Does Bigger Pockets facilitate a Culture of Trash Individuals???

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Does Bigger Pockets facilitate a Culture of Trash Individuals???

James Wise
Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes

I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

Thoughts??????

________

Max Schulman

  • Investor
  • Cincinnati, OH

Replied about 2 hours ago

@Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

________

James Wise

#4 All Forums Contributor

  • Real Estate Broker
  • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

Replied 16 minutes ago

Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.

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Michael S.
Huntsville, AL · Member since 2018 · 579 posts · 864 votes
1y

@James Wise- I'm going to take a slight tangent to what you posted about, but it's one of the things I find the most frustrating about the BP forums, and is relevant to the topic at hand.  And that is people asking for advise on a situation, and yet they don't have the courtesy of thanking the responders or even giving a token upvote for their time and expertise.  I saw a post yesterday asking a very specific question - 10 different posters responded with really well thought out explanations based on their experience.  What did the original poster do?  Nothing.  No thanks, no feedback, no upvote, no dialogue.  I didn't bother wasting my time to respond as well.  That's ridiculous in my opinion.  You have people on this forum with years and decades of experience, who provide valid feedback FREE of charge, and the poster can't even take a moment to thank them or follow-up on questions asked?  Time is money, experience is priceless, and people on here just EXPECT everyone to give them all their expertise.  Ridiculous.  Frankly, if someone posts a question, and then ghosts the thread, their account should be closed.  

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @James Wise:

    I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

    Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

    For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

    Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

    Thoughts??????

    ________

    Max Schulman

    • Investor
    • Cincinnati, OH

    Replied about 2 hours ago

    @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

    Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

    Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

    Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

    Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

    Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

    Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

    By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

    Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

    Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

    More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

    At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

    I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

    All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

    After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

    What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

    Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

    Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

    ________

    James Wise

    #4 All Forums Contributor

    • Real Estate Broker
    • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

    Replied 16 minutes ago

    Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.

    Novice flippers, we have strict listing agreement criteria for when we work with. They always want to blame everyone else for their mistakes. We have a termination fee that's essentially the same if we close it. We have them sign the listing agreement too as soon as we are buying the property. Not going to help them for months on end on their rehab just to have them hire a different agent or fsbo. 

    We have great working relationships with professional flippers. But these 1 off novices, there's a ton more work, way less respect, and way more liability since they've typically cut a bunch of corners on their rehab.
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    • James Wise
      OP
      Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Russell Brazil:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

      Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

      For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

      Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

      Thoughts??????

      ________

      Max Schulman

      • Investor
      • Cincinnati, OH

      Replied about 2 hours ago

      @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

      Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

      Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

      Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

      Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

      Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

      Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

      By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

      Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

      Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

      More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

      At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

      I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

      All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

      After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

      What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

      Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

      Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

      ________

      James Wise

      #4 All Forums Contributor

      • Real Estate Broker
      • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

      Replied 16 minutes ago

      Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.

      Novice flippers, we have strict listing agreement criteria for when we work with. They always want to blame everyone else for their mistakes. We have a termination fee that's essentially the same if we close it. We have them sign the listing agreement too as soon as we are buying the property. Not going to help them for months on end on their rehab just to have them hire a different agent or fsbo. 

      We have great working relationships with professional flippers. But these 1 off novices, there's a ton more work, way less respect, and way more liability since they've typically cut a bunch of corners on their rehab.

       Yup, everything you describe is all too common. It happens because Agents, Contractors, Lenders, Bigger Pockets forum posters etc....let them get away with it. I would like to see service providers start to hold these people accountable for this type of stuff. I don't see why all of these service providers are operating in such fear and allowing this to go on.

      4Reply
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Russell Brazil:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

      Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

      For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

      Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

      Thoughts??????

      ________

      Max Schulman

      • Investor
      • Cincinnati, OH

      Replied about 2 hours ago

      @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

      Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

      Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

      Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

      Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

      Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

      Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

      By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

      Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

      Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

      More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

      At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

      I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

      All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

      After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

      What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

      Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

      Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

      ________

      James Wise

      #4 All Forums Contributor

      • Real Estate Broker
      • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

      Replied 16 minutes ago

      Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.

      Novice flippers, we have strict listing agreement criteria for when we work with. They always want to blame everyone else for their mistakes. We have a termination fee that's essentially the same if we close it. We have them sign the listing agreement too as soon as we are buying the property. Not going to help them for months on end on their rehab just to have them hire a different agent or fsbo. 

      We have great working relationships with professional flippers. But these 1 off novices, there's a ton more work, way less respect, and way more liability since they've typically cut a bunch of corners on their rehab.

      Or you can do what Ms. Lori does and that is simply not to work with first time flippers.. 
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      7Reply
    • Pilla John
      Real Estate Agent · Member since 2022 · 11 posts · 2 votes
      1y

      @Russell Brazil thank you for saying this I will keep this strat in mind for my future. 

      0Reply
  • Brandon Croucier
    Lender · Lake Havasu City, AZ · Member since 2024 · 700 posts · 285 votes
    1y

    Ridiculous, he would've cleared more money & TIME just accepting the $15k credit at a $210k PP.

    Unfortunately I can say I've dealt with many situations similar ...

    One that comes to mind is when I Worked with a builder to refi out of debt for 3 months after a property wouldn't sell for 9 months... Docs are out and closing is in 1 day and I get a call.

    "we got an offer for the property today so we're not going to move forward on the refinance" he later mentioned as mortgage brokers we "do nothing" 

    At the end of the day, some people just don't respect others and have no idea the amount of work it takes to make these deals happen..

    7Reply
    • James Wise
      OP
      Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Brandon Croucier:

      Ridiculous, he would've cleared more money & TIME just accepting the $15k credit at a $210k PP.

      Unfortunately I can say I've dealt with many situations similar ...

      One that comes to mind is when I Worked with a builder to refi out of debt for 3 months after a property wouldn't sell for 9 months... Docs are out and closing is in 1 day and I get a call.

      "we got an offer for the property today so we're not going to move forward on the refinance" he later mentioned as mortgage brokers we "do nothing" 

      At the end of the day, some people just don't respect others and have no idea the amount of work it takes to make these deals happen..


       It's one thing to behave this way. But to be so entitled as to publicly post about behaving this way like there is nothing inappropriate about how you conduct business speaks to a much bigger cultural problem on these forums. 

      5Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    1y

    Yes to all of the above.

    I think this is a societal problem, not just an investor problem.

    No manners. Entitled. Lazy. Not that smart. Expecting highly skilled professionals to work for free just so the poor newbie investor can not lose money. Been there, done that as a GC.

    8Reply
    • James Wise
      OP
      Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

      Yes to all of the above.

      I think this is a societal problem, not just an investor problem.

      No manners. Entitled. Lazy. Not that smart. Expecting highly skilled professionals to work for free just so the poor newbie investor can not lose money. Been there, done that as a GC.


       Ignoring what we can't control (general societal sentiment) what can we do HERE on BiggerPockets to fix this obvious cultural problem with posters here on the website? 

      1Reply
    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @James Wise:
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

      Yes to all of the above.

