Help Me Understand the Fed's Most Recent Rate Hike?

Help Me Understand the Fed's Most Recent Rate Hike?

Scott TrenchPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes

Up until now, I've been cheering the Fed on, grateful that Jerome Powell took his lumps for the way too easy money policies in late 2021, and cranked hard on interest rates to beat inflation. I think in 2022, this Federal Reserve acted more responsibly in the long-term interests of our country than any other central bank in the world, and made the hard, right choices, to preserve the dollar's status as the world's reserve currency for perhaps a few more decades at least. They certainly proved that they are, if not the best, then perhaps the "least bad" central bank in the world in 2022, in my mind. (And yes, I know that "best" and "least bad" is the same thing...)

But, I don't understand why they proceeded with the hike yesterday, or at least didn't slow down. 

Prices increased by 0.1% from October to November. If we carry that forward linearly over the next 12 months, that will lead to a ~1.2% increase in prices. This is less inflation than the Fed's 2% target. 

Now, inflation compared to last year is still up 7.1%. But, that's not because prices are currently going up too fast. That's because prices already did go up and we are now at a higher baseline. High inflation in late 2021 and early 2022 made prices 6,7,8,9% higher. We can't compare prices to a year ago when determining monetary policy. We have to examine where we are and where we will be. That prices are 7.1% higher than they were a year ago is sunk cost. It's over. Done. The Fed's job going forward needs to be to ensure that inflation over the next 12 months remains at ~2%. 

And right now, we are trending below that inflation target.

Inflation, unless the Fed is seeing something I'm not, is essentially over. It appears to me that all we have to do is sit and wait 12 months, watching things, and we are likely to see prices right at the 2% level that we target, maybe below.  

Why then, are we still raising rates? Raising rates increases the likelihood of deflation (if you thought inflation was bad, wait until we see deflation!) if the CPI data is to be believed. There are a whole bunch of reasons to believe that we are heading for a worsening recession (or the start of a recession - usage of the word "recession" to describe the current climate depends on your political affiliation here in 2022 - I welcome all viewpoints on this!) in 2023, with layoffs, a new higher baseline of rates, etc. On top of that, we have seen energy prices come way back down to earth, we are seeing housing prices falling, and a large percentage of inflation WAS tied up in supply chain issues, which are continuing to resolve. 

I think the risk now is not inflation continuing to loom, but rather a severe overcorrection and needless worsening of the economy and growth. Up until now, I thought I understood the Fed's motivations, but it appears I miscalculated. Rather than trying to beat inflation and guide us towards a 2% inflation rate artfully, they appear ready to bulldoze their way to... deflation? 

Anything I'm missing here or do other folks feel the same way?

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Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
3y

These are the same people that thought inflation was transitory.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    3y

    These are the same people that thought inflation was transitory.

  • Rental Property Investor · RVA · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    Here is the Fed's statement: https://www.federalreserve.gov...

    My general opinion is that there is still an enormous amount of liquidity on the sidelines and the Fed is going to continue to hike until that liquidity works its way out. The Fed's Reverse Repo operations are still over $2 Trillion dollars, a number that was totally unheard of pre-Covid: https://www.newyorkfed.org/mar...

  • Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    It's all deja vu - Fed style.  The NYTimes' article - 

    Bad News From the Fed? We’ve Been Here Before

    is the Fed playbook (ttps://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/22/bus...).  As a former wealth banker, it is nothing new and it's all just psychological and financial warfare on consumer spending.  Inflation at 7.1% seems manageable compared to over 11% and rising in the 1980s.  It's all about making it so painful for the consumer that we will stop buying, forcing prices to drop - and returning inflation to 2% where the Fed deems necessary - if not downrigh critical - to return peace to all things monetary.  

    But it isn't the Fed we're worried about in Florida.  Just is what it is stuff.  The real threat to our Real Estate Industry is the insurance industry.  Long in crisis and short on solutions, premiums are the highest in the nation here and increasing while insurers are becoming insolvent on a routine and regular basis.  Interest rates we can tolerate.  No insurance is a whole other swamp of not good.

    What to do?  I'm thinking about what SEALs are taught about shark encounters:  Don't swim away.  Don't play dead. You got a mission to fulfill, a life to live.  What you do is take your best shot and hit that sucker in the snout with all your might - and it will simply swim away.  I believe...who am I to argue survival with a SEAL?!!!  Gotta cowboy up in challenging times.  Back to making deals for me...

    Thanks for raising such an important issue. 

