Deal Structure Ideas for Flips

Deal Structure Ideas for Flips

Ferndale, MI · Member since 2013 · 28 posts · 0 votes

My investing partner and I are about to start on what we hope is a  series of flips, in a town about two hours from us. I am very familiar with the area, and we will be partnering with another experienced flipper/investor (Brent).

Ideally, its going to work like this. My Partner and I will be buying the houses using a line of credit we have, at 6%. We will fund the rehab. We will give some input on floor plans, decor, etc. Other than that, we are just the money.  Brent, will be finding the deals, closing them, general contracting, doing some of the labor, and ultimately selling the house.

We have found the first house, and the numbers are roughly as follows: 20k purchase. 30k rehab. 100k sale.

My question is, how would you all structure the deal? We have discussed something like, after all expenses are paid (including Brent's labor), we get 20% on our money. In this case, that would be 10k. That would then leave 40k profit. I'm thinking we would then split that 50/50 between our private investment company and Brent. How does that sound? Suggestions? 

I really want all parties involved to win, and to incentivize everyone to want to do multiple deals per year for as long as the market will bear.

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Real Estate Investor · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2014 · 60 posts · 33 votes
11y
Some great advice that I have heard is to make it a win/win. Work with your partner and come up with what works for both of you. If you want to work with this person on future deals talk about what will make it work for both of you. The best tool to use for negotiations is talking about value added. What value does each party bring to the table. Up front communication will lead to a more successful deal and better relationships.
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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y

    First, you're ignoring fixed costs in the equation -- the gross profit would be closer to $40K, not $50K.

    Second, why do you think you're entitled to 20% interest on your money IN ADDITION TO half the profits?  If you can negotiate that, more power to you...but if you were partnering with me, I'd pay you EITHER as debt OR as equity.  And while the 50% equity might be reasonable, the 20% interest would be too high by itself.

    But 20% interest plus 50% seems way to rich for my blood...

  • Ferndale, MI · Member since 2013 · 28 posts · 0 votes
    11y

    Thank you for the feedback. 

    By fixed costs, you mean closing, insurance etc? I get that, was just keeping numbers round to be concise. I'm not entitled to 20%. These were merely numbers/scenarios that were thrown out there and are being discussed btw both parties. How would you structure a deal like this? Specifically? Again, I want all parties happy and wanting to do more deals.

  • Ferndale, MI · Member since 2013 · 28 posts · 0 votes
    11y
    Anyone else have ideas about how to structure this so that parties are happy?
  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Groveland, FL · Member since 2012 · 504 posts · 395 votes
    11y

    I agree with J Scott. 20% plus 50% is way out there.

  • Ferndale, MI · Member since 2013 · 28 posts · 0 votes
    11y
    I don't disagree. That's why I'm asking. Any helpful suggestions on how you would structure? 10% & 40/60 (60 to Brent)? 10% & 25/75? I'm open to anything. Again, my wish is for everyone to prosper. I've just never done a deal like this before.
  • Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    That depends on what all your partner is doing and what risks he is taking. Being the financial backers you arguably have more at risk. At the same time if he is spending 40+ hours at the home a week he is counting on it as well. I would say 60 (Your partner) 40 (you) IF you haven't done flips before. You will be relying on him and asking him hundreds of questions on the first few. After you get down how it works and can contribute more I think renegotiating to a 50/50 split isn't a bad idea. Now if he is comfortable working for 40 and you taking 60 why not?

  • Real Estate Investor · Santa Rosa, CA · Member since 2014 · 60 posts · 33 votes
    11y
    Some great advice that I have heard is to make it a win/win. Work with your partner and come up with what works for both of you. If you want to work with this person on future deals talk about what will make it work for both of you. The best tool to use for negotiations is talking about value added. What value does each party bring to the table. Up front communication will lead to a more successful deal and better relationships.
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jeff S.:

    I don't disagree. That's why I'm asking. Any helpful suggestions on how you would structure? 10% & 40/60 (60 to Brent)? 10% & 25/75? I'm open to anything. Again, my wish is for everyone to prosper. I've just never done a deal like this before.

    I think you should choose either debt OR equity...not both.

    12-15% interest plus 0-2 points if you're looking to provide debt.

    50-60% equity in the deal if you're looking to be an equity partner.

    One or the other seems right to me...

  • Ferndale, MI · Member since 2013 · 28 posts · 0 votes
    11y

    @J Scott

    @Aaron Hall

    @Ryan D.

    Thanks guys, great advice. Aaron, exactly. My intention is not to be piggish here, I want parties happy and motivated. That is going to help me with my long term deals, more than making an extra couple thousand.

    Ryan and J Scott, that sounds better, and less complicated for everyone involved.  This first deal is really to tests the waters, partnership-wise, and we admittedly don't bring a lot to the table right now. In the future though, we do have access to $$$, so we bring scale that will allow Brent (deal finder, rehab-er) to concentrate his talents on this full-time, and leave his current job. So, the value we add will increase as the deals get larger and multiply.

  • Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 324 votes
    11y

    There are a lot of ways you can structure it.