      I think this is a societal problem, not just an investor problem.

      No manners. Entitled. Lazy. Not that smart. Expecting highly skilled professionals to work for free just so the poor newbie investor can not lose money. Been there, done that as a GC.


       Ignoring what we can't control (general societal sentiment) what can we do HERE on BiggerPockets to fix this obvious cultural problem with posters here on the website? 

      IMO, not much. Unless we want to become authoritarian about this. These kind of posters are more entertaining than anything else (Once again, IMHO).

      Besides, I think that once they get a taste of the 'real world' and learn a few life lessons, they will generally learn some manners.

      2Reply
  • Michael S.
    Huntsville, AL · Member since 2018 · 579 posts · 864 votes
    1y

    @James Wise- I'm going to take a slight tangent to what you posted about, but it's one of the things I find the most frustrating about the BP forums, and is relevant to the topic at hand.  And that is people asking for advise on a situation, and yet they don't have the courtesy of thanking the responders or even giving a token upvote for their time and expertise.  I saw a post yesterday asking a very specific question - 10 different posters responded with really well thought out explanations based on their experience.  What did the original poster do?  Nothing.  No thanks, no feedback, no upvote, no dialogue.  I didn't bother wasting my time to respond as well.  That's ridiculous in my opinion.  You have people on this forum with years and decades of experience, who provide valid feedback FREE of charge, and the poster can't even take a moment to thank them or follow-up on questions asked?  Time is money, experience is priceless, and people on here just EXPECT everyone to give them all their expertise.  Ridiculous.  Frankly, if someone posts a question, and then ghosts the thread, their account should be closed.  

    24Reply
    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Michael S.:

      @James Wise- I'm going to take a slight tangent to what you posted about, but it's one of the things I find the most frustrating about the BP forums, and is relevant to the topic at hand.  And that is people asking for advise on a situation, and yet they don't have the courtesy of thanking the responders or even giving a token upvote for their time and expertise.  I saw a post yesterday asking a very specific question - 10 different posters responded with really well thought out explanations based on their experience.  What did the original poster do?  Nothing.  No thanks, no feedback, no upvote, no dialogue.  I didn't bother wasting my time to respond as well.  That's ridiculous in my opinion.  You have people on this forum with years and decades of experience, who provide valid feedback FREE of charge, and the poster can't even take a moment to thank them or follow-up on questions asked?  Time is money, experience is priceless, and people on here just EXPECT everyone to give them all their expertise.  Ridiculous.  Frankly, if someone posts a question, and then ghosts the thread, their account should be closed.  


       My time is valuable.   I charge a lot for my time, but I freely provide guidance on this site and to certain other people (I have enough that do not need to be compensated for anything).   I do not get bothered by not getting an upvote as much as I am bothered when the person who asks for advice contradicts it or does not value it   I am not saying it is common, but it does happen. 

      If they already “know” the answer, why are they asking the question?   More shocking is when multiple people tell them the same thing yet they are convinced they know better.

      One of the worse cases was a person in my market who had not achieved a good return on his RE.  It was a small sample size (2), but they had chosen to invest unleveraged.   Because my market is a high appreciation market and poor cash flow market, the leverage is more critical to accelerate the return than most other markets.   This was pointed out repeatedly, but he wanted to ignore that his method of RE investing was stupid for his (my) market. Because his RE did not produce a good return, he tried to convince people RE was a poor investment.  The reality was he is a poor RE investor that does not understand the numbers so he achieved a poor return.

      I see it often on underwriting on sustained maintenance/cap ex.   I have maybe been told a dozen times my allocation is too high.  I typically respond asking how they derived their number.   most do not answer.  Those that do basically state they used no numbers to derive their estimate but they tell me mine are too high.  It is almost funny.  Your numbers are too high.  How did you derive your numbers?   I saw other people use it or the calculator I used defaulted to that percentage.  I cannot make up these responses.    at least they did some underwriting, but no effort on justified maintenance/cap ex numbers.  So their underwriting is as good as their inputs that were not good.

      Another flagrant case is @henry Clark was helping a newbie to create a self storage facility.   Henry provided detailed instructions, but for some reason the newbie would ignore some of the guidance.  I would have gotten frustrated by the second time my advice was ignored and stopped providing the wonderful guidance Henry was providing.

      I had a protege that I was providing free mentoring that ignored some/much of my guidance.   It was frustrating but the protege is doing OK in his RE investing but would be doing better if he had followed my guidance.

      After the last BPCon I offered to walk a few newbies through my last purchase including the numbers.  I am up ~$1m above costs on this investment.  I gave these people a multi hour window to show up.  One person drove by after the window. If she had stopped, she would have found that I was still there and I would have walked her through the investment and the plans to complete the value add.   No one else even drove by.  I do not make these offers often, but when I do it is surprising how few take advantage of the offer (and how few of the ones that do that I ever see any resulting action).  Fortunately my first protege has been successful enough that it provides sufficient positive reinforcement for my efforts (he is getting close to 8 digit net worth).

      My time is valuable.   I charge a lot for my time.  When I give my time for free but the guidance is not valued, then I do not desire to give additional guidance.

      Best wishes

      8Reply
    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Dan H.:
      Quote from @Michael S.:

      @James Wise- I'm going to take a slight tangent to what you posted about, but it's one of the things I find the most frustrating about the BP forums, and is relevant to the topic at hand.  And that is people asking for advise on a situation, and yet they don't have the courtesy of thanking the responders or even giving a token upvote for their time and expertise.  I saw a post yesterday asking a very specific question - 10 different posters responded with really well thought out explanations based on their experience.  What did the original poster do?  Nothing.  No thanks, no feedback, no upvote, no dialogue.  I didn't bother wasting my time to respond as well.  That's ridiculous in my opinion.  You have people on this forum with years and decades of experience, who provide valid feedback FREE of charge, and the poster can't even take a moment to thank them or follow-up on questions asked?  Time is money, experience is priceless, and people on here just EXPECT everyone to give them all their expertise.  Ridiculous.  Frankly, if someone posts a question, and then ghosts the thread, their account should be closed.  


       My time is valuable.   I charge a lot for my time, but I freely provide guidance on this site and to certain other people (I have enough that do not need to be compensated for anything).   I do not get bothered by not getting an upvote as much as I am bothered when the person who asks for advice contradicts it or does not value it   I am not saying it is common, but it does happen. 

      If they already “know” the answer, why are they asking the question?   More shocking is when multiple people tell them the same thing yet they are convinced they know better.

      One of the worse cases was a person in my market who had not achieved a good return on his RE.  It was a small sample size (2), but they had chosen to invest unleveraged.   Because my market is a high appreciation market and poor cash flow market, the leverage is more critical to accelerate the return than most other markets.   This was pointed out repeatedly, but he wanted to ignore that his method of RE investing was stupid for his (my) market. Because his RE did not produce a good return, he tried to convince people RE was a poor investment.  The reality was he is a poor RE investor that does not understand the numbers so he achieved a poor return.