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    3y

    @Scott Trench

    Most policy is based off core inflation and not cpi.

    When inflation is low and stable, monthly core inflation is roughly 0.2%, on average, said Andrew Hunter, senior U.S. economist at Capital Economics.

    Core CPI rose 0.2% in November, after a 0.3% reading in October — down significantly from 0.6% in September and August.

    "One month doesn't make a trend, or even two months, but the October and November readings are clearly a big step in the right direction," Hunter said.

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    You can't carry it forward linearly, that's where the estimation is off. The Fed is also always behind the curve, by nature of how they are situated. If they didn't do this hike, the market would've reacted the exact way they wouldn't have wanted.

    What they need to do is sit on it and not possibly do the massive jump and cut like they are entertaining.

  • Real Estate Agent · Washington DC · Member since 2016 · 847 posts · 654 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    Up until now, I've been cheering the Fed on, grateful that Jerome Powell took his lumps for the way too easy money policies in late 2021, and cranked hard on interest rates to beat inflation. I think in 2022, this Federal Reserve acted more responsibly in the long-term interests of our country than any other central bank in the world, and made the hard, right choices, to preserve the dollar's status as the world's reserve currency for perhaps a few more decades at least. They certainly proved that they are, if not the best, then perhaps the "least bad" central bank in the world in 2022, in my mind. (And yes, I know that "best" and "least bad" is the same thing...)

    But, I don't understand why they proceeded with the hike yesterday, or at least didn't slow down. 

    Prices increased by 0.1% from October to November. If we carry that forward linearly over the next 12 months, that will lead to a ~1.2% increase in prices. This is less inflation than the Fed's 2% target. 

    Now, inflation compared to last year is still up 7.1%. But, that's not because prices are currently going up too fast. That's because prices already did go up and we are now at a higher baseline. High inflation in late 2021 and early 2022 made prices 6,7,8,9% higher. We can't compare prices to a year ago when determining monetary policy. We have to examine where we are and where we will be. That prices are 7.1% higher than they were a year ago is sunk cost. It's over. Done. The Fed's job going forward needs to be to ensure that inflation over the next 12 months remains at ~2%. 

    And right now, we are trending below that inflation target.

    Inflation, unless the Fed is seeing something I'm not, is essentially over. It appears to me that all we have to do is sit and wait 12 months, watching things, and we are likely to see prices right at the 2% level that we target, maybe below.  

    Why then, are we still raising rates? Raising rates increases the likelihood of deflation (if you thought inflation was bad, wait until we see deflation!) if the CPI data is to be believed. There are a whole bunch of reasons to believe that we are heading for a worsening recession (or the start of a recession - usage of the word "recession" to describe the current climate depends on your political affiliation here in 2022 - I welcome all viewpoints on this!) in 2023, with layoffs, a new higher baseline of rates, etc. On top of that, we have seen energy prices come way back down to earth, we are seeing housing prices falling, and a large percentage of inflation WAS tied up in supply chain issues, which are continuing to resolve. 

    I think the risk now is not inflation continuing to loom, but rather a severe overcorrection and needless worsening of the economy and growth. Up until now, I thought I understood the Fed's motivations, but it appears I miscalculated. Rather than trying to beat inflation and guide us towards a 2% inflation rate artfully, they appear ready to bulldoze their way to... deflation? 

    Anything I'm missing here or do other folks feel the same way?

    A lot of the Fed’s power comes not from the rates but from the fear of rate hikes, so the Fed pivoting would have sent the market way up bonds way down and ran the risk of inflation retrenching. Also as technical matter the markets had already priced in a terminal rate of 4.8 so anything less than that would for the markets, mortgages etc actually be a rate cut because everything was already priced against that 4.8 number.

  • Laveen, AZ · Member since 2016 · 584 posts · 528 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    Up until now, I've been cheering the Fed on, grateful that Jerome Powell took his lumps for the way too easy money policies in late 2021, and cranked hard on interest rates to beat inflation. I think in 2022, this Federal Reserve acted more responsibly in the long-term interests of our country than any other central bank in the world, and made the hard, right choices, to preserve the dollar's status as the world's reserve currency for perhaps a few more decades at least. They certainly proved that they are, if not the best, then perhaps the "least bad" central bank in the world in 2022, in my mind. (And yes, I know that "best" and "least bad" is the same thing...)

    But, I don't understand why they proceeded with the hike yesterday, or at least didn't slow down. 

