Do you have a system for investing out of state?

Do you have a system for investing out of state?

New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 125 posts · 48 votes

I'm looking to purchase rental property to buy & hold for positive cash flow.

Unfortunately I'm located in New York City, where anything remotely close here is far out of my budget, and regardless, this is not a landlord friendly location.

Specifically, I'm looking for MFHs (mostly duplexes) for around $40-$55k, which need minor, mostly cosmetic work, and can be rented for around $500-$700 per side.  The closest that I can find properties like this seems to be the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area of Pennsylvania, which is about a 2 to 2.5 hour drive, which isn't terrible, but certainly not a commute I'd be making a regular basis.  I haven't ruled out other areas of the country as well (namely the south or midwest), but that would likely mean a plane ticket and hotel instead of a day car trip.

For those of you that invest even further away, what's your process like?  How many times do you physically view the home prior to purchase, if at all?  I've read about a few people that arrange for Skype walk-throughs of the properties and never even visit them in person.

How do you get a feel for the neighborhood?  I'd also be open to the greater Philadelphia area, and a quick search on realtor.com shows plenty of properties in this price range, but for all I know they're in places that the police are afraid to visit.

I'm guessing at least two in person visits would be necessary, one to view the property in person to make sure the photos are an accurate representation of the place, and then another for the closing process.  Although with things like conference calls and Skype sessions, perhaps that can be cut down to one visit, or even none at all.

Of course a thorough home inspection would be very important in a deal like this.

I'll be using a PM company once the home is purchased, so hopefully I'll be as hands off as possible. 

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Eric FernwoodBusiness Member
Realtor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2014 · 993 posts · 1k+ votes
11y

Hello @Tyler Brown,

You asked an excellent question but not one with a simple answer. I will tell you the process I would follow and some of the concerns I would have.

So we are on the same page, I believe all investment properties must meet three criteria:

• Sustained profitability - The property must generate a positive cash flow today and into the foreseeable future (10+ years).

• Likely to appreciate over time - You would never buy a property just for appreciation but appreciation is very desirable. And, rents usually rise along with appreciation because appreciation is the result of increased demand.

• Investor friendly state/county/city regulations - Evictions, rent control, code compliance requirements, etc. This is a critical factor. In some states it can take more than a year and cost thousands to evict a non-paying tenant while your mortgage payments and costs continue. Few investors could handle such a loss. If you think eviction regulations and landlord rights are not critical, you have not seen the movie Pacific Heights.

While it is relatively easy to satisfy one or two of the above criteria today you need to satisfy all three for the foreseeable future (10+ years). Too many new investors only consider how the property will perform today using metrics like ROI. However, ROI tells you nothing about how the property is likely to perform in the future.

The overall process I would follow to meet all three criteria is illustrated below.

Below is a description of each level.

Metro Level Considerations

I would only consider metro areas with:

• Reasonable access (flight/drive) from where you live. Sooner or later you will want (or need to) inspect your properties.

• A city where you would like to spend time. One of the many advantages of investment real estate is that travel expenses to inspect your properties are deductible. I live in Las Vegas and many of my clients (especially the ones in Canada) "inspect" their properties between January and March.

• A population exceeding 1M will have sufficient historical data so you can evaluate trends. Also, larger cities have more stability than smaller cities because they tend not to be a one-employer economy.

• Financially stable - Cities that are in bankruptcy or near bankruptcy are not good places to invest. If you look at inflation adjusted $/SqFt prices in such cities you will find that property prices have fallen as well as rents. And, they are likely to continue to fall because the business environment that caused the fall is not likely to change. For more information see, "Investing in Declining Markets" on my profile page.

• Metro areas which do not experience hard freezes or significant moisture. Ongoing maintenance costs are significantly higher in areas with hard freezes and moisture.

• No or limited urban sprawl - In every metro area I've seen there are areas that were once prime areas and over time become distressed areas. The reason is that people with money will tend to move to newer areas with newer floor plans, etc. You do not want to buy in areas that are trending down.

• Stable or increasing job quantity and quality - The value of a property is no better than the jobs around it. In many parts of the US, manufacturing and similar jobs are going away and what remains are service sector jobs. Service sector jobs tend to pay much less than manufacturing jobs so the families of these workers have less disposable income. Less disposable income means that they cannot afford to pay the level of rent they did in the past so property prices and rental rates fall.

