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Updated about 9 years ago, 10/15/2015
- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
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Who is more unethical Realtors or used car salesmen?
I know this will ruffle a few feathers but it is a fair question.
I have met and had hundreds of interactions with realtors and I am never surprised at the new lows that some of them can reach. I was also a manager at CarMax (the largest seller of used vehicles in the world) so I understand used car sales people.
Before you get too upset, I agree that there are good realtors and good used sales people out there (I think that they are few and far between). But, based on my experience both are highly questionable in their interactions and practices.
Most recently I found out that a realtor that represented me told the other agent pertinent information about my situation when I expressly told them that they were not to share it with anyone. This caused me a loss of about $10,000.
I am a highly religious man that tries to operate honestly and fairly in all interaction (I am human and do make mistakes). But, I have been lied to, deceived and wronged by almost every realtor and car salesman that I have encountered.
Please share your story with me and see if you can change my jaded view of these so called "professions" or share a story that reinforces my point of view.
- Adam Bartomeo
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I have not experienced the blatant dishonesty you talk about. But I don'trust most of them. They are salespeople and are usually full of hot air. I worked in sales for 5 years and watched coworkers just make stuff up to answer questions quite frequently. I have a pretty keen BS meter. I also know intuitively when people are being dishonest with me. I usually don't say anything. But one of my hobbies is reading books about body language and deception detection. I have read manuals written by law enforcement on the subject. But no, you can't depend on realtors to have your best interest in mind. They are out for themselves.
The problem is that buyers give them way too much influence over decisions. Some buyers practically let the realtor steer them into or out of houses. The thing that annoys me about just about all of them is that they assume they know everything/and you know next to nothing. I hate when people take a condescending attitude. I have always looked younger than my age and it is a sensitive issue for me when people talk down to me. I have three degrees including a master from the ivy league and a top law school. Just because I am wearing work clothes and ask questions does not mean I have not done my homework or don't know anything. I usually know an answer to the question I ask but I just want to see how someone responds or get other perspectives.
When it comes across that your position is the only way of looking at something, it turns me off. Then again, they are used to dealing with retail buyers who only buy a house a few times in a life time, and trust the realtor way too much in my opinion. One realtor told a friend of mine that sellers could not pay closing costs because they had no money in their bank account.
The biggest issue I've faced is that they undervalue my properties and underestimate rehabs. The highest volume guy in my town undervalued one of my houses by ten percent of what I actually sold for myself. That's quite a bit of money. On the buyers side, I typically see a lack of priority. The stuff they focus on in the buying process never ceases to amaze me. (cabinet knobs, a screw not painted, a 50 cent part, a gutter downspout. I can go on and on.)
IF you are a realtor, here's what I want from you. Know the market. Know what a deal looks like. I use my guy, not because he wears a suit and has a glossy card (he wears shorts and a t shirt), but he knows all the houses in my area in my price range and how much they sold for, what was wrong with them, etc. He points out the flaws in the houses I look at, and has a pretty good eye for investment opportunities. The problem is, other investors use him too. There is no loyalty to me. Just to the dollar.
@Russell Brazil I was not referring to the Fair Housing Act (I am not trying to buy or rent a house from him). I was just pointing out the age discrimination in @Jay Hinrichs statement although it seems he misspoke or I misunderstood. I'm sure he is great at what he does and there is no doubt both of you are more experienced in real estate than I am. I am a Mechanical Engineer and am involved in real estate for fun.
Age discrimination laws for hiring or doing business are pretty loose right now at the federal and state level but are bound to tighten up over the next few years. Being on the loosing end of this discrimination I am quick to get defensive, as you can see, and I apologize. For a similar reason, honest and ethical agents/brokers are quick to defend their tattered reputation caused by non-law abiding or rule bending realtors.
In my specific case I have dealt with many agents/brokers who lied, broke the law or were unethical in some way. Specifically (for those who asked):
-An agent stated a property could get conventional financing when he knew it had previously fallen out of contract because the buyer was denied conventional financing because the property was inhabitable.