      I see it often on underwriting on sustained maintenance/cap ex.   I have maybe been told a dozen times my allocation is too high.  I typically respond asking how they derived their number.   most do not answer.  Those that do basically state they used no numbers to derive their estimate but they tell me mine are too high.  It is almost funny.  Your numbers are too high.  How did you derive your numbers?   I saw other people use it or the calculator I used defaulted to that percentage.  I cannot make up these responses.    at least they did some underwriting, but no effort on justified maintenance/cap ex numbers.  So their underwriting is as good as their inputs that were not good.

      Another flagrant case is @henry Clark was helping a newbie to create a self storage facility.   Henry provided detailed instructions, but for some reason the newbie would ignore some of the guidance.  I would have gotten frustrated by the second time my advice was ignored and stopped providing the wonderful guidance Henry was providing.

      I had a protege that I was providing free mentoring that ignored some/much of my guidance.   It was frustrating but the protege is doing OK in his RE investing but would be doing better if he had followed my guidance.

      After the last BPCon I offered to walk a few newbies through my last purchase including the numbers.  I am up ~$1m above costs on this investment.  I gave these people a multi hour window to show up.  One person drove by after the window. If she had stopped, she would have found that I was still there and I would have walked her through the investment and the plans to complete the value add.   No one else even drove by.  I do not make these offers often, but when I do it is surprising how few take advantage of the offer (and how few of the ones that do that I ever see any resulting action).  Fortunately my first protege has been successful enough that it provides sufficient positive reinforcement for my efforts (he is getting close to 8 digit net worth).

      My time is valuable.   I charge a lot for my time.  When I give my time for free but the guidance is not valued, then I do not desire to give additional guidance.

      Best wishes

      More shocking is when multiple people tell them the same thing yet they are convinced they know better.


      This gets me too.....all of these uber experienced professionals give the same great advice. And yet the newbie investor always knows better. Lol, somebody explain that to me....
      3Reply
    • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
      Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
      1y

      @Michael S. Of course it shows good manners to respond thanking the person who responded for their time. We're in agreement there. But honestly, it doesn't bother me when someone doesn't respond or show gratitude for my responses to their questions. When I post an answer to someone's question, I try to take the opportunity to highlight my experience or knowledge in an area for whoever else reads the thread. It helps establish credibility over time. Which in turn has created a good return on time invested for me. I would have to say that I have probably made millions of dollars through the personal connections that I have made though BiggerPockets. Whether it was from attracting private money lenders who have lent to me on deals so that they could learn while they earn interest on their money. Or from people who have paid me to coach them to on deals. Or people I have taken to lunch that have shared a nugget ot wisdom or a golden contact with me. So for me, when I make a post, this one included, it often has two purposes, respond and contribute to the thread, as well as establish credibility in the areas I offer services. That way, I never feel Iike it was a waste of time. 

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      0Reply
  • Alan F.
    Flipper/Rehabber · CA · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    I have no idea how people with no experience in remodeling, business, and management expect to become proficient in flipping a house.

    "Investors" have the full responsibility in managing everything, I mean everything.

    Re DD on that post; The roof was an easy visual inspection. A proficient electrician could identify Aluminum wiring, use a megger/ohm meter to inspect without utilities on. HVAC do visual and date code on system or at least research age via model # etc. Same with plumbing. Its our responsibility to underwrite SOW.

    It's a big leap to go from the W2/consumers mindset to a business owner mindset.

    Burning through REA's, PM's, contractor's won't help their cause.

    4Reply
  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @James Wise:

    I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

    Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

    For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

    Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

    Thoughts??????

    ________

    Max Schulman

    • Investor
    • Cincinnati, OH

    Replied about 2 hours ago

    @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

    Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

    Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

    Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

    Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

    Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

    Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

    By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

    Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

    Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

    More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

    At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

    I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

    All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

    After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

    What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

    Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

    Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

    ________

    James Wise

    #4 All Forums Contributor

    • Real Estate Broker
    • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

    Replied 16 minutes ago

    Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.


    So the way I read this was this person bought a property without having utilities turned on to do a thorough inspection (mistake #1), poorly managed the contractor or went on the cheap and did not perform proper repairs to get it to its value (Mistake #2), blames the agent on this when they brought in offers around asking but due to not fixing the property buyers wanted credits (mistake #3 not accepting offer)- and its the agent, the flip system and everyone elses fault?

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    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Chris Seveney:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

      Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

      For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

      Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

      Thoughts??????

      ________

      Max Schulman

      • Investor
      • Cincinnati, OH

      Replied about 2 hours ago

      @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

      Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

      Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

      Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

      Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

      Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

      Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

      By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

      Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

      Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

      More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

      At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

      I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

      All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

      After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

      What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

      Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

      Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

      ________

      James Wise

      #4 All Forums Contributor

      • Real Estate Broker
      • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

      Replied 16 minutes ago

      Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.


      So the way I read this was this person bought a property without having utilities turned on to do a thorough inspection (mistake #1), poorly managed the contractor or went on the cheap and did not perform proper repairs to get it to its value (Mistake #2), blames the agent on this when they brought in offers around asking but due to not fixing the property buyers wanted credits (mistake #3 not accepting offer)- and its the agent, the flip system and everyone elses fault?


      well in my 50 years of selling RE for others although frankly have not worked at the street level in a good 10 years now.. this is very common with over priced listings be them rehabbed deals or just plain listings.. first broker cant move it then price reduce price reduce then the last one attached to the house sells it.. if the seller had lowered the price to what they eventually sold it for the first brokers would have sold it.. Brokers have to take some responsibility if they are taking over priced listings as well.. Again Ms. Lori way of doing this is OK I will go with your price mr. seller for 2 weeks we dont have a real offer we lower it to my suggested price.. if they wont agree she pass's
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    • James Wise
      OP
      Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Chris Seveney:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

      Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

      For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

      Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

      Thoughts??????

      ________

      Max Schulman

      • Investor
      • Cincinnati, OH

      Replied about 2 hours ago

      @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

      Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

      Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

      Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

      Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

      Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

      Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

      By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

      Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

      Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

      More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

      At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

      I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

      All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

      After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

      What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

      Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

      Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

      ________

      James Wise

      #4 All Forums Contributor

      • Real Estate Broker
      • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

      Replied 16 minutes ago

      Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.


      So the way I read this was this person bought a property without having utilities turned on to do a thorough inspection (mistake #1), poorly managed the contractor or went on the cheap and did not perform proper repairs to get it to its value (Mistake #2), blames the agent on this when they brought in offers around asking but due to not fixing the property buyers wanted credits (mistake #3 not accepting offer)- and its the agent, the flip system and everyone elses fault?


       Exactly. And the bigger real problem is we allow this stuff to get posted every day without calling it out. Hell, it's worse than that. Not only do people not call it out, you usually end up with 5 or 6 other people telling the poster that their right and they start trashing the actual people who were wronged while the O.P. get's to prance around thinking it's ok to steal from people.

      0Reply
    • Calvin Thomas
      Developer · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 812 posts · 718 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Chris Seveney:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

      Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

      For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

      Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

      Thoughts??????