Location Level Considerations

If you selected a number of potential metro areas and filtered them through the metro level considerations you will likely have a relatively small number of potential metro areas to consider. Now you need to focus deeper into each one remaining. To do this you need detailed location level information. Where can you get such information? Local property managers. Every day property managers deal with marketing properties, maintenance, tenants issues, rehab, local regulations, finding and screening tenants and many other rental property related issues. Local property managers know what works and what will not work. Google the name of the city plus the words "property management" and you should get a number of hits. Go through the web sites and look for a mid sized property manager. Select 3 or 4 and call them. The minimum you need to know is:

• Where - Specific location within the metro area that rents the best.

• Type - Condo, multi-family, single family, etc.

• Configuration - Singe story, two story, number of bedrooms, etc.

• Rent range - If the most desirable tenant pool can only afford to pay between $800/Mo. and $1,000/Mo. you should only be looking at properties that you can purchase, rehab and profitably rent within that rent range.

• Regulations - The most important will be the time and cost to evict.

• Typical rehab costs and issues to avoid.

• Typical time a tenant stays in such properties and typical turn costs.

Have a list of well formed questions before you call and take notes. (I created a list of property manager interview questions. If anyone would like a copy, send me an email.) If you hear the same information from multiple property managers, then it is probably true. When you finish your property manager interviews you should have a reasonable guess to the answers to each of the following:

• Where

• Type

• Configuration

• Rent range

• Regulations (like eviction cost)

• Typical rehab costs

• Typical time a tenant stays

• Typical turn cost

• Insurance cost

• Property tax rate

• Probable property manager you would like to work with

• Probable ongoing maintenance costs

• Probable recurring costs

• Purchase price range - When you know where, type and configuration, you can easily determine the sales price range using Zillow or a similar site.

Time to dig deeper.

Detailed Location Investigation Considerations

With the property profile you created during Location Level Considerations, you should know what you want. The next step is to contact a local Realtor. Provide them with your selection criteria (where, type, configuration and purchase price range). They will send you conforming properties and you can do further analysis. If everything still looks good it's time to go see the location yourself and start to assemble your investment team.

Your Investment Team

It is imperative that you have a trusted local team. At the minimum you need a (good) property manager and a Realtor. For more details on the investment team check out this BP post.

Tyler, my response ended up being much longer than I originally intended. However, you asked an excellent question and I believe the answer will be of importance to many BPers.

FERNWOOD Team, KW VIP Realty520 Reviews
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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    11y

    genereally speaking those type of assets are pretty tough to manage as your dealing with the HIgh touch renter base.. IN some cities its akin to financial suicide...

    Be careful... I was just in the Penn area you described and rather liked it... would defiantly look at that compared to Urban core  in the other cash flow cities.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y

    I work with out of state investors all the time since most markets that I would consider to be out of state (not in my state), can't cash flow well or not at all.  I'm lucky.  Michigan, SE Michigan to be precise, is a cash cow.  Not expensive at all to get in and high immediate (as in not having to wait for your cash flow) returns in cash flow...not just equity.

    Now before someone starts talking about low cost properties being a problem, and talking about Detroit in a bad way, let me stop you right there with two statements:

    1 - The same house you buy in California, or N.Y., or many other markets that costs $400-450k, I can get for $40-45k.  Yes, the exact same house...maybe minus the proximity to an ocean...the Great Lakes are nice...and it's not salt water.  Same quality of life, same A or B rating, same rating on the school system, same condition of the house, same....

    2 - Michigan, is NOT in Detroit.

  • Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 755 posts · 462 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    2 - Michigan, is NOT in Detroit.

    They moved it???

  • Toronto, ONT · Member since 2014 · 64 posts · 12 votes
    11y

    I now of a person in Indiana. That specializes in mutil family and is also a PM.

    Let me know if your interested.

  • Engineer · Suwanee, GA · Member since 2013 · 127 posts · 47 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Tyler Brown:

    I'm looking to purchase rental property to buy & hold for positive cash flow.

    Unfortunately I'm located in New York City, where anything remotely close here is far out of my budget, and regardless, this is not a landlord friendly location.

    Specifically, I'm looking for MFHs (mostly duplexes) for around $40-$55k, which need minor, mostly cosmetic work, and can be rented for around $500-$700 per side.  The closest that I can find properties like this seems to be the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area of Pennsylvania, which is about a 2 to 2.5 hour drive, which isn't terrible, but certainly not a commute I'd be making a regular basis.  I haven't ruled out other areas of the country as well (namely the south or midwest), but that would likely mean a plane ticket and hotel instead of a day car trip.