    Prices increased by 0.1% from October to November. If we carry that forward linearly over the next 12 months, that will lead to a ~1.2% increase in prices. This is less inflation than the Fed's 2% target. 

    Now, inflation compared to last year is still up 7.1%. But, that's not because prices are currently going up too fast. That's because prices already did go up and we are now at a higher baseline. High inflation in late 2021 and early 2022 made prices 6,7,8,9% higher. We can't compare prices to a year ago when determining monetary policy. We have to examine where we are and where we will be. That prices are 7.1% higher than they were a year ago is sunk cost. It's over. Done. The Fed's job going forward needs to be to ensure that inflation over the next 12 months remains at ~2%. 

    And right now, we are trending below that inflation target.

    Inflation, unless the Fed is seeing something I'm not, is essentially over. It appears to me that all we have to do is sit and wait 12 months, watching things, and we are likely to see prices right at the 2% level that we target, maybe below.  

    Why then, are we still raising rates? Raising rates increases the likelihood of deflation (if you thought inflation was bad, wait until we see deflation!) if the CPI data is to be believed. There are a whole bunch of reasons to believe that we are heading for a worsening recession (or the start of a recession - usage of the word "recession" to describe the current climate depends on your political affiliation here in 2022 - I welcome all viewpoints on this!) in 2023, with layoffs, a new higher baseline of rates, etc. On top of that, we have seen energy prices come way back down to earth, we are seeing housing prices falling, and a large percentage of inflation WAS tied up in supply chain issues, which are continuing to resolve. 

    I think the risk now is not inflation continuing to loom, but rather a severe overcorrection and needless worsening of the economy and growth. Up until now, I thought I understood the Fed's motivations, but it appears I miscalculated. Rather than trying to beat inflation and guide us towards a 2% inflation rate artfully, they appear ready to bulldoze their way to... deflation? 

    Anything I'm missing here or do other folks feel the same way?


     I'd like to ask anyone's opinion to this question in regards to the OP. 

    How are institutional real estate companies doing these days, compared to how they do after a recovering recession?

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    3y

    I'm not a macroeconomist. But I have watched his last half dozen presentations, the entire hour typically, start to finish. 

    I'm neither a lover nor a hater of JPOW, I will try to summarize fairly, and make it clear where it's my opinion/notes/observations/commentary being interjected

    Some notes (my commentary in parenthesis):

    - The rate hikes have slowed. 0.5% instead of the "normal" 0.75%. (Consumer-facing mortgage rates have been trending down for a month, in anticipation of this)

    - There's substantial lag time between when the Fed changes that benchmark rate, and the effects are fully felt in the economy in a way that shows up in the numbers he and his pals look at. So the current numbers aren't a reflection of the last 0.75% rate hike, they are a reflection of several rate hikes ago, like back in the spring when this all started. This part is important, so I'll say it again: when JPOW looks at the latest inflation numbers, he's not attributing it to the latest rate hikes, he's attributing it to 3 or 4 rate hikes ago. 

    - JPOW says that the historical record spells out that the consequences of backing off too early are greater than the consequences of continuing with the rate hikes a little too long. Worth noting, he came of age and many of his "core memories" (if you know, you know :P), forever shaping his world view, would have coalesced in the early 1980s when he was working in finance and watching stagflation/"Reaganomics" play out in real time. 

    - Together, that means that when JPOW sees inflation/economic data he approves of, he will likely CONTINUE to raise rates several times more, just to hammer it home, and be sure that they've truly broken the back of inflation. 

    - He holds three opinions/beliefs that defy "common" understandings. 

    1) Current inflation is NOT being driven by all the money printing and/or gov't spending in 2020/2021, in the way that "common wisdom" holds money printing as leading to inflation. It's being driven by a) supply chain disruptions, which are largely resolving themselves, and b) a labor shortage of 4m people (4 MILLION less workers than there "should" be). That 4m is mostly excess retirements (the "great resignation" isn't millenials quitting jobs to sit at home and spend welfare money on avocado toast, it's the 55 year olds that retired in 2020, rather than working another 5-7 years), followed by (these two are tied) a staggering decline in net (legal) immigration to the United States, and COVID deaths. All of this since March 2020, and relative to looking at 2015-2019 numbers and just projecting forward. The Fed's job isn't to tell congress what to do, but he did in fact at Brookings (2 press conferences ago, the most recent one being at the Fed) call on Congress to increase "labor force participation," which either means bringing people back from the dead, forcing grandma out of retirement, or allowing for more (legal) immigration. 