      ________

      Max Schulman

      • Investor
      • Cincinnati, OH

      Replied about 2 hours ago

      @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

      Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

      Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

      Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

      Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

      Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

      Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

      By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

      Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

      Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

      More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

      At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

      I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

      All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

      After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

      What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

      Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

      Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

      ________

      James Wise

      #4 All Forums Contributor

      • Real Estate Broker
      • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

      Replied 16 minutes ago

      Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.


      So the way I read this was this person bought a property without having utilities turned on to do a thorough inspection (mistake #1), poorly managed the contractor or went on the cheap and did not perform proper repairs to get it to its value (Mistake #2), blames the agent on this when they brought in offers around asking but due to not fixing the property buyers wanted credits (mistake #3 not accepting offer)- and its the agent, the flip system and everyone elses fault?


      I'll be honest with you.  Most of the "home inspectors" are useless.  I can tour a property and just pick out the issues with my eyes,  Nine times out of ten is a poorly or not corrected fixed moisture or plumbing issue.  Roofs and windows are other big issues.  It's best to hire a good GC and walk the property with you.
      2Reply
  • John Clark
    Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    While I agree about greedy, stupid, I'm-never-at-fault buyers coming here and trashing mentors/agents/teams/etc., I have yet to hear of a mentor/agent/team/etc. turning an investor down and saying "No, you're not ready."

    A pox on both their houses.

    3Reply
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @John Clark:

      While I agree about greedy, stupid, I'm-never-at-fault buyers coming here and trashing mentors/agents/teams/etc., I have yet to hear of a mentor/agent/team/etc. turning an investor down and saying "No, you're not ready."

      A pox on both their houses.


      thats because MS. Lori is not on BP  she turns down all sorts of buyers and sellers. or refers them on.. 
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    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @John Clark:

      While I agree about greedy, stupid, I'm-never-at-fault buyers coming here and trashing mentors/agents/teams/etc., I have yet to hear of a mentor/agent/team/etc. turning an investor down and saying "No, you're not ready."

      A pox on both their houses.

      I have yet to hear of a mentor/agent/team/etc. turning an investor down and saying "No, you're not ready."

      True. But most people on here giving advice are not trying to gather business or make money, we're just here to have fun and help out a little.

      6Reply
  • Patrick Roberts
    Lender · Charleston, SC · Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    It's not just on biggerpockets. I deal with this stuff a lot with both homebuyer and investor clients on loans in two very different markets. 

    It's all over Reddit, too. You should see some of the stupidity posted in the mortgages and homebuyer subreddits. I distinctly remember some moron writing about how he worked with an agent and lender for months to get under contract, then tried to shop them both last minute after all the work was done to save a couple hundred bucks on fees - to "trim the fat" in his words. This idiot goes with the "cheapest" lender and then complains about how got "lied to" by said lender because he got caught in an old-fashioned bait and switch. As we all know, when you go with the cheapest bid and the lowest priced provider, you usually have problems. It's like, yeah, that couple hundred $ in "fat" that you trimmed was the quality and competence. You wanted cheap, and brother, you found it. 

    I lose a fair amount of leads on the lender side because I tell potential clients what they honestly need to hear, rather than just going along with whatever horrible plan they have concocted. Specifically, warning people when theyre getting in over their head or putting together a deal that is unlikely to pan out. No one wants to hear that, though - they want hear about how youre going to get them a no-money-down househack loan on their "primary" so they can retire next month off of the "cashflow".

    6Reply
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

      It's not just on biggerpockets. I deal with this stuff a lot with both homebuyer and investor clients on loans in two very different markets. 

      It's all over Reddit, too. You should see some of the stupidity posted in the mortgages and homebuyer subreddits. I distinctly remember some moron writing about how he worked with an agent and lender for months to get under contract, then tried to shop them both last minute after all the work was done to save a couple hundred bucks on fees - to "trim the fat" in his words. This idiot goes with the "cheapest" lender and then complains about how got "lied to" by said lender because he got caught in an old-fashioned bait and switch. As we all know, when you go with the cheapest bid and the lowest priced provider, you usually have problems. It's like, yeah, that couple hundred $ in "fat" that you trimmed was the quality and competence. You wanted cheap, and brother, you found it. 

      I lose a fair amount of leads on the lender side because I tell potential clients what they honestly need to hear, rather than just going along with whatever horrible plan they have concocted. Specifically, warning people when theyre getting in over their head or putting together a deal that is unlikely to pan out. No one wants to hear that, though - they want hear about how youre going to get them a no-money-down househack loan on their "primary" so they can retire next month off of the "cashflow".

      ya shopping for bips.. without understanding how important a good banker/broker is
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      1Reply
    • Dan H.Pro Member
      Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Patrick Roberts:

      It's not just on biggerpockets. I deal with this stuff a lot with both homebuyer and investor clients on loans in two very different markets. 

      It's all over Reddit, too. You should see some of the stupidity posted in the mortgages and homebuyer subreddits. I distinctly remember some moron writing about how he worked with an agent and lender for months to get under contract, then tried to shop them both last minute after all the work was done to save a couple hundred bucks on fees - to "trim the fat" in his words. This idiot goes with the "cheapest" lender and then complains about how got "lied to" by said lender because he got caught in an old-fashioned bait and switch. As we all know, when you go with the cheapest bid and the lowest priced provider, you usually have problems. It's like, yeah, that couple hundred $ in "fat" that you trimmed was the quality and competence. You wanted cheap, and brother, you found it. 

      I lose a fair amount of leads on the lender side because I tell potential clients what they honestly need to hear, rather than just going along with whatever horrible plan they have concocted. Specifically, warning people when theyre getting in over their head or putting together a deal that is unlikely to pan out. No one wants to hear that, though - they want hear about how youre going to get them a no-money-down househack loan on their "primary" so they can retire next month off of the "cashflow".


       >This idiot goes with the "cheapest" lender and then complains about how got "lied to" by said lender because he got caught in an old-fashioned bait and switch.

      I admit to making this mistake once.   The bait and switch lender was shocked when I did not go for the switch and started the process over.  It cost me more than rewarding the bait and switch lender but was worth it.  plus the cost ensured that I would not repeat this mistake.  

      The worse part, making my mistake worse, is that I have a good, trusted lender that multiple times has done things far beyond expectations.  I was tempted by a little savings.   So in some ways I deserved the extra costs.

      I have learned my lesson.

      3Reply
  • Charlie MacPherson
    China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    When I was a licensed Realtor, I made the STUPID decision to focus my efforts on rehabbers.

    Get a crappy commission on the crappy house.  Get another larger commission when I sell the rehabbed house.  It sounds good if you say it fast.

    My experience was that they think nothing of running you through every frozen, abandoned foreclosures on the market, in the middle of a New England winter, in hopes of finding their next deal.  

    Fun fact #1 - in the winter, abandoned homes are usually 10 - 15 degrees colder on the inside than the outside.

