Buyers lender wants our HUD

Buyers lender wants our HUD

Maplewood, NJ · Member since 2016 · 27 posts · 10 votes

My wife and I are under contract on a flip we purchased last summer. The buyer's lender, Wells, wants the HUD from when we purchased the property. Our lawyer has been pushing back as there doesn't appear to be any legal reason given for doing this. The only explanation we've received is as follows:

"The justification for needing this document is we need an acceptable document that confirms purchase price paid by the sellers for the subject. We need to verify this is truly a flip transaction and all those documents once reviewed by our quality review department will indicate if the property is truly a flip and how we proceed. If all of the documents are not provided, we will not be able to approve the property and the transaction cannot continue." 

We're not trying to derail our own transaction, but is the case of a lender run amok with random paperwork requirements based on nothing more than a checklist? Has anyone else ever had this requirement forced on them, and if so, what did you do? Why wouldn't they just use the tax records?

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Chris MasonPro Member
Moderator
Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
9y

Hi @Brian Dalton,

Your lawyer is right, there is no "legal reason given for doing this."

And there is also no "legal reason" why the lender must approve this loan. 

There are overlays, or there could be something causing the human underwriter to question the transaction, the value of the collateral, etc. Anti-flip overlays are actually very common, especially for jumbo loan amounts, but also retail banks.

The ambiguity associated with "once reviewed by our quality review department will indicate if the property is truly a flip and how we proceed" & the fact that it could simply trigger a "loan denied" for reasons unclear to you is always the price paid for accepting an offer from a buyer using a big bank.

You can try starting over with a new buyer or a new lender, if you like. The timing implications of this are exactly what they sound like -- starting over. And then whatever set this lender & underwriter off, could set that one off too.

Your purchase price is not a secret. Lenders and agents can pull property profiles in about 5 seconds. Is there a reason you don't want to share the settlement paperwork from your purchase?

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  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Is their loan government backed (FHA/USDA/VA)?

  • Maplewood, NJ · Member since 2016 · 27 posts · 10 votes
    9y

    @Mike Cumbie no, it's not. They're a 20% down buyer, which makes it just strange.  

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Brian Dalton,

    Your lawyer is right, there is no "legal reason given for doing this."

    And there is also no "legal reason" why the lender must approve this loan. 

    There are overlays, or there could be something causing the human underwriter to question the transaction, the value of the collateral, etc. Anti-flip overlays are actually very common, especially for jumbo loan amounts, but also retail banks.

    The ambiguity associated with "once reviewed by our quality review department will indicate if the property is truly a flip and how we proceed" & the fact that it could simply trigger a "loan denied" for reasons unclear to you is always the price paid for accepting an offer from a buyer using a big bank.

    You can try starting over with a new buyer or a new lender, if you like. The timing implications of this are exactly what they sound like -- starting over. And then whatever set this lender & underwriter off, could set that one off too.

    Your purchase price is not a secret. Lenders and agents can pull property profiles in about 5 seconds. Is there a reason you don't want to share the settlement paperwork from your purchase?

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    This does not bode well for you @Brian Dalton:

    If the borrower is particularly strong, they may be willing to do a one-off exception. The term "flip" is not clearly defined in WF guidelines that I can tell, which makes it subjective and unreliable (Are they using the FHA definition? The gut feeling of the underwriter? The weather outside?).

    I would not have sent this transaction to WF.

  • Mike CumbieBusiness Member
    REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

     I was going to ping Chris to chime in here. Maybe see if the buyer will use a different bank and give them time to switch. 

  • Zack KarpPro Member
    Lender · Schaumburg, IL · Member since 2015 · 833 posts · 774 votes
    9y

    Big Banks = more overlays (varies by bank)

    Their concern is stock price and appeasing stockholders, and because of that, their guidelines are more selective because they are trying harder to limit their default probability. They do not underwrite directly to the Fannie/Freddie/FHA/VA/USDA guidelines, they impose overlays on top of the guidelines.

    As a seller, especially flippers where time is money, you should have a preferred lender that you refer to your buyers upfront.  You can't make the buyer use your lender, but you should educate yourself to explain to them the potential issue of flips and other overlays, and to make sure that either you or the buyer vet their lender and their guidelines/knowledge before going down that road and wasting weeks or months.  Time is money!

  • Maplewood, NJ · Member since 2016 · 27 posts · 10 votes
    9y

    @Mike Cumbie, @Chris Mason, and @Zack Karp, apologies for the very late follow up, but we did eventually have to provide Wells with the HUD from when we purchased the property. We provided them a heavily redacted version and they seemed to take it. My wife who has a background in banking, called Wells and asked tons of questions. Neither the requester nor her supervisor could give a straight answer. We just moved on, figuring it was based on a random checklist item. The property closed two weeks ago and we cleared a decent profit. Thank you all for opining.

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