    2) In particular, he feels that wage growth is driving current inflation. Grocery inflation is 10% and overall inflation 7%. So most people think pay raises "should eventually" track with some number around 7%, but he says restrictive policy will be needed until wage gains are "consistent with" 2% inflation. He's been asked what "consistent with" means, and refuses to give a number, but it's clearly a number closer to 2% than to 10% or 7%, from what he has said (stuff like "well you have to adjust it from 2% a little bit to account for various factors"). He's hammered home that there are 1.7 job openings for every job seeker, time and time again, which signals to him that he has PLENTY of leeway to keep increasing rates (the normal "check" on how far you can raise rates is that it tends to increase unemployment, but he's got PLENTY of wiggle room to play with there, in his view). He's projecting unemployment to increase from mid 3s to high 4s, which represents 1.3m to 1.5m job losses (he sticks to the % unemployment rate, but journalists and myself keep multiplying by labor force participation rate to express it as a number of job losses - he has never "corrected" a journalist for asserting target job losses to be in the 1.3m to 1.5m range, so both he and the journalists agree on the number, JPOW simply chooses to use unemployment %, while journos use unemployed persons in the millions rather than a %). The balance of power in the labor market, currently, favors workers too much, and it needs to be shifted in favor of employers

    3) Placeholder. I can't remember what I was going to say here. 

    Relevant to this community, he stated at his last meeting that into 2023, "housing services inflation" (aka rent) will continue to be high, into 2023, and then slow down (due to typical leases being 1 year, there's more lag time here than in other areas of measured inflation). So whatever your most recent % rent increase have been, don't project being able to get away with that in 2024, 2025, etc.

    He also has said, MANY times, that the Fed's goal is "below trend economic growth" for the United Stats, 0.5% GDP growth next year being a number he tossed around at the latest press conference. 

    Phew. I've been doing a tiktok series that lots of people seem to like (getting 1m views on a video, on tiktok of all platforms, while being a balding middle aged man staring at a camera and talking about central bank rate policy, is not a small feat!), far more in depth than this post. @californiamortgage. The most common question I've seen in comments was "why can't we have a period of 'catch up' wage growth, to keep pace with inflation," which is did answer recently when asked by a journalist. 

    I personally have not been happy with how CNN, etc, have been covering his press conferences and presentations. Everything above is directly from his mouth in public comments, but you see basically NONE of it in the media!

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    @Scott Trench

    I'll be that guy and responded to your question with a question: why does it matter? 

    Do you have rate swap that's moving out of the money and if it doesn't hit you'll lose your house? Do you plan on a career change and have aspirations of becoming the Fed chairman one day and want to do a decision case on this? 

    Of course I am being facetious with those questions.

    For 99% of the population the why behind the rate hikes and their magnitude hold little to no consequence. What will be will be. They happened and we all have to deal with the consequence, good bad and ugly. Knowing why a hurricane barrels toward the FL coast does little for the residence (not implying that the rate hikes are positive or negative btw). 

    I'd be willing to be that the average BP user has a much higher baseline need for cognition than average, but in general I think scratching that mental itch focusing questions that are both knowable and important yields better outcomes and sadly, I think your questions strikes out on both those criteria. 

    For me, the question, what's the odds that we experience inflation over 4% in 2023 and the corollary, what are the odds we see deflation at higher than 2-4% in 2023,  to be a better use of time. They lead to the follow on analysis, what is inflation's impact on your life/portfolio/goals; what's deflation's impact on your life/portfolio/goals, which allows us the potential to take some action based on the anlysis. 

  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    3y

    @Chris Mason Thank you for the very insightful post! This is very helpful! 

    @Bill F. I think it boils down to the desire to understand "why". 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y

    @Scott Trench The Fed is not here to help the American people....they have an agenda set by others. Therefore what they do may not make sense to regular folks like us. It's interesting to track their actions and see how we can gain from them, but other than that, you can just drive yourself nuts trying to figure them out.

    I also don't think it's wise to assume that they are the gurus of finance that they pretend to be. They largely follow the script - what worked before should work today. IMHO, a good number of people on the forums have a better handle on what's really going on.....

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    Up until now, I've been cheering the Fed on, grateful that Jerome Powell took his lumps for the way too easy money policies in late 2021, and cranked hard on interest rates to beat inflation. I think in 2022, this Federal Reserve acted more responsibly in the long-term interests of our country than any other central bank in the world, and made the hard, right choices, to preserve the dollar's status as the world's reserve currency for perhaps a few more decades at least. They certainly proved that they are, if not the best, then perhaps the "least bad" central bank in the world in 2022, in my mind. (And yes, I know that "best" and "least bad" is the same thing...)

