Help? My Agent never gave me consumer notice, am I entitled to keep the commission?

Buying & Selling Real Estate
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Help? My Agent never gave me consumer notice, am I entitled to keep the commission?

Douglas Gratz
Member since 2019 · 69 posts · 12 votes

Hello friends,

I am selling a piece of land, its under agreement and closing is in a few days. I have been wanted to fire my agent for a long while but I had no grounds, I just found out he never gave me the consumer notice when we signed out listing agreement.

Am I entitled to keep the commission?

If so how do I go about it? I am from PA

Thanks

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
3y

Did you sign a contract stating you would pay them X dollars for the sale of the property? If so, then you are paying X dollars for the sale of the property.

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Douglas Gratz:

    Hello friends,

    I am selling a piece of land, its under agreement and closing is in a few days. I have been wanted to fire my agent for a long while but I had no grounds, I just found out he never gave me the consumer notice when we signed out listing agreement.

    Am I entitled to keep the commission?

    If so how do I go about it? I am from PA

    Thanks

    Did he bring the buyer? If so, it's a non issue. Besides, he will just say he gave it to you and you won't produce it. Prove a negative in court. Tough to do. Yes, you'd probably be sued for the commission.
    4Reply
  • Douglas Gratz
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 69 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Douglas Gratz:

    Hello friends,

    I am selling a piece of land, its under agreement and closing is in a few days. I have been wanted to fire my agent for a long while but I had no grounds, I just found out he never gave me the consumer notice when we signed out listing agreement.

    Am I entitled to keep the commission?

    If so how do I go about it? I am from PA

    Thanks

    Did he bring the buyer? If so, it's a non issue. Besides, he will just say he gave it to you and you won't produce it. Prove a negative in court. Tough to do. Yes, you'd probably be sued for the commission.
    It is easy to prove he use's dot loop for everything, 2 days before closing he sends me the notice, in this case I do not have to pay commission in PA. If I have solid proof does you opinion on the matter change? My end goal is to keep the 40K usually entitled to the agent and yes he brought the buyer however and in text tried to force me to sign a due diligence extension, like his action for lack of a better word, clearly show is dishonesty as well as this issue with the notice
    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Douglas Gratz:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Douglas Gratz:

    Hello friends,

    I am selling a piece of land, its under agreement and closing is in a few days. I have been wanted to fire my agent for a long while but I had no grounds, I just found out he never gave me the consumer notice when we signed out listing agreement.

    Am I entitled to keep the commission?

    If so how do I go about it? I am from PA

    Thanks

    Did he bring the buyer? If so, it's a non issue. Besides, he will just say he gave it to you and you won't produce it. Prove a negative in court. Tough to do. Yes, you'd probably be sued for the commission.
    It is easy to prove he use's dot loop for everything, 2 days before closing he sends me the notice, in this case I do not have to pay commission in PA. If I have solid proof does you opinion on the matter change? My end goal is to keep the 40K usually entitled to the agent and yes he brought the buyer however and in text tried to force me to sign a due diligence extension, like his action for lack of a better word, clearly show is dishonesty as well as this issue with the notice

    I don't know the laws in PA but it's likely the agent would fight you. In my experience, judges are reluctant to allow attorney's fees in a court win. I can't guess what is best in this situation, but I'd count the cost and meet with a couple of different attorneys before I started a lawsuit.


    1Reply
  • Wayne Brooks
    Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y

    @Douglas Gratz Not likely is it grounds to void the listing contract.

    Is this considered commercial property?
    Are you as the seller, an entity or an individual?

    0Reply
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    3y

    Did you sign a contract stating you would pay them X dollars for the sale of the property? If so, then you are paying X dollars for the sale of the property.

    [email protected]301-893-4635Podcast Guest on Show #192
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    12Reply
  • Douglas Gratz
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 69 posts · 12 votes
    3y

    @Russell Brazil the listing agreement states 4 1/2%

    0Reply
  • Douglas Gratz
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 69 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Wayne Brooks:

    @Douglas Gratz Not likely is it grounds to void the listing contract.