    For those of you that invest even further away, what's your process like?  How many times do you physically view the home prior to purchase, if at all?  I've read about a few people that arrange for Skype walk-throughs of the properties and never even visit them in person.

    How do you get a feel for the neighborhood?  I'd also be open to the greater Philadelphia area, and a quick search on realtor.com shows plenty of properties in this price range, but for all I know they're in places that the police are afraid to visit.

    I'm guessing at least two in person visits would be necessary, one to view the property in person to make sure the photos are an accurate representation of the place, and then another for the closing process.  Although with things like conference calls and Skype sessions, perhaps that can be cut down to one visit, or even none at all.

    Of course a thorough home inspection would be very important in a deal like this.

    I'll be using a PM company once the home is purchased, so hopefully I'll be as hands off as possible. 

    Go all in....  I moved my family specifically to SE michigan with the goal in mind  to build "my team"  so that I can be an out of state investor for the long term. 

     You being out of state investor, your always second to the local investor for the pickings, paying a premium for turnkey, or your giving up a significant amount to a partner of your investment, that you will rely on to make the decisions for you. 

    So ask yourself how serious do you really want to be in real estate investing, and what are you willing to do to to get it. Depending on that answer rather passive or aggressive, will provide with a goal on what you need to do.

  • Engineer · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2012 · 75 posts · 14 votes
    11y

    @Tyler Brown Plenty of NYC investors make a killing in Philly. My advice would be come down for a day and set up meetings with about 5-10 RE agents that seem credible after some online digging and BP mingling. Have them take you thru areas that they would recommend and places they'd suggest you invest in. Keep your budget in a range that wont absolutely kill you if it all goes south, read philly real estate blogs and then buy some property and find out for yourself. Anything in NYC is about 10x's a comparable property in philly so your playing a relatively small game when you come down to philly, take some risks and make a bunch of $$$.

  • Real Estate Broker · Temecula, CA · Member since 2014 · 992 posts · 782 votes
    11y

    I do a lot of research online regarding housing prices, crime statistics, employment rates, cash flow rates, for certain areas.  I make sure to base decisions mostly on cash flow, not appreciation, so I was able to go thru the downturn in the economy unscathed. 

    After Everything looks good for a certain area, I do go out and visit, speak with several agents, property managers, see homes and discuss that area in detail.

    I opted against one area, which had looked great, because the property manager states that they needed to remove the entire AC unit from each home when vacant or they would be stolen. (Cages around them didn't suffice)  I've invested in a lot of areas, but this was a bit much, the crime rate there deterred me.

    I have invested in Utah, Las vegas, Houston and currently Kokomo, Indiana. (strong employment, inexpensive homes, strong rental market)  I've been the happiest with the $60-$120K price range)

    After all the research is done, I may not actually see the house prior to purchase, but I have found the agent or property manager to do a thorough walk through. I also do get an inspection, no matter how small the home. 

    I hope this helps.

  • Real Estate Broker · NYC Metro Area · Member since 2015 · 58 posts · 28 votes
    11y
    What about Jersey?? Plenty of deals right across the water in JC, union city, north Bergen etc?? Mightn't be quite 50k but worth a look as its so accessible to the the city..
  • New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 125 posts · 48 votes
    11y

    @Christine Kankowski, thanks, that helps outline the process a bit.

    @Brian Whelan, I just did a quick search on realtor.com, and even with a cap of $80k, there isn't a single MFH anywhere in Bergen County.  Hudson County has 3, and they appear borded up and in need of serious work.

    Essex County, especially Newark and the surrounding towns have plenty for sale for under $60k, but man, talk about a war zone.  I'm sure there are decent patches here and there, but I don't know where they are.  The only good part of Newark that I know is the Ironbound, and there's nothing for sale there in my price range.  

    I just saw one that has blatant gang graffiti all over the exterior of the house, and that must be the best image of the place because that's the one the realtor chose to use for the ad!

  • Software Engineer · North New Jersey · Member since 2015 · 56 posts · 25 votes
    11y

    @Tyler BrownWhy 40-55k? That is the real question, maybe you need to pick up a copy or "Investing with low and no money down". MFR for 55k would mean 27.5k per door, even in Wilkes-Barre isn't that easy.