    But, I don't understand why they proceeded with the hike yesterday, or at least didn't slow down. 

    Prices increased by 0.1% from October to November. If we carry that forward linearly over the next 12 months, that will lead to a ~1.2% increase in prices. This is less inflation than the Fed's 2% target. 

    Now, inflation compared to last year is still up 7.1%. But, that's not because prices are currently going up too fast. That's because prices already did go up and we are now at a higher baseline. High inflation in late 2021 and early 2022 made prices 6,7,8,9% higher. We can't compare prices to a year ago when determining monetary policy. We have to examine where we are and where we will be. That prices are 7.1% higher than they were a year ago is sunk cost. It's over. Done. The Fed's job going forward needs to be to ensure that inflation over the next 12 months remains at ~2%. 

    And right now, we are trending below that inflation target.

    Inflation, unless the Fed is seeing something I'm not, is essentially over. It appears to me that all we have to do is sit and wait 12 months, watching things, and we are likely to see prices right at the 2% level that we target, maybe below.  

    Why then, are we still raising rates? Raising rates increases the likelihood of deflation (if you thought inflation was bad, wait until we see deflation!) if the CPI data is to be believed. There are a whole bunch of reasons to believe that we are heading for a worsening recession (or the start of a recession - usage of the word "recession" to describe the current climate depends on your political affiliation here in 2022 - I welcome all viewpoints on this!) in 2023, with layoffs, a new higher baseline of rates, etc. On top of that, we have seen energy prices come way back down to earth, we are seeing housing prices falling, and a large percentage of inflation WAS tied up in supply chain issues, which are continuing to resolve. 

    I think the risk now is not inflation continuing to loom, but rather a severe overcorrection and needless worsening of the economy and growth. Up until now, I thought I understood the Fed's motivations, but it appears I miscalculated. Rather than trying to beat inflation and guide us towards a 2% inflation rate artfully, they appear ready to bulldoze their way to... deflation? 

    Anything I'm missing here or do other folks feel the same way?


    It's actually pretty simple and comes from https://www.federalreservehist...

    "Founded by an act of Congress in 1913, the Federal Reserve System was established with several goals in mind. Perhaps most important was to make the American banking system more stable. Banking panics—events characterized by widespread bank runs and payments suspensions and, to a degree, outright bank failures—had occurred often throughout the 19th century. Such panics were widely blamed on the nation’s “inelastic currency.”

    People used to put $100 in their account and expect to be able to draw all of it out when they wanted to. That is not the case now.

    Bankers employ something called "fractional reserve policy". That means they can make loans and have only 10% of the money available in their vaults. The other 90% is simply added to the ledger as numbers. It's a method of creating "money" that didn't exist before. That and "the velocity of money" are what make banker's a lot of profit. When either falls out of balance, the Fed intervenes to save them because it just wouldn't do to have banks lose money for their malfeasance. The Fed is run by bankers. 

    The Federal Reserve was created by bankers, for bankers to keep bankers from losing money.


    The choices they make have nothing to do directly with you or me. 

    Sure, ultimately it affects us, but that is secondary to their goals. 


  • Software Developer · Vidor, TX · Member since 2015 · 922 posts · 639 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    Up until now, I've been cheering the Fed on, grateful that Jerome Powell took his lumps for the way too easy money policies in late 2021, and cranked hard on interest rates to beat inflation. I think in 2022, this Federal Reserve acted more responsibly in the long-term interests of our country than any other central bank in the world, and made the hard, right choices, to preserve the dollar's status as the world's reserve currency for perhaps a few more decades at least. They certainly proved that they are, if not the best, then perhaps the "least bad" central bank in the world in 2022, in my mind. (And yes, I know that "best" and "least bad" is the same thing...)

    But, I don't understand why they proceeded with the hike yesterday, or at least didn't slow down. 

    Prices increased by 0.1% from October to November. If we carry that forward linearly over the next 12 months, that will lead to a ~1.2% increase in prices. This is less inflation than the Fed's 2% target. 