-I was told the above confidential information about the agents client
-An agent refused to present an offer the the seller because it was "too low" and the seller owed a mortgage above my offer (I think this is also confidential info that shouldn't be disclosed)
-An agent refused to present an offer to a seller because there were already multiple offers that were higher than mine and it was a waste of both of our time
-An agent gave me the code to a lock box for a property and said I could show it to my self (this was actually to my benefit but I'm not sure the legality of this)
-An agent did not disclose to me that there was a dispute about the property line on the title and withheld the property disclosure form, which clearly had this information displayed.
The above are unfortunate situations that I have been involved in. Some of these may be legal but this is what I have to base my personal opinion of realtors on. Through all of this I know that there are honest, ethical and legal agents/brokers out there and I hope I can work with them in the future.
For all the good brokers/agents out there, I will be more careful to not stereotype.
@Adam Bartomeo Still no details on how you lost $10,000 ? I can see in your profile you have been active on BP all day. Why not answer the question?
- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
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@Mark FergusonSir, thank you for your interest in the post and I apologize for not reporting back to you as instructed. Sir, there have been a lot of posts in this thread and you are not the only one to ask questions I still have a business to run, again apologies.
Sir, the matter that you are referring to is pending litigation and my attorney has asked me not to share too much information. I don't think it is going anywhere but we'll see.
Sir, may I ask you a question? Why can't you provide a good interaction that you are aware of about a realtor, agent, licensee?
Sir, may I ask you another question? Why are you stalking me BP account? It seems a little strange to be monitoring someone's account. I know I'm handsome but this seems a little awkward, sir.
- Adam Bartomeo
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- 239-339-3969
Originally posted by @Adam Bartomeo:
@Mark FergusonSir, thank you for your interest in the post and I apologize for not reporting back to you as instructed. Sir, there have been a lot of posts in this thread and you are not the only one to ask questions I still have a business to run, again apologies.
Sir, the matter that you are referring to is pending litigation and my attorney has asked me not to share too much information. I don't think it is going anywhere but we'll see.
Sir, may I ask you a question? Why can't you provide a good interaction that you are aware of about a realtor, agent, licensee?
Sir, may I ask you another question? Why are you stalking me BP account? It seems a little strange to be monitoring someone's account. I know I'm handsome but this seems a little awkward, sir.
Thanks for responding! Why are you addressing me as "sir" in every paragraph when you have not done that with anyone else? Is that some sort of subtle antagonism? Doesn't really matter.
What matters is you bash an entire industry of professionals with anecdotal stories and when asked for details you can't provide them. It looks very suspicious and brings up a question of why in the world would you post this thread if you are pending litigation in the matter?
To answer your questions.
I have been a licensed realtor since 2001. I run a team of 9 and we have sold over 500 homes the last three years. I know most agents in my area and I can say that less than 5 percent that I work with are dishonest or unethical. The dishonest ones are usually the new agents trying to make a quick buck and they learn real fast it doesn't work in this business. The people who end up working with the dishonest agents are usually trying to save money by cutting corners and finding agents who will give them a kickback, or offer very cheap services etc. You usually get what you pay for. I didn't want to toot my own horn and talk about how awesome most agents are since I am one an biased.
It took me a second to see that you had not responded to anyone's questions about the deal and about another second to see when you were online last. I didn't want to ask you again if you had not been on the site and had a chance to respond. It was common courtesy to check your profile first.
The worst is a used car dealer turned real estate agent. But seriously, no one has all the answers and ours is an imperfect world. Results are not guaranteed, but ones bad actions are not limited to car salesmen or real estate people. We all encounter those who seek to do us harm and as the the Irish say " forgive those that trespass against us but cruse them so we know who they are".
- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
- 964
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@Account Closed Awesome first line. Although, with this crowd they might do you the old "Byzantine empire" way.
- Adam Bartomeo
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- 239-339-3969
I've had good and bad experiences with both. Though the only time I was ever out and out lied to was car salesman. I was mailed an offer to buy a new car at a particular price with a promise of my current car being a trade-in for a particular price. Lamb to the slaughter, I know!, but I went anyway.
Long story short, they told me they couldn't honor my mailer because my car had a salvage title. Offered me $1,000 to "get it off my hands". I went home incredibly upset, because I knew I hadn't bought it as a salvage title. Was on the phone with the bank, who had my loan and therefore my title, multiple times the next day trying to get to the bottom of it. Got so upset and wasted a lot of time for NOTHING. My title was fine. It was not a salvage title. They were just trying to steal my $7K car for $1K.