    Is this considered commercial property?
    Are you as the seller, an entity or an individual?

    My company owns the land and the listing agreement only states my name, so I don’t even know if that’s void on that alone not anyway we have an agreement of sale closing in two days for $840,000 so you can imagine the commission I would like to keep. He’s been a scumbag the hallway and I have proof of him passively forcing me to sign stuff.
    0Reply
  • Steve K.
    Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    The consumer notice is not a contract, it's just to explain the different types of agency relationships to the public and is completely separate from your listing contract and sales contracts. As a real estate professional yourself, you probably already knew about the various types of agency relationships prior to this transaction with or without receiving the notice, and when you signed the listing agreement, the type of agency relationship that both parties agreed to was established. I don't know what is causing you to not want the agent representing you to get their commission they earned finding a buyer and handling the sale, but this doesn't seem like a valid way to achieve that goal in my humble non-lawyer opinion.  

    8Reply
  • Dan H.Pro Member
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    3y

    If you wanted to fire him, why didn’t you fire him?  

    After he supplied the buyer, he has finished his task.  Whether you legally can withhold commission or not, you should pay his commission (which he may be splitting with buyers agent).

    RE is not a large community.  Ethics helps in relationships. 

    I once agreed to pay bird dog $15k finders fee but bird dog had to do more work than he had likely expected.  I paid him $20k.  Undeknowst to me at the time, seller also had agreed on a fee and decided to stiff the bird dog.  I still have good relationship with bird dog.  seller does not and who knows how many people bird dog told about seller stiffing him. 

    Good luck

    7Reply
  • Wayne Brooks
    Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Douglas Gratz:
    Quote from @Wayne Brooks:

    @Douglas Gratz Not likely is it grounds to void the listing contract.

    Is this considered commercial property?
    Are you as the seller, an entity or an individual?

    My company owns the land and the listing agreement only states my name, so I don’t even know if that’s void on that alone not anyway we have an agreement of sale closing in two days for $840,000 so you can imagine the commission I would like to keep. He’s been a scumbag the hallway and I have proof of him passively forcing me to sign stuff.
    Extending a due diligence period is common and doesn’t indicate anything unethical.  A quick google search indicates there are fines for an agent not providing the Notice, but this wouldn’t affect the enforceability of the listing contract. Transactions involving a commercial property owned by an entity are exempt from the Notice requirement.
    3Reply
  • Obed Calixte
    Real Estate Agent · St Petersburg, FL · Member since 2019 · 321 posts · 182 votes
    3y

    Dispute resolution, seller/agent obligations and agency relationship are built into the listing agreement in my area. Your answers about dispute resolution may be in the listing agreement.

    2Reply
  • Bob S.
    Real Estate Consultant · Cleveland · Member since 2020 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Douglas Gratz:

    Hello friends,

    I am selling a piece of land, its under agreement and closing is in a few days. I have been wanted to fire my agent for a long while but I had no grounds, I just found out he never gave me the consumer notice when we signed out listing agreement.

    Am I entitled to keep the commission?

    If so how do I go about it? I am from PA

    ThankS

    So he sold it for you and you do not want to pay him over a BS doc, glad you're not my client.

    Good luck 

    8Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y

    You agreed to pay him to find you a buyer. He found you a buyer from whom you will make a lot of money. Pay the agent his fee. It's not worth it to try and find a way out over a small detail like that, it's not right either. It's a damn Consumer Notice.

    10Reply
  • Caroline Gerardo
    Lender · Washington DC · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    Land takes a long time to sell and lots of work. Since you vest in a business entity and it's raw land residential real estate rules are not the same as commercial (even though is zoned residential The disclosure you mention doesn't need to be signed and disclosures are often re-provided at closing to cover all bases, it's a he said she said- he will say he gave it to you twice.) 

    Attorney fees you will pay up front perhaps $100000. If agent is part of corporate brand they have in house almost free. 

    You have mediation in the listing agreement? It's going to be an agent who may not see you in the light you wish to be cast. 

    If goes to jury trial you need every piece of paper in order and it will come down to who they like better, (really all in the emoticons not the facts because contract law is boring to a jury). 