    Now, inflation compared to last year is still up 7.1%. But, that's not because prices are currently going up too fast. That's because prices already did go up and we are now at a higher baseline. High inflation in late 2021 and early 2022 made prices 6,7,8,9% higher. We can't compare prices to a year ago when determining monetary policy. We have to examine where we are and where we will be. That prices are 7.1% higher than they were a year ago is sunk cost. It's over. Done. The Fed's job going forward needs to be to ensure that inflation over the next 12 months remains at ~2%. 

    And right now, we are trending below that inflation target.

    Inflation, unless the Fed is seeing something I'm not, is essentially over. It appears to me that all we have to do is sit and wait 12 months, watching things, and we are likely to see prices right at the 2% level that we target, maybe below.  

    Why then, are we still raising rates? Raising rates increases the likelihood of deflation (if you thought inflation was bad, wait until we see deflation!) if the CPI data is to be believed. There are a whole bunch of reasons to believe that we are heading for a worsening recession (or the start of a recession - usage of the word "recession" to describe the current climate depends on your political affiliation here in 2022 - I welcome all viewpoints on this!) in 2023, with layoffs, a new higher baseline of rates, etc. On top of that, we have seen energy prices come way back down to earth, we are seeing housing prices falling, and a large percentage of inflation WAS tied up in supply chain issues, which are continuing to resolve. 

    I think the risk now is not inflation continuing to loom, but rather a severe overcorrection and needless worsening of the economy and growth. Up until now, I thought I understood the Fed's motivations, but it appears I miscalculated. Rather than trying to beat inflation and guide us towards a 2% inflation rate artfully, they appear ready to bulldoze their way to... deflation? 

    Anything I'm missing here or do other folks feel the same way?


    It's actually pretty simple and comes from https://www.federalreservehist...

    "Founded by an act of Congress in 1913, the Federal Reserve System was established with several goals in mind. Perhaps most important was to make the American banking system more stable. Banking panics—events characterized by widespread bank runs and payments suspensions and, to a degree, outright bank failures—had occurred often throughout the 19th century. Such panics were widely blamed on the nation’s “inelastic currency.”

    People used to put $100 in their account and expect to be able to draw all of it out when they wanted to. That is not the case now.

    Bankers employ something called "fractional reserve policy". That means they can make loans and have only 10% of the money available in their vaults. The other 90% is simply added to the ledger as numbers. It's a method of creating "money" that didn't exist before. That and "the velocity of money" are what make banker's a lot of profit. When either falls out of balance, the Fed intervenes to save them because it just wouldn't do to have banks lose money for their malfeasance. The Fed is run by bankers. 

    The Federal Reserve was created by bankers, for bankers to keep bankers from losing money.


    The choices they make have nothing to do directly with you or me. 

    Sure, ultimately it affects us, but that is secondary to their goals. 


    Didn't they eliminate the reserve requirement in 2020?
  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Justin Fox:
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Scott Trench:

    Up until now, I've been cheering the Fed on, grateful that Jerome Powell took his lumps for the way too easy money policies in 


    The Federal Reserve was created by bankers, for bankers to keep bankers from losing money.


    The choices they make have nothing to do directly with you or me. 

    Sure, ultimately it affects us, but that is secondary to their goals. 


    Didn't they eliminate the reserve requirement in 2020?

    You are a smart guy for knowing that! And you probably already know a lot of the details about the Fed. This gets into the weeds quickly and most people don't connect how the economy actually works. It's too tedious & uninteresting for them.

    The point I want to make, for most people, you can't plan your investments around what the Fed is doing if you don't understand their motives and their options.

    There is also now a provision that the money you put in the bank can be taken by the bank to stay liquid in the event they need your money. You become an unwitting "shareholder" in a failing bank.

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/...

    "Should another financial crisis befall us, rendering a number of too-big-to-fail banks insolvent, the good news is that taxpayers will no longer be forced to bail them out.

    The bad news is that these large Wall Street banks can now legally bail themselves out internally (referred to as “bail-ins”) using depositor funds.

    Thanks to Dodd-Frank, if you happen to hold your money in a savings or checking account at a bank, and that bank collapses, it can legally freeze and confiscate your funds for purposes of maintaining its solvency."

  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    @Scott Trench
    I will answer in a non technical way.   Who cares.  The table is set and I/We have to deal with it.  

    Forget the politics.  All markets were hot before inflation hit.   
    A.   Stock market was up and still wants to be up.   People feel rich they buy and pay more.

    B.  Shortage of workers.  Not enough babies.  Not enough legal immigration. Thank goodness for illegal although that is screwed up.