    I probably would have these goals:

    1. return of principal and payment of interest

    2. Reasonable return of labor for Brent

    3. A profit split that encourages future business

    I would give Brent a fixed amount(pre-negotiated) for labor and the 50% of the profits

    After the a couple successful deals Brent should be able to invest enough that the money(and I would give credit for his labor rate) should be enough to be 50/50.  If Brent is getting 10K in labor credit in the 60K expenses/100K sale price example.  He would add 25K in cash and you would add 35K.  You each would end up getting 15K in the profit and Brent would get 25K total 15K profit and 10K labor.  While that may not seem like a great profit split for you, he is doing a lot of the work and has his time and money at risk also.  I would do the labor credit on a per flip basis, since some will be easy and many won't.  Also Brent using his money in addition to yours means you will have the ability to do more and to do bigger projects.

  • Ferndale, MI · Member since 2013 · 28 posts · 0 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jesse T.:

    There are a lot of ways you can structure it.

    I probably would have these goals:

    1. return of principal and payment of interest

    2. Reasonable return of labor for Brent

    3. A profit split that encourages future business

    I would give Brent a fixed amount(pre-negotiated) for labor and the 50% of the profits

    After the a couple successful deals Brent should be able to invest enough that the money(and I would give credit for his labor rate) should be enough to be 50/50.  If Brent is getting 10K in labor credit in the 60K expenses/100K sale price example.  He would add 25K in cash and you would add 35K.  You each would end up getting 15K in the profit and Brent would get 25K total 15K profit and 10K labor.  While that may not seem like a great profit split for you, he is doing a lot of the work and has his time and money at risk also.  I would do the labor credit on a per flip basis, since some will be easy and many won't.  Also Brent using his money in addition to yours means you will have the ability to do more and to do bigger projects.

    Thanks Jesse, I like the sound of that. Just to be clear, it sounds like you DO think that re-coop of principle + interest+profit split is a fair expectation on our part?

  • Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 324 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jeff S.:
    Originally posted by @Jesse T.:

    There are a lot of ways you can structure it.

    I probably would have these goals:

    1. return of principal and payment of interest

    2. Reasonable return of labor for Brent

    3. A profit split that encourages future business

    I would give Brent a fixed amount(pre-negotiated) for labor and the 50% of the profits

    After the a couple successful deals Brent should be able to invest enough that the money(and I would give credit for his labor rate) should be enough to be 50/50.  If Brent is getting 10K in labor credit in the 60K expenses/100K sale price example.  He would add 25K in cash and you would add 35K.  You each would end up getting 15K in the profit and Brent would get 25K total 15K profit and 10K labor.  While that may not seem like a great profit split for you, he is doing a lot of the work and has his time and money at risk also.  I would do the labor credit on a per flip basis, since some will be easy and many won't.  Also Brent using his money in addition to yours means you will have the ability to do more and to do bigger projects.

    Thanks Jesse, I like the sound of that. Just to be clear, it sounds like you DO think that re-coop of principle + interest+profit split is a fair expectation on our part?

     The interest would be the interest that you pay which is an expense.  I think the objections were to you taking additional interest on your money.  Your money is invested for capital gains.  You are getting money cheap, so I would want the first couple deals done correctly rather than quickly.  This is another way that the interest charge could backfire.

  • Ferndale, MI · Member since 2013 · 28 posts · 0 votes
    11y
    I understand. Thank you.
  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jesse T.:
    Originally posted by @Jeff S.:
    Originally posted by @Jesse T.:

    1. return of principal and payment of interest

    Thanks Jesse, I like the sound of that. Just to be clear, it sounds like you DO think that re-coop of principle + interest+profit split is a fair expectation on our part?

    The interest would be the interest that you pay which is an expense.  I think the objections were to you taking additional interest on your money. 

    Personally, I don't think he should be asking to be repaid for the interest he's paying on the money. It's his choice/benefit to borrow the money to increase his IRR, and that should be HIS expense. If he can't afford to loan the money from his own pocket (or chooses not to do so for some reason), that's a hit he should take.

    This is no different than if Brent said, "I'm not going to find the deal myself, I'm not going to GC the deal myself, I'm not going to sell the deal myself -- I'm going to hire people to do all these things for me...and I want to pass the cost of these things on to the project."  If that's the case, Brett doesn't provide nearly the value you thought he did.

    Likewise on you being the money guy but not being able to provide the money without borrowing it from someone else...

    Just my $.02...

  • Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 324 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:

    Personally, I don't think he should be asking to be repaid for the interest he's paying on the money. It's his choice/benefit to borrow the money to increase his IRR, and that should be HIS expense. If he can't afford to loan the money from his own pocket (or chooses not to do so for some reason), that's a hit he should take.

    This is no different than if Brent said, "I'm not going to find the deal myself, I'm not going to GC the deal myself, I'm not going to sell the deal myself -- I'm going to hire people to do all these things for me...and I want to pass the cost of these things on to the project."  If that's the case, Brett doesn't provide nearly the value you thought he did.

    Likewise on you being the money guy but not being able to provide the money without borrowing it from someone else...

    Just my $.02...

    I think the "labor cost" for Brent would cover those.  I think interest for the money for the project should be paid before profits are split.  Where it could be a problem is if the deal takes a long time and does not have much profit - it might be a case where the interest expense would wipe out the profits for the OP.  I think it would be better for both sides to get a tiny bit of profits.  

    I do agree if there was a case where they needed to take a loss, the interest costs should be the first place to take a hit.

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