    PA law is vague as too what is commercial even if you intended to build residential units on the vacant land.

    The term "commercial property" means (1) any building, structure or facility, or portion thereof, which is used, occupied or is intended, arranged or designed to be used or occupied for the purpose of operating a business, an office, a manufactory or any public accommodation; and (2) any vacant land offered for sale, lease or held for the purpose of constructing or locating thereon any such building, structure, facility, business concern or public accommodation.

    Will your Dad be part of this lawsuit? The names of the partners get exposed, there's that as well.

    My suggestion is to bend $5000 concession out of him, close the deal, and let it flow down the Schuylkill River.

    1Reply
  • Douglas Gratz
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 69 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    You agreed to pay him to find you a buyer. He found you a buyer from whom you will make a lot of money. Pay the agent his fee. It's not worth it to try and find a way out over a small detail like that, it's not right either. It's a damn Consumer Notice.


     I would agree with you , but if i showed you our correspondence and the stufff he tried to pull you might agree with me

    0Reply
  • Douglas Gratz
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 69 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Caroline Gerardo:

    Land takes a long time to sell and lots of work. Since you vest in a business entity and it's raw land residential real estate rules are not the same as commercial (even though is zoned residential The disclosure you mention doesn't need to be signed and disclosures are often re-provided at closing to cover all bases, it's a he said she said- he will say he gave it to you twice.) 

    Attorney fees you will pay up front perhaps $100000. If agent is part of corporate brand they have in house almost free. 

    You have mediation in the listing agreement? It's going to be an agent who may not see you in the light you wish to be cast. 

    If goes to jury trial you need every piece of paper in order and it will come down to who they like better, (really all in the emoticons not the facts because contract law is boring to a jury). 

    PA law is vague as too what is commercial even if you intended to build residential units on the vacant land.

    The term "commercial property" means (1) any building, structure or facility, or portion thereof, which is used, occupied or is intended, arranged or designed to be used or occupied for the purpose of operating a business, an office, a manufactory or any public accommodation; and (2) any vacant land offered for sale, lease or held for the purpose of constructing or locating thereon any such building, structure, facility, business concern or public accommodation.

    Will your Dad be part of this lawsuit? The names of the partners get exposed, there's that as well.

    My suggestion is to bend $5000 concession out of him, close the deal, and let it flow down the Schuylkill River.


     yeah thats probably a good idea, i wanted to give him 10k of it all because he did do work, but I am finding out he has been working all angles of this, once my buyer backed out bc I could not get funding, he was working on getting her back under the pretense of another developer and builder and this was before I asked him to sell the land...There is to much to type, but I just dont like snakes, its a principal thing.

    0Reply
  • Douglas Gratz
    OP
    Member since 2019 · 69 posts · 12 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Dan H.:

    If you wanted to fire him, why didn’t you fire him?  

    After he supplied the buyer, he has finished his task.  Whether you legally can withhold commission or not, you should pay his commission (which he may be splitting with buyers agent).

    RE is not a large community.  Ethics helps in relationships. 

    I once agreed to pay bird dog $15k finders fee but bird dog had to do more work than he had likely expected.  I paid him $20k.  Undeknowst to me at the time, seller also had agreed on a fee and decided to stiff the bird dog.  I still have good relationship with bird dog.  seller does not and who knows how many people bird dog told about seller stiffing him. 

    Good luck


     hes the agent on both sides of this thing, which wasnt disclosed until I got the AOS, and it was only disclosed because its in the AOS not because he told me. He is trying to sell the land then be the agent on selling the homes, which is fine however he lied on multiple occasions along with alot of unethical dealings.

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Douglas Gratz:
    Quote from @Dan H.:

    If you wanted to fire him, why didn’t you fire him?  

    After he supplied the buyer, he has finished his task.  Whether you legally can withhold commission or not, you should pay his commission (which he may be splitting with buyers agent).

    RE is not a large community.  Ethics helps in relationships. 