Ironically, the salesman who sold me the (above) car I am talking about four years previous to this, was absolutely fantastic. I was nervous about my credit and knew they had a special in-house credit financing. But when I told him my credit score, he told me NOT to use their in-house financing because that was more for really low scores and mine was fine. He asked if I belonged to a credit union and, when I said I did, he told me my best bet was to get a pre-approval from them. I mean, seriously?!? A car salesman who actually sent me OUT of their dealership to get my own financing because I would be better off that way. I returned the next day...preapproval in hand...and waited for him to buy the car I wanted. Which he sold to me at below wholesale blue book price. I have referred countless people to that dealership and him specifically.
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As for REAs, although my experiences have been limited, they have primarily been awesome. My first REA really held my hand through the process. I was a first time buyer and buying a duplex, to boot. There were a lot of ups and downs and she really went to bat for me. But then, like many of you had mentioned when talking about good agents, she has a stellar reputation in the industry and has been in business for over 25 years. She has a steady stream of clients and referrals.
The only bad experiences I've had...and these are fairly minor...are agents who seemed eager to get my business. But then don't call me back in a timely manner (or at all) when I have a hot lead on a house I want to view.
Also, when I was displaced in Miami after Hurricane Katrina, I contacted an agent about finding a short-term corporate apartment...which he had specifically advertised was his specialty on a CL ad. Yet, even though he knew I was only in Miami temporarily and I had already explicitly told him I did not want to buy a condo...ALL he wanted to talk to me about was these "great underground" deals for below market prices on new condo high rises going up.
So...wait...let me get this straight. I need housing NOW. I've told you I don't want to buy real estate. And your answer is to sell me a condo I couldn't even move into because the development is still being built. Am I understanding that right? Did we just land into an alternate reality where the words I say suddenly have a totally different meaning from what I think they mean?
- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
- 964
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@Jennifer T. When I got back from my deployment to the Middle East the first thing I did was buy a car. The Sales person sold me a warranty on a car that still had a two year factory warranty left on it. I was 21 at the time. I just look back at it and laugh now.
- Adam Bartomeo
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- 239-339-3969
- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
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@Michael S. Great post on your experiences.
- Adam Bartomeo
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- 239-339-3969
- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
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@Mark Ferguson Thank for your response. Sir, you have an easy way of trying to misguide the truths of your posts by speaking eloquently.
Sir, understand that I have no malintent with this observation and I hold no grudges against you but I think my post is factual and accurate.
Sir, In your first 2 posts you were calling me out to fight. This is why I responded with the polite response of sir. I have no intent to fight with anyone, those days have long passed. But, you tried to provoke it again in your third post. This is why you wrote the posts, to battle.
Sir, In your first, second and third responses you insinuated that I am not honest a person. Again calling for a fight and questioning my integrity instead of just giving a great story about a fantastic realtor. Instead, you tried to show your domination and prowess about how your realtors sell lots of homes. No examples of ethics or morales.
Sir, in your third post you twisted the truth of checking my BP page as being common courtesy. I would call it for what it is, a stalker waiting outside someone's house to try and hurt them. You had only made your post a couple of hours earlier and yet you were calling me out again.
You, sir, are the exact reason why this thread exists and has gotten so many posts. Because of the deceitful language that you have used to manipulate people into not knowing your true intent. I feel sorry for you and wish you the best in life.
- Adam Bartomeo
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- 239-339-3969
- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
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I primarily coordinate Hard Money loans but I am also a licensed Real Estate Broker-Salesman in Nevada. Unfortunately, I have to agree with a lot of what the original post claims. I have witnessed and continue to witness unethical practices by agents on almost every deal I am involved in. Whether it's not presenting an offer, an inaccurate SRPD, divulging confidential information, or just simply not following up on an agent call, it all boils down to lack of professionalism and the ease of entry into the field of Real Estate as @Matt Motil pointed out. "99.9%" is in reality more like 75% in my opinion. To be honest, it seems the problem is getting worse and that number is steadily rising. The overall economy is struggling and your average person out there, regardless of occupation, will take the low road for financial gain if they think they can get away with it. I wish it weren't so, but it is. So if a Real Estate Agent can't give you at least handful of verifiable references on the quality and professionalism of their service, then move on to another who can.
Spoke much better than I could have. Sad but true.