    Fun fact #2 - you often have no idea who or what is living inside.  I always carried a gun.

    Fun fact #3 - the rehabber to whom you have shown 8 frozen properties thinks nothing of buying their next project from another Realtor - regardless of the days chasing new foreclosures, the miles driving all over creation and the opportunity cost of not working with qualified buyers.

    Retail buyers weren't much better, but I was dumb enough to believe that those in the business would treat each other with some amount of respect.

    I turned my RE licenses (MA and ME) in 5 years ago to get into business brokering.  I told my wife that if I dropped dead that day, it would take the undertaker a week to get the smile off my face.

    6Reply
    • James Hamling
      Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Charlie MacPherson:

      When I was a licensed Realtor, I made the STUPID decision to focus my efforts on rehabbers.

      Get a crappy commission on the crappy house.  Get another larger commission when I sell the rehabbed house.  It sounds good if you say it fast.

      My experience was that they think nothing of running you through every frozen, abandoned foreclosures on the market, in the middle of a New England winter, in hopes of finding their next deal.  

      Fun fact #1 - in the winter, abandoned homes are usually 10 - 15 degrees colder on the inside than the outside.

      Fun fact #2 - you often have no idea who or what is living inside.  I always carried a gun.

      Fun fact #3 - the rehabber to whom you have shown 8 frozen properties thinks nothing of buying their next project from another Realtor - regardless of the days chasing new foreclosures, the miles driving all over creation and the opportunity cost of not working with qualified buyers.

      Retail buyers weren't much better, but I was dumb enough to believe that those in the business would treat each other with some amount of respect.

      I turned my RE licenses (MA and ME) in 5 years ago to get into business brokering.  I told my wife that if I dropped dead that day, it would take the undertaker a week to get the smile off my face.


      "I turned my RE licenses (MA and ME) in 5 years ago to get into business brokering. I told my wife that if I dropped dead that day, it would take the undertaker a week to get the smile off my face."

      Lol, quote of the week! 
      1Reply
  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    @James Wise

    agree with you, and I think it comes down to new folks thinking they're paying for an OUTCOME, when they're actually paying for a SERVICE.  as you well know, a PM can do a great job, abide by their contract, and still a tenant relationship can go bad and result in a rough turnover or an eviction.  having a bad tenant or a tenante that starts out great and then stops paying doesn't mean the PM did anything wrong.  the question to ask is... did the PM abide by the contract?  not - what was the outcome?

    with that said... i do think there is a lot of cheerleading in the forums that makes it seem like new investors will get OUTCOMES rather than SERVICES. 

    5Reply
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Nicholas L.:

      @James Wise

      agree with you, and I think it comes down to new folks thinking they're paying for an OUTCOME, when they're actually paying for a SERVICE.  as you well know, a PM can do a great job, abide by their contract, and still a tenant relationship can go bad and result in a rough turnover or an eviction.  having a bad tenant or a tenante that starts out great and then stops paying doesn't mean the PM did anything wrong.  the question to ask is... did the PM abide by the contract?  not - what was the outcome?

      with that said... i do think there is a lot of cheerleading in the forums that makes it seem like new investors will get OUTCOMES rather than SERVICES. 


      I like this  Outcome vs service. and given the fact that so many different individuals touch a rehab and then a rental its hard to control out come of all these different folks and service providers.  thinking someone can  put this all in a can and all you have to do is open the can and warm it up.  not quite reality
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    • Andrew SyriosPro Member
      Moderator
      Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Nicholas L.:

      @James Wise

      agree with you, and I think it comes down to new folks thinking they're paying for an OUTCOME, when they're actually paying for a SERVICE.  as you well know, a PM can do a great job, abide by their contract, and still a tenant relationship can go bad and result in a rough turnover or an eviction.  having a bad tenant or a tenante that starts out great and then stops paying doesn't mean the PM did anything wrong.  the question to ask is... did the PM abide by the contract?  not - what was the outcome?

      with that said... i do think there is a lot of cheerleading in the forums that makes it seem like new investors will get OUTCOMES rather than SERVICES. 


      I like this  Outcome vs service. and given the fact that so many different individuals touch a rehab and then a rental its hard to control out come of all these different folks and service providers.  thinking someone can  put this all in a can and all you have to do is open the can and warm it up.  not quite reality
      Maybe BiggerPockets should place an automatic disclaimer saying something like this for any guru-type post about being either a mentorship program "guaranteed" to make you millions or some one-stop-shop turnkey operator. Maybe also note that many of these are just outright scams. 
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      0Reply
    • Calvin Thomas
      Developer · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 812 posts · 718 votes
      1y
      Quote from @Andrew Syrios:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Nicholas L.:

      @James Wise

      agree with you, and I think it comes down to new folks thinking they're paying for an OUTCOME, when they're actually paying for a SERVICE.  as you well know, a PM can do a great job, abide by their contract, and still a tenant relationship can go bad and result in a rough turnover or an eviction.  having a bad tenant or a tenante that starts out great and then stops paying doesn't mean the PM did anything wrong.  the question to ask is... did the PM abide by the contract?  not - what was the outcome?

      with that said... i do think there is a lot of cheerleading in the forums that makes it seem like new investors will get OUTCOMES rather than SERVICES. 


      I like this  Outcome vs service. and given the fact that so many different individuals touch a rehab and then a rental its hard to control out come of all these different folks and service providers.  thinking someone can  put this all in a can and all you have to do is open the can and warm it up.  not quite reality
      Maybe BiggerPockets should place an automatic disclaimer saying something like this for any guru-type post about being either a mentorship program "guaranteed" to make you millions or some one-stop-shop turnkey operator. Maybe also note that many of these are just outright scams. 

      Here's a crazy idea.  Stop promoting them...
      0Reply
    • Andrew SyriosPro Member
      Moderator
      Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Calvin Thomas:
      Quote from @Andrew Syrios:
      Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
      Quote from @Nicholas L.:

      @James Wise

      agree with you, and I think it comes down to new folks thinking they're paying for an OUTCOME, when they're actually paying for a SERVICE.  as you well know, a PM can do a great job, abide by their contract, and still a tenant relationship can go bad and result in a rough turnover or an eviction.  having a bad tenant or a tenante that starts out great and then stops paying doesn't mean the PM did anything wrong.  the question to ask is... did the PM abide by the contract?  not - what was the outcome?

      with that said... i do think there is a lot of cheerleading in the forums that makes it seem like new investors will get OUTCOMES rather than SERVICES. 


      I like this  Outcome vs service. and given the fact that so many different individuals touch a rehab and then a rental its hard to control out come of all these different folks and service providers.  thinking someone can  put this all in a can and all you have to do is open the can and warm it up.  not quite reality
      Maybe BiggerPockets should place an automatic disclaimer saying something like this for any guru-type post about being either a mentorship program "guaranteed" to make you millions or some one-stop-shop turnkey operator. Maybe also note that many of these are just outright scams. 

      Here's a crazy idea.  Stop promoting them...