    C.  Fed poured gas on a fire.   More cash poured on the economy and we still haven’t spent the commitments from Obama years or Covid payments.   Again forget politics.  
    D.  Biden says no to petroleum with no Green plan in place.  Petroleum runs through all products.  Yes petroleum is coming down but vendors already built in price increases for commodities.  
    E.  Steel and lumber prices were very vivid related.  They have dropped about 60%.   But again vendors haven’t lowered prices.

    F.  All my contractors have been and still are 6 months out.  We are in the Midwest with lower highs and higher lows.   But that is what I see.  
    G.  There aren’t enough houses.

    Point:
    1.  Fed can’t do anything about these from a direct standpoint other than increase rates.

    2. Their other metric is unemployment which is positive so they can negatively impact that to slow inflation down.   Problem we don’t have enough workers. There should be huge layoffs after the new years.   But those people can still get a job even though underemployed.  If politics does another bailout and more cash/gas is dumped on the economy the fed is hosed.
    3.  All three of our bankers say there is still a lot of cash out there. Higher interest rates can’t force this to be not spent unless it is long term debt for sale.  
    4.  We are a good example. Have cash sitting on the sideline waiting for prices to go down.  Have 4 different projects waiting to pull the trigger.  Zoning, plans, financing are in place.  This will keep inflation up. 
    5.  Feds have to yell Chicken on increasing interest rates.  Due to debt levels they can’t go to 18% or our currency will implode.

    Feds have no tools to keep inflation down.  Once they pull their foot off interest rates inflation will pickup.  Keep in mind 6/7/8% interest are normal operating levels.   Just most people aren’t use to it so they are shell shocked waiting for 3% to return.  Once they understand the new normal and they rerun their numbers they will start to invest. Then inflation picks up.  

    Here is something we or you can do.  Put a view counter on these posts.  You have it on the blogs but not the forum posts.  I like knowing which of my posts are viewed the most so I can understand what people are interested in.

      Another thing.  I would like a Bigger Pockets ball cap.  I don’t have a financial axe in the game.  Just lie helping people. 

    Sorry for the Feds but they can only fail.  Which I’m okay with.  Inflation is great.  It’s growing at a faster pace and devaluing my debt.  

    Haha.   I just answered the question. The government should want inflation to increase so they can repay our debt with cheaper dollars.   They are smarter than me.  Took me 3 pages to figure it out.  Not really. Came to that conclusion two months ago.  

    Hopefully all of us have a similar view.  Who cares about the fed. 

  • Scott TrenchPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    3y

    @Henry Clark Love the reply here. And I think the suggestion to put a view counter on the posts is a great one. 

    I think that the "Feds" needs to be separated into their distinct buckets. The Federal Reserve is *less political than the Federal Government. They are not one and the same and they were built to have that insulation. One can argue that long-term, they will align, and there will be political overlap. 

    But in the near-term, I don't think Jay Powell has a lot of friends in DC. I think that the structure of the Federal Reserve is such that he is largely free to operate as he and the other board of governors are free to act as they so choose for the next several years, independent of political pressure. I don't think the next President is reappoinging Jerome Powell no matter what he does, given the failures in 2021. Given that, he has no incentive other than to preserve what remains of his legacy. And, all signs point to him very solemnly taking the responsibility of beating inflation to heart and cranking the dial come hell or high water. 

    And, rising interest rates (and sustaining them at the new, higher levels) is a very effective tool in curbing inflation. I think it dwarfs all other available tools. It makes more government borrowing very painful - I doubt we will hear about another massive stimulus injection, and the Federal Deficit is actually shrinking in 2022, compared to 2021 (after adjusting for COVID relief craziness). It immediately contracts asset/equity values. It makes it hard to sell/refinance homes. Think about how much less attractive it is to take a HELOC to buy anything today than it was a year ago - be it investments or toys. I believe that multifamily cap rates will rise, and stay much higher, for years to come because the economics on commercial real estate are fundamentally different with debt that is double the cost.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Henry Clark:

    Thank goodness for illegal although that is screwed up.

    I usually respect what you have to offer, but you lost me here. We may need more people in the workforce, but there is nothing positive about having millions of people enter this country unchecked, unvetted, and illegally....

  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    Federal deficit versus Federal Debt.

     Federal annual deficit may be shrinking, I haven’t researched it.  But Federal debt is increasing. I’m a Baby boomer.  Three of you guys are going to have to help pay for the $130trillion of benefits coming due for my portion.  Plus the Federal debt.  