- Adam Bartomeo
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- 239-339-3969
- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
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@Account Closed phenomenal post sir. I spent many years in sales and have also read several books on reading body language - 80% of communication. I was also trained to do this in the interview process when hiring employees. It takes a lot of practice.
- Adam Bartomeo
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I think we can all agree that what this thread has really taught us all is if you want to get the Popular Poster Award to start a topic with the most inflammatory idea you can come up with.
- Russell Brazil
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- (301) 893-4635
- Podcast Guest on Show #192
A lot of time and effort has been sunk into this topic, most of it divisive. The manner in which the question was presented was pretty troll-like in nature, and it seems the intent was to draw some sensitivities out into the open. Had it be presented more plainly, "I've had a lot of bad experiences with realtors and used car salesman. Do you have any examples of these professionals providing a useful service?" I think it would not have garnered the attention it has received, but also I think it would have lead to a more constructive conversation.
While I am not the Topic Police, don't you think you have all been played against each other long enough?
- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
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@Scott HugginsNo sir. I try not to sign realtor contracts based on the history. I have had issues on both sides.
- Adam Bartomeo
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- Real Estate Broker
- Cape Coral, FL
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@Jay Hinrichs When I was a manager at HD we had what is called "voice of the customer". Customers used to write comments about their experience on there. Sometimes the customers would completely verbally distroy my store and my associates.
My first response was to deny. That can't be right! Not in my store! Not my associates! I never saw what the customers were seeing. Whenever I came around the associates treated everyone like first class guests.
But, Why would someone take the time out of their busy day to do this. Most of the time it's because it was the truth. I started spending more time on the floor observing and saw why the customers saw. We had to shape up.
I posted every single comment in the break room every single week. By the time I left we didn't have many negative comments. We, as a store accepted the comments - right, wrong or indifferent - and adjusted to make a better experience for the customer.
From what I can tell you are highly respected and may not be so close to the front lines anymore. There may be more going on this planet then you suspect.
- Adam Bartomeo
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- Lender
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@Adam Bartomeo by HD do you mean Home Depot ?
I hired a broker over on the ORegon coast to sell one of my townhouses projects 64 units. He was retired senior management at HD he ran the entire Mid west I believe 16,000 associates under his command. He was an excellent broker .. Matter of fact when he had me come to his Christmas party at his home ( 2 million ocean front digs) I asked him you know your much more polished than most brokers who work for r me and he then explained his past job.
Even today most agents did something else in their career's rare is the person like me who started at 18 and never have done anything else.
I work with no less than 20 brokers in 12 states.. I was with one today in Kokomo INd we went to a foreclosure sale and bought 2 homes ..
Nope I am in the tenches everyday plus the 40 or so agents at my Oregon office, I just don't see what your elude too as an industry problem
- Jay Hinrichs
- Podcast Guest on Show #222
Sometimes people are just itching to complain.
Honestly, OP had a choice to either complain about the world, or do something constructive with his time (such as .....do his research and find a better realtor!.)
- Real Estate Marketer/Cleaning Biz Owner/Design Stager
- Santa Cruz , CA
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My gosh. 99.9% is just an expression that means "the vast majority." It is certainly no reason for disparaging remarks about religious people. I do not know if "ethical" is the right word, but certainly a lot of real estate agents are conflicted when it come to their fiduciary duty towards especially buyers. They even have seminars on what fiduciary means and how to be minimally compliant using a lightweight definition of the buyer's interest
Originally posted by @Katie Rogers:
My gosh. 99.9% is just an expression that means "the vast majority." It is certainly no reason for disparaging remarks about religious people.
Right? My main takeaway from this thread was:
Investors DO NOT like it when people mix statistics with hyperbole. (and probably leave religion out of the conversation too just to be safe.)
Hello All,
I've been reading alot on the forum for about a year, and this topic seemed like the perfect one to finally post on. My apologies, I'm still not entirely sure how to quote from more than one source from this thread, but I'd like to add my two cents to the pot.
I hate to get on this bandwagon @Michael S., but I have to agree with @Jay Hinrichs, and @James Wise. Based on your profile photo, I'm assuming you and I are roughly the same age (I'm 23), unfortunately, age discrimination is not illegal! The only time "age discrimination" is actually a litigious offense is if an individual is discriminated against because they're too old!!! I know, I pursued a case once. Unless you're over forty, age discrimination won't affect you.
