k more than highest and best and we won the deal.. not to mention our CASH POF and close as soon as title was ready with no contingencies.

    I see folks post all the time wonder why their higher offer was not accepted .. well lots of things.. cash  /  DD time  closing time all this factors into these deals.

  • Investor · Fallbrook, CA · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    In my experience too many real estate agents only care for their commissions. They are very unethical. Some listing agents will do anything they can, including something illegal to make a double commission . I only use the listing agent to represent me as a buyers agent, and the agent makes sure my offer gets accepted. 

    If this is not a good strategy, please tell me why?

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Mark N.  total generalization of the real estate brokerage community and totally off base 

    @Russell Brazil 

    does not hurt to use listing agent... some brokerages though will not allow listing agents to double end the deals as there are dual agency issues.

    what ever works for you.. but don't throw all agents under the bus like they are some kind of low life whoesalers.. who have no ethics and or any license or anything else to govern themselves other than the mirror.

  • Involved In Real Estate · San Ramon, CA · Member since 2015 · 30 posts · 25 votes
    9y
    This stuff happens all the time in my market. I'm an agent myself, but one way to get an offer accepted is to have the listing agent represent you. I'd rather give up my commission than to overpay for a house. Listing Agents in my market are trying to double end every deal, so buyers are now trained to go to the listing agent directly and avoid this "multiple offers coming out of nowhere" mystery.
  • Investor · Massillon, OH · Member since 2015 · 266 posts · 156 votes
    9y

    I think if they are acting in the sellers best interest they won't tell the other buyer what the other bid was. They should let all bidders know that there are multiple offers and they need to give their highest and best. Ie I may be willing to pay 150,000 for a property listed at 140,000. But i offer 125,000. Someone else offers 100,000, if I know that I'll stand on my offer. If i just know there's multiple offers,  I'm bidding the 150,000. 

  • Investor · Fallbrook, CA · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    Hello Jay,

    I know all agents are not unethical, but too many are extremely unethical. I hope you can agree with that.

    My experience shows, using the listing agent to buy that property will increase your chances of getting that property 10 fold in a sellers market. It's worked for me, and it's worked for friends and family who use this tactic. 

    Money talks.

  • Rental Property Investor · Klamath Falls, OR · Member since 2016 · 146 posts · 213 votes
    9y

    In my experience you establish a good relationship with an agent and they will do their best to get your offer accepted. Mine will call the listing agent to find out how many offers are on the table or expected and pass that along. He also asks good questions of the selling agent and can typically tell me if people are getting worked up about a property and are likely to offer asking or higher.

    We're closing on a foreclosed 4-plex in a couple of weeks and based on our numbers we went $10,000 over what we thought others were asking just to get our hands on it. This action was taken based on the advice of our realtor. He can't tell us what to offer and realtors shouldn't be held responsible if a person loses a property to a higher bid. Just get a realtor who will give the best advice they can. I would say that relationships and self control are they keys to winning bidding wars.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Mark N.  I agree with you that humans are humans and human nature will take over..

    going with listing agent is fine.. nothing wrong with it.. I have done it many many times.

    or like in our new construction.. any agent that brings me the lot its understood they are getting the list back.. If they are not I am up front about it.

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    9y

    On my personal residence , It was listed for 3 months . I made an offer . I was told 3 days later they had other offers and to give my highest and best .  So I submitted a new offer $ 25,000 less than my first offer .   Funny how the seller agreed to my first offer . 

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