      I don't know, when it comes to guru types, they're on a spectrum. The expert-types and webinars seem pretty reasonable compared to the gurus selling multi-thousand dollar courses by advertising a lifestyle on Facebook and Youtube. Or are you talking about in the forums? 

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      0Reply
  • John Clark
    Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    And “ms. Lori” is one of how many thousands of rehabbers/flippers/brokers/mentors . . .


    BTW, how far does this “this time” caveat go?

    0Reply
  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @James Wise:

    I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

    Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

    For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

    Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

    Thoughts??????

    ________

    Max Schulman

    • Investor
    • Cincinnati, OH

    Replied about 2 hours ago

    @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

    Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

    Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

    Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

    Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

    Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

    Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

    By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

    Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

    Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

    More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

    At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

    I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

    All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

    After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

    What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

    Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

    Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

    ________

    James Wise

    #4 All Forums Contributor

    • Real Estate Broker
    • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

    Replied 16 minutes ago

    Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.


     This line here "I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit" made me laugh out loud. Bro, the market doesn't care about your profit margin and not buying a good enough deal doesn't mean you can just boot your agent after having signed a listing agreement.

    That being said, I don't really see BiggerPockets creating this sort of attitude. That seems to be more of guru thing. BP posters (at least from what I've seen) more often than not, seem pretty good at managing unrealistic expectations and telling people they need to live up to their word. At least, that's what I've seen for the most part. 


    Podcast Guest on Show #121
    4Reply
    • John Clark
      Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Andrew Syrios:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

      Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

      For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

      Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

      Thoughts??????

      ________

      Max Schulman

      • Investor
      • Cincinnati, OH

      Replied about 2 hours ago

      @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

      Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

      Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

      Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

      Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

      Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

      Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

      By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

      Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

      Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

      More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

      At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

      I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

      All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

      After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

      What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

      Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

      Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

      ________

      James Wise

      #4 All Forums Contributor

      • Real Estate Broker
      • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

      Replied 16 minutes ago

      Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.


       This line here "I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit" made me laugh out loud. Bro, the market doesn't care about your profit margin and not buying a good enough deal doesn't mean you can just boot your agent after having signed a listing agreement.

      That being said, I don't really see BiggerPockets creating this sort of attitude. That seems to be more of guru thing. BP posters (at least from what I've seen) more often than not, seem pretty good at managing unrealistic expectations and telling people they need to live up to their word. At least, that's what I've seen for the most part. 


      “Managing unrealistic expectations?” I suggest you start counting the postings to the effect of -contact me I got great leads in x” to people who are explicitly newbies who want to invest out of state for reasons that scream that they cannot handle the situation (per the odds) , This place screams shills working on commission to unload dreck.
      2Reply
    • Andrew SyriosPro Member
      Moderator
      Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @John Clark:
      Quote from @Andrew Syrios:
      Quote from @James Wise:

      I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

      Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

      For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

      Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

      Thoughts??????

      ________

      Max Schulman

      • Investor
      • Cincinnati, OH

      Replied about 2 hours ago

      @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

      Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

      Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

      Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

      Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

      Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

      Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

      By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

      Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

      Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

      More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

      At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

      I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

      All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

      After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

      What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

      Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

      Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

      ________

      James Wise

      #4 All Forums Contributor

      • Real Estate Broker
      • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

      Replied 16 minutes ago

      Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.


       This line here "I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit" made me laugh out loud. Bro, the market doesn't care about your profit margin and not buying a good enough deal doesn't mean you can just boot your agent after having signed a listing agreement.

      That being said, I don't really see BiggerPockets creating this sort of attitude. That seems to be more of guru thing. BP posters (at least from what I've seen) more often than not, seem pretty good at managing unrealistic expectations and telling people they need to live up to their word. At least, that's what I've seen for the most part. 


      “Managing unrealistic expectations?” I suggest you start counting the postings to the effect of -contact me I got great leads in x” to people who are explicitly newbies who want to invest out of state for reasons that scream that they cannot handle the situation (per the odds) , This place screams shills working on commission to unload dreck.
      Yeah, the big exception are the solicitations. I have seen a definite uptick in that kind of thing and should have mentioned it. Although I still think it's the exception rather than the rule 
      Podcast Guest on Show #121
      3Reply
  • Todd Jones
    Member since 2023 · 243 posts · 199 votes
    1y

    I've read the OP several times and there are some data points missing which causes many questions. I wish I can speak to them in person.

    Who specifically gave the $63K rehab estimate? The GC or the listing? Not running being able to run utilities to verify leaks and non-working items increases risk. They missed knowing a new roof and basement work was required in the original estimate? Did you have the GC go through the home in detail or have an inspector go through it? When did you find out about the aluminum branch wiring? Why is "insurance" in quotes, as in you question this? When you told the GC to "fix items" are you saying they missed some things they agreed upon but didn't get or they pointed out new things to you?

    If the buyer's inspection(s) found a slew of items, how was all of this missed? Did you know of these issues but tried to sell anyway? It sounds more like risk mitigation and a thorough review wasn't performed as well as it should. Hence the 8 month vs 4 month rehab.

    Also, what did you expect the agent to do? They were trying to sell a rehab home that still needed work. "Their commission is keeping you from profit?" When you calculate their commission and other seller fees, selling at $210k - closing cost - $15k credit was the better option but hindsight.

    2Reply
  • Jason C.
    Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 217 posts · 170 votes
    1y

    I will never forget a post I saw one time here that said, what is wrong with these contractors? Don’t they realize if they would lower their prices I could give them so much more business?

    Ridiculous entitlement. 

    3Reply
    • Matthew Paul
      Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Jason C.:

      I will never forget a post I saw one time here that said, what is wrong with these contractors? Don’t they realize if they would lower their prices I could give them so much more business?

      Ridiculous entitlement. 


       I  am a contractor , and I would get inexperienced "investors" ask what type of discount they get since they are "investors" ?  

      Thats simple       None 

      3Reply
    • James Wise
      OP
      Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Matthew Paul:
      Quote from @Jason C.:

      I will never forget a post I saw one time here that said, what is wrong with these contractors? Don’t they realize if they would lower their prices I could give them so much more business?

      Ridiculous entitlement. 


       I  am a contractor , and I would get inexperienced "investors" ask what type of discount they get since they are "investors" ?  

      Thats simple       None 

       lol, the answer is "since you said that, you've actually gotta pay full price plus an 18% jerk-off tax."

      4Reply
    • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
      Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Matthew Paul:
      Quote from @Jason C.:

      I will never forget a post I saw one time here that said, what is wrong with these contractors? Don’t they realize if they would lower their prices I could give them so much more business?

      Ridiculous entitlement. 


       I  am a contractor , and I would get inexperienced "investors" ask what type of discount they get since they are "investors" ?  

      Thats simple       None 

      "I am a contractor , and I would get inexperienced "investors" ask what type of discount they get since they are "investors" ?

      Thats simple None"


      No kidding. Not only that they get a surcharge as @James Wise said. They are always the biggest PITAs and expect a deal on everything. On the first project at that...

