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Updated over 9 years ago, 05/18/2015
Lifestyles Unlimited, Inc vs. Biggerpockets - Which is the best bang for your buck
I got this screenshot from an email that I got today.
For those of you that don't know, Lifestyles Unlimited is an investor "mentoring" group out of Texas that boast of worldwide membership. The also have a daily hour long "radio show", which is actually a paid advertisement, on numerous radio stations and can be heard in podcast format as well. They have three levels of membership that they constantly are trying to upgrade you to in a series of sales pitches. The lowest level, the Financial Freedom Membership is $500 for the first 2 years (can't buy 1 year) and $250 each year after. The other 2 membership levels are below. The Challenge is for single family investors and the Preferred is for multi-family. They prohibit challenge members from participating in any multi-family group deals, even if only as a passive investor.
If you don't know what BiggerPockets is, uhhh... Well, you are here,, take a look around and join in, it is FREE!!! If you care to upgrade to take advantage of some of the extras, the PLUS membership is $90.00 a year and the PRO membership is $290.00 a year.
Lets compare:
$8000.00 vs. $90.00 a year = 88.888888 years of BiggerPockets PLUS membership
$18000.00 vs. $290.00 a year = 62.086 years of BiggerPockets PRO membership
Lifestyles Unlimited is open 8-5 mon-fri with limited staff to assist you to answer your questions.
BiggerPockets is open 24/7/365 with over 200,000 members available to answer your questions.
You decide.
Originally posted by @Greg H.:
First of all I want to apologize For the football comment. I was pissed about the not going to college comment
You have several people on here who have done dozens if not hundreds of flips and buy and holds. Why would you dismiss any criticisms from people that have the experience and maybe a different strategy that would cost a potential investor nothing ? What is the philosophy of LU ? I think we can all agree that the radio show is an infomercial and offers very little substance
Personally, I believe there is NO substitute for experience and " going through the muck" as you say breeds a better level of understanding and success. For example, I would trust my contractor on structural issues long before I would trust a recent graduate with an engineering degree. FYI , he is Hispanic and speaks very little English but has spent 20+ years in the trenches .
Big of you, Greg, and apology accepted. For the record, I was not implying that you did not go to college (it was my assumption you had) - I was only making the point that you paid to go to college to learn what they taught, notwithstanding that the knowledge itself was available elsewhere, and likely for less.
The big diss on BP against LU is that LU costs something and BP doesn't, so therefore LU is either inferior or for inferior people.
I just couldn't disagree more. One of the things they advocate is to learn more from other people's successes than from other people's failures. Put another way, do what successful people do. Every month, I get to meet a couple single family investors who present their successful deals and at least one multifamily investor who presented his/her successful deal. I'm sure there are many successful people here on BP too, but meeting and talking to someone face-to-face who just talked in depth for 30-45 min about the details of their last transaction cannot be (in my opinion) be replaced by interacting in an online forum.
Is experience the best teacher? Yes, I actually agree with you on that. But my experience has also been that by imitating the successful behaviors of people I have actually met and know to be successful (versus sorting out what works/doesn't work, what's real/not real, which is the best of a multitude of opinions - and which are qualified opinions or unqualified opinions), I am also more successful and avoid some of the "muck". LU puts me in direct contact with other successful people and that is one of the primary benefits I've derived. (I avoid the opinions of hanger ons and wannabes that are also members of LU, BTW - they are often more easily discerned in person).
PS - As an aside, I admire UT and have many friends who went there, though my alma mater, Emory University, is still undefeated in football (no football team).
Originally posted by @Nick B.:
So, you paid upfront but have not gotten what you paid for (an MF deal)? For 12K (or 18K now) you would expect LU to dig the tdirt and find the best deal possible immediately. Why else would you pay such a high fee?
I don't mind to pay but only for the actual performance and not for the promise. Everyone involved in a typical real estate transaction gets paid after the close. Why should a mentoring group be paid upfront an exuberant fee without any deal on the horizon?
Maybe you read the link I posted above about the Harvard grad working as a janitor. That person paid upfront (albeit using student loans), and Harvard did not line up that job, and Harvard could not guarantee that there would be a suitable job upon completion; seems similar to the points in this excerpt of your post. I suspect that LU would take a similar angle.
#5 Multi-Family and Apartment Investing Contributor
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#5 Multi-Family and Apartment Investing Contributor
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I read your link about Harvard janitor. However, in that case the janitor is to blame. He choose a non-marketable degree and it does not matter if he got it from Harvard or a community college - he would still be a janitor.