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 125 posts · 48 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Mike Zipf:

    @Tyler BrownWhy 40-55k? That is the real question, maybe you need to pick up a copy or "Investing with low and no money down". MFR for 55k would mean 27.5k per door, even in Wilkes-Barre isn't that easy.

     Why's that?  I've been searching properties and speaking to a realtor in the area.  There are quite a few properties to be had in that price range that need minimal cosmetic work, some with long term tenants in place.

    Most low/no money down methods require owner occupancy, which I won't be doing.  And still, 20% down plus closing costs is only around $15k, which is no big deal.

    If you're looking for a fixer upper and you're a handyman (which I'm not), there are a good number even under $30k.

  • Software Engineer · North New Jersey · Member since 2015 · 56 posts · 25 votes
    11y

    @Tyler Brown I have been looking into Wilkes-Barre as well because I have family there, my uncle is actually a painter in town. The problem is with the sub 55k multi-families in the area is the old housing stock and all the problems that come with them, as well as restrictive rental laws. Be careful about the allure of cheap real estate and have a good home inspector. My uncle told me that almost every pre war building he has painted in the area had asbestos wrapped pipes and decades old boilers just as one example of a large capital expenditure. I'm not saying don't do it, just that what your realtor is saying is turn key may not be, and may even be illegal to rent in its current state.

  • Rental Property Investor · Manama, Bahrain · Member since 2015 · 96 posts · 68 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Richard Dunlop:
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    2 - Michigan, is NOT in Detroit.

    They moved it???

    Detroit is in Michigan, not the other way around. I think what Joe was getting at was that Detroit is only a small subset of all of the real estate in Michigan. You don't have to avoid the entire state just because Detroit went under.

  • Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 755 posts · 462 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Steven Kleppin:
    Originally posted by @Richard Dunlop:
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:

    2 - Michigan, is NOT in Detroit.

    They moved it???

    Detroit is in Michigan, not the other way around. I think what Joe was getting at was that Detroit is only a small subset of all of the real estate in Michigan. You don't have to avoid the entire state just because Detroit went under.

    Here is a screen shot from the post above!

    Please note where I live and invest.  It amuses both @Joe Villeneuve and me that people confuse Detroit and Michigan and that people think we live in a 3rd world country.

    Metro Detroit has problems? Yes but it also has single family homes that would sell for $10,000,000.00 in today's down market.

    Detroit itself is experiencing appreciation faster than any other market AND has better Cash flow than most anywhere. I could not have accomplished half of what I have in any other market.

    Here is my answers to question asked about Detroit and or Michigan

  • Realtor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2015 · 211 posts · 104 votes
    11y

    @Richard Dunlop couldn't have said it better Kudos!!

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 344 posts · 276 votes
    11y

    @Tyler Brown, you will be hard pressed to find a duplex in Philadelphia at your price point of 40k-55k that only needs cosmetic repairs and will rent for $500-$700k per unit.

    While you may find a number of duplexes online at your price point they are neighborhoods well outside of the Center City District.  Homes in this price range tend to be lower income neighborhoods and the rent you can expect would probably be more of $450-$500 per unit.  And yes, expect to do a little more than a cosmetic fix up in most cases.  However, if you aren't opposed to renting Section 8 you can get a bit more in rents. 

    Figure out where you want to invest, what type of tenants you want to attract, and do your research from there.  Philadelphia is a hot area right now for investors, but not all that glitters is gold.

  • Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2015 · 13 posts · 5 votes
    11y

    I like Detroit. All my houses there are rented and kicking out nice cash flow. I will keep buying more. I live in San Diego. Don't care for Detroit's weather but like their prices compared to what renters are paying. You just have to find a good property manager. Mine keeps me updated and keeps the places rented. With out a good property manager I would be screwed. So to answer the question above, find the property manager then the property for them to manage in the areas which have the prices you are looking for. 

  • Investor · Milpitas, CA · Member since 2014 · 116 posts · 103 votes
    11y

    As an out of state investor who invest in PA, I find it heart warming that @Jay Hinrichs says that he rather like (some part) of PA :)

    @Tyler Brown I would advise you not too buy too cheap, and be seduced by high cash flow on paper. So many thing can go wrong, and it could take you quite a bit of money to stabilize them. The end return could be abysmal, many people actually loose money on these low end properties.

    I rather like Wilkes Bare/Scranton area too, reasonable demographic with lots of working class renters, and really not too far from where you are.