    I once agreed to pay bird dog $15k finders fee but bird dog had to do more work than he had likely expected.  I paid him $20k.  Undeknowst to me at the time, seller also had agreed on a fee and decided to stiff the bird dog.  I still have good relationship with bird dog.  seller does not and who knows how many people bird dog told about seller stiffing him. 

    Good luck


     hes the agent on both sides of this thing, which wasnt disclosed until I got the AOS, and it was only disclosed because its in the AOS not because he told me. He is trying to sell the land then be the agent on selling the homes, which is fine however he lied on multiple occasions along with alot of unethical dealings.


    this is SOP for a dirt guy who is bringing dirt to builders you do that so you get the list backs.. Also if he has put a demand into escrow ( which i am sure he did) you wont close this transaction at that title company until you get a resolution.. you would have to cancel it there and start with another title company.
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    2Reply
  • Tim Miller
    Rental Property Investor · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 383 posts · 382 votes
    3y

    @Douglas Gratz Everyone is be honest and nice. I'll just put it straight out there. Go ahead and keep the commission. Then the agent and must likely the firm he works for will sue you. Once that happens and it doesn't manner if you win or lose. No agent in a 100 miles is going to for and/or with you ever again. You'll only get the newbie's that don't know what you did. Good luck.

    6Reply
  • Richie Hutchinson
    Member since 2023 · 4 posts · 1 vote
    3y
    Quote from @Douglas Gratz:

    Hello friends,

    Can you do this is one question.  Should you do this is another.  I am having a hard time understanding why you would not pay the agent their commission if they brought the buyer?  He ultimately provided the service you signed up for.  It seems to me that denying comission after the sale has been completed is not the most honorable of practices.  It may be legal, but it doesn't seem ethical.   

    If the agent does not provide good service, quit using them, don't recommend them to others, and move on.  Ultimately it sounds like they provided the services you hired them for and in return should be compensated. fairly.

    PS:  There may be many more details to this situation that I am not seeing in your question.  We all know these scenarios are complex.  

    I am selling a piece of land, its under agreement and closing is in a few days. I have been wanted to fire my agent for a long while but I had no grounds, I just found out he never gave me the consumer notice when we signed out listing agreement.

    Am I entitled to keep the commission?

    If so how do I go about it? I am from PA

    Thanks

    0Reply
  • Luka Milicevic
    Real Estate Agent · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    3y

    I'm not entirely sure on what the problem is here.

    You're about to sell the property that your agent found a buyer for, but you want to keep the commission because your agent was an A hole? 

    4Reply
  • Joe S.Pro Member
    Investor · San Antonio · Member since 2020 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    I have had one particular agent, bring me a buyer multiple times on properties that I did not even officially have listed, because he knew he would get his commission.

    Just saying….

    2Reply
  • Samuel Jolicoeur
    Real Estate Agent · Punta Gorda, FL · Member since 2022 · 29 posts · 22 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    You agreed to pay him to find you a buyer. He found you a buyer from whom you will make a lot of money. Pay the agent his fee. It's not worth it to try and find a way out over a small detail like that, it's not right either. It's a damn Consumer Notice.

    Couldn’t agree more. Like him or not the person did his job. He should be paid for it.
    3Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Luka Milicevic:

    I'm not entirely sure on what the problem is here.

    You're about to sell the property that your agent found a buyer for, but you want to keep the commission because your agent was an A hole? 


     Sounds pretty accurate.....

    0Reply
  • Amy McLeod
    Member since 2020 · 1 post · 2 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Douglas Gratz:

    Hello friends,

    I am selling a piece of land, its under agreement and closing is in a few days. I have been wanted to fire my agent for a long while but I had no grounds, I just found out he never gave me the consumer notice when we signed out listing agreement.

    Am I entitled to keep the commission?

    If so how do I go about it? I am from PA

    Thanks


     If you wanted to fire him long ago - then you should have.  Thinking you should keep the commission, after he's brought you a Buyer only makes you look bad - not him.  And - in my area, failure to provide Agency Disclosure would be an educational opportunity for our regulatory agency in the least, and a fine at best.  Commission would never be a factor.

    2Reply
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