      2Reply
    • James Wise
      OP
      Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
      Quote from @Matthew Paul:
      Quote from @Jason C.:

      I will never forget a post I saw one time here that said, what is wrong with these contractors? Don’t they realize if they would lower their prices I could give them so much more business?

      Ridiculous entitlement. 


       I  am a contractor , and I would get inexperienced "investors" ask what type of discount they get since they are "investors" ?  

      Thats simple       None 

      "I am a contractor , and I would get inexperienced "investors" ask what type of discount they get since they are "investors" ?

      Thats simple None"


      No kidding. Not only that they get a surcharge as @James Wise said. They are always the biggest PITAs and expect a deal on everything. On the first project at that...


       Ain't nothing better than the Jerk-Off tax.

      0Reply
  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    @James Wise I get the frustration of working with a newbie investor. They have read or listened to real estate investing information and have tried to piece things together to do a deal and make money. But their problem is, they don't know what they don't know. And then, when they start to see their profit disappear, and then their own capital disappear, they start to panic and go into survival mode of every man for himself or I need to stop the bleeding to save myself. They don't have the context of this is just one deal and that developing and maintaining relationships will bring a better ROI then burning relationships over one deal gone bad.

    This is part of their learning curve and they are responding out of fear like most humans do in similar situations. I'm not saying it is right and clearly it is not the best way to handle the situation.

    I think in order to not get strung along and then eventually dropped without getting paid for the services provided, it is important to define roles and go over expectations with new invesetors. Especially on what to expect if things do not go the way the investor hopes. 

    This may just be a lack of experience and having unrealistic expectations rather than a fundamental flaw in personality. 

    480-206-1209Podcast Guest on Show #287
    0Reply
  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 13k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    1y

    How about the people that just post something like, "Hi, my name is xxxx and I want to be an investor".

    No questions, very little on what they plan to do - why do they expect a "participation trophy" for just showing up?

    It's my opinion that BP and ALL of us are to blame. This site is designed to get amateurs interested in real estate investing. We're all guilty of making it sound too easy at times in the pursuit of more transactions:(

    I looked at some of my own responses before posting this and have to admit many of them made everything seem too easy. Fortunately, my responses have gotten a lot more brutally honest over the years.

    Regarding newbies not even bothering to say thanks, the internet has made everything "cheap":(  Newbies join BP for free, get free advice from us, look for free RE investing business software and then wonder why their profits aren't "free"!

    Also, how about all these cheap newbies wanting every software for free? They're too brain-dead to spend a moment thinking about how a company can afford to offer their product/service for free.

    [email protected]248-209-6824
    Logical Property Management4.9462 Reviews
    WebsiteView Page
    2Reply
  • Marcus Auerbach
    Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y

    New agents find it hard to generate leads and always want to work with investors, and typically, it's a totally green "investor" - when I see that, I'm thinking good luck to both of you!! If you list a house with the roof shot, what's the plan? Hope??

    Look no further than @Russell Brazilresponse to see the difference.

    I volunteer my time on BP and with our local REIA (the RPA of Wisconsin) and frankly I do it because answering questions and explaining g things makes me a better investor and I love paying it forward. A lot of it is wasted, but you know it feels good when you made a difference for in someone's life.

    Expecting praise and upvotes seems transactional; I believe that's the wrong reason to be here, even though good people will always appreciate your time and make it a point to say thank you.

    5Reply
  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    1y

    @Jay Hinrichs

    yes great point. even in just the closing - lots of different folks involved with different responsibilities.

    a lot of folks are also coming in now and still digesting content from 2012-2019.  so they watch the Brandon Turner webinar or read his old books and they're ready for their "cash flow."  and even Brandon is saying LTRs aren't what they used to be.  not sure what to do about that...

    0Reply
    • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
      Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
      1y
      Quote from @Nicholas L.:

      @Jay Hinrichs

      yes great point. even in just the closing - lots of different folks involved with different responsibilities.

      a lot of folks are also coming in now and still digesting content from 2012-2019.  so they watch the Brandon Turner webinar or read his old books and they're ready for their "cash flow."  and even Brandon is saying LTRs aren't what they used to be.  not sure what to do about that...


      yup all those theories work or worked over time nothing is new in the landlording rehabbing game.. it evolves goes up goes down goes sideways.. but nothing has really changed in 100 years :) oh so your working on a house that is 100 years old.. just think how many times its been remodeled especially if its been a rental. The BRRR book that came out I know intentions were great and the info is real but the execution and the Risk was severely downplayed

      Podcast Guest on Show #222
      JLH Capital Partners51 Review
      WebsiteView Page
      3Reply
  • Calvin Thomas
    Developer · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 812 posts · 718 votes
    1y
    Quote from @James Wise:

    I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

    Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

    For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

    Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

    Thoughts??????

    ________

    Max Schulman

    • Investor
    • Cincinnati, OH

    Replied about 2 hours ago

    @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

    Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

    Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

    Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

    Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

    Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

    Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

    By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

    Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

    Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

    More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

    At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

    I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

    All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

    After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

    What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

    Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

    Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

    ________

    James Wise

    #4 All Forums Contributor

    • Real Estate Broker
    • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

    Replied 16 minutes ago

    Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.


    People are different today.  There's not much honor and loyalty with many in the younger crowd.  Plus, you have these fly by night schemes by Rick Martel, and the zillons of other Tiktok / Youtube "superstars" with get rich quick scams left and right.  

    Bigger Pockets doesn't help by promoting some of these know-it-alls.  Hint, they don't know much as they've never been through a real downturn. It's a recipe for disaster.
    2Reply
  • Pilla John
    Real Estate Agent · Member since 2022 · 11 posts · 2 votes
    1y

    As a student (pre- licensed GA market)... I don't know where to begin, the details are screaming in my head with simple solutions. Leading with emotions instead of logic and due diligence. My quick observation is "this was wrong before it began". 


    Just one glance at public specs and some things are just obvious to ask and double check... but I was a kid around homeowners and seen more than enough demos to understand to check , check and check again. 

    Very interesting experience to read for sure. 

    No grit or respect for the industry. :(

    0Reply
  • Peter W.
    Member since 2020 · 351 posts · 329 votes
    1y
    Quote from @James Wise:

    I've been on these Forums for well over a decade and I've got to tell ya'll that there is a serious culture problem among "investors" around here. This morning I read a reply from a new investor in another thread called FlipSystem by Antoine Martel that is the zeitgeist of this cultural problem among investors around here.

    Irrelevant to the topic of that thread being about FlipSystem and Antoine Martel, I want to focus on the set of balls and lack of shame on the poster for the way he treated the Real Estate Agent that he hired. Perfect example of entitlement, lack of accountability for his own actions, and the shameless way he had no problem hiring someone to do a job and then not paying them for said job. This kind of behavior is a problem and seems all too common among investors around here. 

    For some reason new investors think they can come on here and trash every Agent, Property Manager, Contractor, Lender, Title Company etc.... and then they can operate with impunity while stealing time and money from them. The lack of respect for people "working" as service providers in the real estate industry is nuts.  

    Below is his post in full and my original response to it............