    Whether Powell or a new president doesn’t matter.  Federal reserve can’t increase interest rates to say 8% and maintain it for 5 years.  

    Why 8 or there about?  At that point our debt payment level will be twice the amount of our military budget.   Something has to give.  

    Why around  5 years?  Although there are 30 year T bills the average life of our Federal debt is 8 years.  

    Lookup GDP or Fed Debt Level versus Fed interest rate graphs.  Fed can’t go to the same interest rate levels as before.  They will default in payments.  

    So why is Powell doing what he is doing.  He has to keep his foot on the gas pedal or inflation will blow.   It’s going to anyways.

      Why the smaller percentages?  Because he can only go so high and he can only sustain it for so long.  He’s running out of oxygen in his tank and he is stuck in a cave 50 feet down and no one knows he is there.  

    He needs to make more babies, more legal immigrants (not laborers, about 30mm in the next 10 years), pull back on the benefits programs(cut the $130 trillion to about $40trillion), cut spending by 1/3 with no special programs.   The above are order of magnitude figures.   But I hate to tell my mentor but the needle has swung to far. And no matter who runs for government it can’t be turned back.  


    The above are just words without actions.

    I tell people all the time you are right whether you win or lose.   It’s your money.

    So we have sold two of our largest assets and selling a third really large asset Q1.  Paid down a large portion of our debt.  Refinanced all of our debt to 25year amort with 25 year terms or to 20 year amort with 7 year term.  Extra cash we are parking in development land which we can double the value in a 3 year period; but just sitting on it.  
    Have cash in reserves.   Will actually lose money if inflation skyrockets since we sold those properties and paid that debt down. But we took our Risk-tolerance meter down several notches.   And we have a great view to watch from.  

  • Henry ClarkPro Member
    Developer · Member since 2020 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    @Bruce Woodruff

    I noted in that comment that it is screwed up getting more workers that way.  

    I would hate to be poor in our country and have more illegals drain those resources or take those upward mobility steps.  

    Would hate to be a D student in a class with 25% ESL students.  

    Would hate to be old person on a fixed budget buying medicine and paying higher rates to support free health care for non citizens.

    Etc etc.      

    But being on a REI forum more workers is helping our economy.

     Other economies such as China and Europe are drowning with an aging population.  India and Malaysia will be economic powerhouses due to their young and poor populations.  

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Henry Clark:

    But being on a REI forum more workers is helping our economy.

    We would be better with anything other than illegal unvetted workers flooding in.


  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    3y

    The Fed always goes too far. Too loose, too tight. Never the middle road.

  • Contractor · Member since 2021 · 18 posts · 3 votes
    3y

    @Chris Mason wow I admire the work put in to this post.

  • Member since 2022 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    3y

    A great and pretty easy read on the subject is this year's "The Lords of Easy Money".  It goes into how Bernanke's quantatative easing caused massive asset price inflation and that that is what the Fed is now targeting, not just the CPI.  

  • Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2019 · 434 posts · 248 votes
    3y

    IMO - the Fed looks in the rear view mirror rather than at the road.  But, it seems like Powell is concerned that wage growth is sticky and that if they let up too early inflation will come back.

    But, we have some encouraging numbers on inflation recently.  The past 5 months, headline CPI is at 1% flat, pretty much on target annualized.  Core CPI is at 1.9% the past 5 months, still too high, but much better.  CPI will come down to 2%-3% by next year.  32% of the CPI report is "shelter costs"  8% is an actual rent survey but its done in a YoY analysis, so rents appear to still be going up when they are going down in real time.  That will take another 3-9 months to works its out way down.  And OER is 24% of the entire CPI report.  Owners Equivalent Rent survey.  

    OER - get this!!  The US Bureau of Labor statistics calls random home owners each month and asks them what they think their home would rent for if they had to move.  A subjective opinion from homeowners on what their home would rent for.  Let that sink in for a moment... This metric, is 24% of the entire CPI report!!!  It takes months and months for the avg home owner to realize that rents are actually going down, so OER is another lagging indicator that could take another 3-6 months to start coming down.

    Nov CPI -  Core rose 0.2%, headline rose 0.1%.  Shelter costs were up 0.6% - and they make up 32% of the report.  Imagine in 3-6 months when shelter costs are -0.3%, we will see some negative CPI numbers and I think by Q2/Q3 we hit an annual 2% CPI number.

    PCE - that is more challenging.  But, I am willing to bet that if CPI is at 2% and PCE is at 4%, Powell is going to focus on PCE and still keep rates high... 

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