May take on the janitor's story is this: if you're smart enough to get accepted to a top tier university you should be smart enough to choose a degree that would virtually guarantee you a high paying job (e.g. a lawyer or a doctor). You should also be smart enough to get the full scholarship to pay for that degree or your parents should be rich enough to pay for it in cash. Otherwise, it's just a waste of time and money.
In case of the janitor, Harvard delivered what it had promised - a degree in a subject chosen by a student. Universities do not promise to put every student in a job. That's student's job.
Now, in case of LU (or any similar establishment), they cannot be compared to a university because their final product is not a degree but profits in the pocket of a student. That's their promise. They act more like consultants and should be paid as such - for the actual performance. If not, why don't they have scholarships?
Originally posted by @Nick B.:
I read your link about Harvard janitor. However, in that case the janitor is to blame. He choose a non-marketable degree and it does not matter if he got it from Harvard or a community college - he would still be a janitor.
May take on the janitor's story is this: if you're smart enough to get accepted to a top tier university you should be smart enough to choose a degree that would virtually guarantee you a high paying job (e.g. a lawyer or a doctor). You should also be smart enough to get the full scholarship to pay for that degree or your parents should be rich enough to pay for it in cash. Otherwise, it's just a waste of time and money.
In case of the janitor, Harvard delivered what it had promised - a degree in a subject chosen by a student. Universities do not promise to put every student in a job. That's student's job.
Now, in case of LU (or any similar establishment), they cannot be compared to a university because their final product is not a degree but profits in the pocket of a student. That's their promise. They act more like consultants and should be paid as such - for the actual performance. If not, why don't they have scholarships?
If LU was being paid for "actual performance" would they not be paid when the transaction is complete rather than before it actually begins ?
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Originally posted by @Greg H.:
If LU was being paid for "actual performance" would they not be paid when the transaction is complete rather than before it actually begins ?
My point exactly but they prefer to be paid before and stay out of the actual transaction.
@Nick B. - We did not pay for a MF deal. We paid for membership that gives us access to SF deals, MF deals, detailed training, hands-on mentoring, vendors, etc. The lease audit and unit walk for other members is indeed for the learning experience. I can tell the MF mentoring team at anytime that I want to start looking for a deal for me and they will help me with soup to nuts. We've chosen to build a SF portfolio first to get experience with deal evaluation, rehabbing, leasing and tenant screening, and property management. MF version of those activities is different than SF, but the cash flow and confidence we are building will ultimately help us succeed in MF also. If I didn't have a full time job and had lots of spare cash, I'd probably jump right into MF, but that's not our starting point.
I actually don't know the answer to your question about whether a non-PIG member can invest with a LU lead investor if they happen to know them already. I haven't put together a syndicate under LU guidance (or at all yet). It would be the lead investor who is bound by whatever limitations are in the membership agreement with LU on who can invest with them (beyond legal requirements).
I appreciate your hanging in there. For those demanding success rates I'd like to see the same information from the posters here that sell information/ebooks etc. right here.
As far as the FREE information here I cringe at the amount of incorrect information that goes unchallenged or when it is the poster evades scrutiny. I feel this does not serve the forum and is detrimental to new investors.
Originally posted by @Bob Bowling:
Since I believe I am the only one on this thread who has asked for success rates and who sells an information product, I'll assume this is addressed to me...
Honestly, I have no idea what percentage of the people who have purchased my books have found them worth the price. But, I offer a no-questions-asked money-back-guarantee for anyone who buys my books (Josh and I agreed up-front that we wouldn't have it any other way), so if anyone feels they haven't gotten their money's worth, all they have to do is ask for their money back.
If LU (or any of the high-priced training companies) offered the same guarantee, I would be the first one to endorse them. But, they don't, which tells me that they don't believe their product is worth the cost to enough students to make that a profitable business model.
And for reference, of the 17,000+ books I've sold, I can count on two fingers the number of times I've been asked for a refund.
Does that answer your question, Bob?
To add to my response above to Bob, and just for completeness, let me add that I can be convinced that any product that includes a service component shouldn't necessarily offer a full refund. If a coach spends time coaching, they should be paid for their time, assuming the information they provide is reasonable. So, if LU were to charge $20K for coaching and someone asked for a refund, it would be reasonable (in my opinion) to deduct an amount equivalent to a reasonable hourly rate for any actual instruction received from the refund.