    Thoughts??????

    ________

    Max Schulman

    • Investor
    • Cincinnati, OH

    Replied about 2 hours ago

    @Jay Hinrichs. And all. Just wanted to finally write the post I said I would after I completed my one and only retail flip through flipsystem.

    Unfortunately for me, Jay, you were right. Retail flipping homes is high risk.

    Recap - I joined FS in 2023 with intent to flip many and generate more $ to invest with. started in cleveland market with no luck and switched to cincinnati market (where I live).

    Bought off market 3/2 cape cod for $102k in cash 10/2023. Seller wouldnt turn on Utilities so couldnt check major items. Rehab estimated at $63K. ARV of $210-$215k. So it appeared to be a solid deal.

    Well, there were many costs that just piled up over the rehab timing. like, drain lines that needed clearing, a water leak, having to switch to a 3/1.5 due to the odd layout. replacing AC unit (not factored into above rehab number), replacing Furnace (not factored), replacing roof) not factored, demoing and painting basement (not factored).

    Time also played a factor as the contractor was not good. Lucky though for me I am local and could go over and check all items after complete. I had to tell him many times to fix items.

    Rehab started OCT but didn't finish until JUNE 8 mo later! GC said 4 months initially.

    By June i'm at $183k spent. I used HELOC so interest only payments continue.

    Staged and listed and got a Ton of attention. Excitement was high. Accepted offer for asking $210K. Inspection back with whole slew of items. Buyer wanted $15k in items/credits, I denied as there was so much attention I thought for sure I could find a better offer. Back on market and lots of showings but no offers until mid July (cash institutional buyer) Offer of $204K but they wanted $20K in reduction after inspection.

    Meanwhile I replaced roof (many buyers kept mentioning it so vs doing credit for same amount I just replaced) so total spend up to $188k with HELOC juice and half year tax payment.

    More showings, dropped list price to $204K , no offers until 10/2024, $204K but again wanted many repairs and the aluminum branch wiring was the exit reason due to "insurance".

    At this point I am not happy with agent (Do not recommend Howard Hannah) and I ask to release contract as I need to drop price and their commission is keeping me from profit. Well, they said sorry bud you signed a 12MO contract (lesson again learned to not ever signed an agent contract for 12mo) and they wouldnt release me so I just rode it out until contract was over.

    I list FSBO in JAN 2025 through Homecoin(great site) $179500 offer came in a few days after list for list. Inspection requests were minimal but they wanted closing costs paid so it went through and sold in FEB.

    All in $190K and came home with $165K. So $25K lesson learned. (I did not want to BRRRR or sell turnkey I just wanted out as I was afraid the bad rehab was going to cost me long run)

    After all this, If I could have advised my self before getting into flipsystem, I would have said, Do not do this. I would have said, go to your local Real estate chapter and ask the leaders who in the group is the best at what you are trying to do in your area. Connect with that person or persons and offer to pay them to learn it all or try your best to learn from the RE meetings. They might offer up the knowledge for less than you'd think. I do get it thought that the point of FS is to not have to do any of that (education, finding people, finding teams, vetting teams, etc) and just have it done for you asap.

    What do I think of Flipsystem? The education and calls were good, the team they told me to "trust" in my market was bad. Maybe it's just me and my experience in Cincinnati though as I cant say anything about the teams in other markets. I do see though, if the teams were better in my market FS would be a good program.

    Did I take on too big a project for my first retail flip? I think so, but the FS team led me to believe I could make it happen.

    Did I learn valuable lessons, absolutely. Should I have listened to @Jay Hinrichs absolutely LOL.

    ________

    James Wise

    #4 All Forums Contributor

    • Real Estate Broker
    • Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH

    Replied 16 minutes ago

    Opinions on the Flip System program aside, it's pretty wild to me that you have no shame in working that Howard Hannah Agent as hard as you did without paying them a penny even though they got you a ton of interest and multiple offers. Seems like the only reason the deal didn't close is because you were too cheap to do a proper rehab. Then you have the balls to trash them and try to weasel out of your contract with them. This type of bush league behavior needs to be called out for the trash that it is.

    Honestly, I think BiggerPockets is one of the better forums for this sort of behavior.   It's one of the few places I am willing to read politics threads for instance because generally the maturity level is high enough to learn something.

    Our education system starts off teaching this behavior if you do __X__ (e.g answer the math problems correctly) you will get __Y__.  Working a W2 works like that too.  I expect my boss to make clear what X is.  I expect my problems to be defined and scoped.  Moving from this to running your own business (which is what real estate investing is) and figuring out what X is takes a degree of maturity and change in mindset.  It's not unsurprising folks expect real estate investing to work like that as well initially.
    4Reply
  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    1y

    OP.  All of our mothers said “Don’t touch that it’s Hot.”.   We all still touched it because we didn’t know what hot is.  

    I think all new REI and all new REI contractors and support also need and have to learn that lesson on their own.

    The poster you pointed out it cost him $25,000 to do his deal.  I’m sure all the people that gave him advice, all the podcasts, help groups, books, contractors, etc told him different or expected different from him.   But he had to get burned to learn.  

    I never heard of Bigger Pockets or any type of REI tools. Just jumped in and made mistakes. As a Controller and CFO, I only had about 70% of the answer and normally would require 90% knowledge to make an investment. But I decided to jump in on our first Self Storage deal. I figured the worst case I would lose $50,000. Turned out a success. But dumb luck. Probably have made about $500,000 of errors to date. But if I had not jumped in we would not be going to Italy on Wednesday to look at homes in Montecatini. 2.7% interest rate.

    Point is we all have to mistakes both deals, relationships, approaches.  And integrity sometimes.  If we keep making mistakes, pretty soon we find other areas to invest.  

    We will never change bad behavior or judgment.  

    Monetizing BP model.  You and I are the cheap Turkey for sale at Thanksgiving.  BP forum section.  Loss leader.  This leads to book sales, podcast advertisers, etc.  

    There will always be new REI posters, one time non responders, lack of respect or comprehension. Just part of the model.

    I enjoy responding on BP because it sharpens my thinking, but more importantly it kills time.  Developing Self Storage and Country Subdivisions can take a year to 2 years.  Helps fill in the time.  Selfish on my part.  But hopefully the poster gets something.  

    4Reply
  • Tyler Palmer
    Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2025 · 23 posts · 34 votes
    1y

    @James Wise I couldn't agree with you more. I have also seen the culture issues at hand. I've seen a lot of condescending answers to peoples questions that ask for help. It's a bit ridiculous. Glad to see a fellow Ohioan call out this BS. 

    0Reply
  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    @James Wise

    Calling me out, finally.

    I kid.

    This is not abnormal or BP's fault, this is just the world-- they lead with emotions, not ration. Their demanding, yet destroy. It's a combination from seeking immediate gratification, and growing up without proper family formation.

    With that said, there's also the others-- the predators on this board that feast on "new" and "entitled" people. 

    Like I always say-- fast solutions have slow problems.

    0Reply
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