Again, @Michael S., "An agent refused to present an offer the the seller because it was "too low" and the seller owed a mortgage above my offer (I think this is also confidential info that shouldn't be disclosed)"
If the client has stated they don't want to be bothered by offers below "X", I don't have any obligation to present that offer. If that's the case, I have no intention of wasting my time, or the buyer's agent's time. Same story, if the seller allows me to disclose his or her mortgage amount, you'd better believe I will! It keeps the useless offers out of my e-mail.
My parents were real estate investors, and I watched them deal with all kinds of REALTORS, and real estate licensees growing up - @Adam Bartomeo, I have to agree, real estate "unprofessionals" are the bane of the industry, but that does not mean they're the norm. Provided you answer your phone when your customer, or client calls, and admit when you don't know the right answer if and when that occurs, the people you're working with are thrilled you're honest with them.
@Nick Britton, I've seen REALTORS who've signed on the dotted line, and taken the NAR required ethics courses, BOLD FACED LIE to either me when I was starting out as an investor, or to my parents. There are losers in every field, you just have to weed out the bad ones.
@Kim Knox, For the few closings I've facilitated one side or the other, I agree. The quieter and more unremarkable the transaction, the better it is. My theory: if your client forgot you existed, you did your job.
@Mike Cumbie, as a Broker, I can tell you that your definition of unethical is incorrect, at least here in Florida. 95% of real estate transactions here in Florida are done as a "transactional deal" - meaning that both REALTORS involved were "transactional agents". There are three kinds of transactions: Single Agency, No Representation, and Transactional. (1) In a single agency transaction, the REALTOR is actually looking out for your best interests. In this case, the REALTOR is truly working for you, and has to do whatever it takes to get you either (A) The lowest price if you're the buyer, or (B) The highest price if you're the seller. (2) In a No Representation transaction, the REALTOR is just there for the commission. Usually this occurs when a REALTOR is in a single agency relationship with a seller, and you walked in to their office, or called them off their yard sign. In this case, you're about to get shafted, see single agency above. (3) In a transaction deal, the REALTOR is merely there to do the paperwork. We are not there to give you advice, or look out for your best interests. Our job is to show you units (houses, condos, WHATEVER) until you say "this is the one". At that point, we write up the deal, and hope for the best. Personally, I work exclusively as a transactional agent. I don't EVER recommend that you take an offer as a seller, or that you offer "X" as the buyer. All I do is put the paperwork together. At the same time @Adam Bartomeo, I'd advise you to look up your requirements as a REALTOR again. Even as a transactional agent, IF I'm given permission to disclose X,Y, or Z, and that information will get the deal to the table, you'd better believe I'm going to disclose whatever I've been given permission to disclose!
- Real Estate Broker
- Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH
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Welcome to the site @Ben Pekarek. Great 1st post to break the ice with.
This is one of the craziest threads ever. Makes me sad, really. This one thread showed the worst side of what our society has become. Follow it for a second and you will see what I mean.
1. OP asks a question, expressing frustration with how hard it can seem to be to find good, honest people to work with. In so doing, uses hyperbole in numbers, and his background or beliefs that act as his drivers.
2. Then all *blank* breaks loose. Attack him. Attack his beliefs. Attack his hyperbole. Attack his experience. Defend opinion with personal experience. Defend opinion with number of properties. Defend opinion with number of people who report to self. Defend him when he has been attached too much. Emotion. Yay!!! Fight!!! Yay!!!
Or maybe....just maybe we look at it for what it is. Yup, some people suck. There are good ones out there, but finding them takes work. Requires knowledge, which is specialized; making shady operators working in industries where large sums of money change hands, very apparent. Truth is bad people, unethical people, are in every industry. Try finding a truly honest car mechanic who never upsells a repair.
From my position reading many of the posts (got tired of the negativity, so I might have missed some), this post brought out the worst of some. Not needed. Perhaps rather than attack and defend, a simple statement of encouragement or suggestions of questions to ask to find good realtors (or used car salesmen, I guess) would have been a better use of your time. Seems to me that would be the appropriate use of the forum. (and please don't go literal on me saying "that wasn't his question". We are all intelligent enough to know what the OP was looking for with the start of this thread.)
Be Well