    Are you thinking of managing it yourself, or do you want to hire a PM. If the later, you should find that first before spending too much time looking at the property. The PM can then point out the better areas to hunt properties in.

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 125 posts · 48 votes
    11y

    @Luke Smith & @Ezra Nugroho, yes I'd be using  PM, and your method is probably better.  I've been approaching it somewhat backwards, looking for a property first, then researching and reaching out to a PM.  Going to the PM first and having them suggest some more specific locations is a good idea.

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    1 - The same house you buy in California, or N.Y., or many other markets that costs $400-450k, I can get for $40-45k.  Yes, the exact same house...maybe minus the proximity to an ocean...the Great Lakes are nice...and it's not salt water.  Same quality of life, same A or B rating, same rating on the school system, same condition of the house, same....

    Tell you what @Joe V, why dont you come visit my house in the Bay Area in January and tell me that the same house in SE Michigan (see I didnt say Detroit) offers the same quality of life...lol. 

  • Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 755 posts · 462 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    1 - The same house you buy in California, or N.Y., or many other markets that costs $400-450k, I can get for $40-45k.  Yes, the exact same house...maybe minus the proximity to an ocean...the Great Lakes are nice...and it's not salt water.  Same quality of life, same A or B rating, same rating on the school system, same condition of the house, same....

    Tell you what @Joe V, why dont you come visit my house in the Bay Area in January and tell me that the same house in SE Michigan (see I didnt say Detroit) offers the same quality of life...lol. 

    So are you suggesting that one of @Joe Villeneuve 's neighbors living in a comfortable house with a value of $40,000 should sell and take their $40,000 and move to SF for the quality of life.

    Ok do they spend their $40,000 on rent for 8 months or do they try to borrow(gift) $350,000 more from their rich relatives as down payment so their mortgage on the $400,000 additional still financed does not exceed their annual income.

    My quality of life is 10 x what I ever would have been able to establish anywhere in California. I lived and worked in all three major markets of California, San Diego, OC Tustin, Bay area Santa Clara had I not left California I would still be looking at REI from the outside.

    Yes, I am suggesting that one of your neighbors that owes a mortgage payment of $3000 even though they have $350,000 equity should take the equity, leave the rat race, and buy enough properties in SE Michigan"(see I didnt say Detroit)" to retire with an annual  income exceeding the best 5 years they've ever done all put together.

    And since they are now retired they could come back and visit you for all of January.

    Come to think of it they could spend January anywhere in the world that they want to.

  • Joe VilleneuvePro Member
    Plymouth, MI · Member since 2013 · 13k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    11y
  • Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2014 · 755 posts · 462 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Joe Villeneuve:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    1 - The same house you buy in California, or N.Y., or many other markets that costs $400-450k, I can get for $40-45k.  Yes, the exact same house...maybe minus the proximity to an ocean...the Great Lakes are nice...and it's not salt water.  Same quality of life, same A or B rating, same rating on the school system, same condition of the house, same....

    Tell you what @Joe V, why dont you come visit my house in the Bay Area in January and tell me that the same house in SE Michigan (see I didnt say Detroit) offers the same quality of life...lol. 

     ....uh, see what @Richard Dunlopjust wrote.  Let me add I didn't say ALL 450's in CA were = to ALL $40's in MI.  I said what you can buy in CA for $450 you can get in MI for $40k and they would be the same...just different Zips.  There are many different Markets in CA where $450k buys you different things, just like in MI.

    And the $400k in the high desert of San Bern/Riverside does not get you much quality of life. Haven't seen the gang areas of Oakland recently but I'm guessing the same $400k leaves you wishing life had more quality to it.

    I loved San Diego and now I could afford to live there if I choose. California has some great areas but unless you've owned a house or houses for 20-30 years the average person cannot accomplish much quality of life. 

  • New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 125 posts · 48 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Luke Smith:

    I like Detroit. All my houses there are rented and kicking out nice cash flow. I will keep buying more.

    Are you originally from Detroit or have some connection there?  How do you know what neighborhoods are safe to invest in?  Detroit seems like a great place to get very low priced housing stock, but how do you know you're not purchasing something in the middle of a war zone?

  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    "Quality of life" is subjective.  Wisconsin for example is cold in the winter, and California is not.  But WI offers lower sales tax, lower housing prices, and lower prices for other things as well.  WI offers life near one of the largest freshwater lakes in the world, and California offers life near the ocean. So which is better?  

    Neither ... both -- it's subjective.

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