So, let's say that a student received coaching for 20 hours in a class with 4 other students. If it's reasonable to assume the coach's time was worth $100/hour or so, and spread across the other students and the 20 hours, that would be $400 that should not be refunded. In other words, time of the instructor shouldn't necessarily be reimbursed.
But, there's something else to add here -- if you're not going to refund for actual time spent, there's a responsibility on the coaching organization to evaluate the student ahead of time to determine the likelihood of a good fit. If a coach accepts any random idiot into his program, he deserves to lose money for the time he wasted on that idiot.
So, I guess the question becomes -- does LU screen students upfront and weed out the ones unlikely to succeed? And will they offer a pro-rated refund for any student that decides to drop out if they feel they aren't getting their money's worth?
My guess is that the answer is no to both questions...
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @J Scott:
Originally posted by @Bob Bowling:
Does that answer your question, Bob?
Nope!
In that case, you probably need to be more specific in your question(s).
I dunno J. We dropped 60K out of pocket, and took on another 300K in debt, on our first acquisition ... at the time I thought it pretty high-priced training ;-)
@Lee Reeves Kudos for your quality, substantive posts.
I'm not familiar with LU, but the problem I have with expensive training / mentoring programs (and I am talking about $5,000 or more) is that 1) only a fraction of their students will succeed. Now, you can say that is the student's fault for not taking action, but it doesn't change the facts. People often evaluate colleges by their placement rates. They want to know how many students get jobs in their fields. And that is a fair question.
I am familiar with FortuneBuilders and have heard from people that have gone through their program that only maybe 15% do a deal. The problem is FB knows that going in and yet they talk people into going into debt to get education they will never use. I just think that is unconscionable.
And 2) they over sell. They tell you about the people making 100% ROI when that in turn is a fraction of the 15%!
@Nick B. It sounds like you are nervous about being taken and again about investing. $500 is not a huge risk. It isn't going to break you. But $8,000 or $18,000--you better know exactly how you are going to profit from it--no guessing, no hoping.
What you might want to do, and what I have done, is make colleague requests here on BP and ask people if you can call them and pick their brain. You'd be surprised at how open people are. You can get your mentoring for free. I've done that several times now--and I just sent somebody a message before this post--to find out ideas and strategies that are new to me.
From my experience holding 10 properties (I've also flipped 11), I can tell you that 20% cash on cash return is very attainable and probably if you are just a little smart. 100% is attainable, too, but is unlikely for most of us.
Originally posted by @Larry T.:
I am familiar with FortuneBuilders and have heard from people that have gone through their program that only maybe 15% do a deal. The problem is FB knows that going in and yet they talk people into going into debt to get education they will never use. I just think that is unconscionable.
And 2) they over sell. They tell you about the people making 100% ROI when that in turn is a fraction of the 15%!
Perfectly said...
Originally posted by @J Scott:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @J Scott:
Originally posted by @Bob Bowling:
Does that answer your question, Bob?
Nope!
In that case, you probably need to be more specific in your question(s).
My question.
For those demanding success rates I'd like to see the same information from the posters here that sell information/ebooks etc. right here.
Your answer. Honestly, I have no idea what percentage of the people who have purchased my books have found them worth the price.
@J Scott, ya gotta help me out here. What's wrong with my question?
Anyway it wasn't directed at you. I was posting on my phone and to get the letters big enough to read I have to sacrifice the pic of you with your "far away studied" pose. Sorry, it was a sacrifice I was willing to make, I was replying to the general vibe of the thread.
Seems it would be more appropriate to invite a rep from the outfit although I was very impressed with @Lee Reeves posts and based on his participation here I think LU has a 100% success rate!
Success rates? How many people saved hundreds of thousands by spending the money to realize they SHOULD NOT be in the real estate business? Ever buy a gym membership based on success rates? LOL
Seems like this thread is still going and people are posting a major reason to join LU is to meet other successful investors. From what I see many BP local meetups are taking place nationwide. I count myself among the people who work directly with people from BP and have been successful for it. My business have increased, I have placed more units under my management, and have wholesaled and help others wholesale to BP members.
I also invest in areas like Alabama where BP and LU are not widely known or used. So getting together with successful investors means finding the local hangout or eatery and getting your feet wet in the conversation. I would not pay 10, 15, 20K for information I can get from a local guy every day.
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Your answer. Honestly, I have no idea what percentage of the people who have purchased my books have found them worth the price.
@J Scott, ya gotta help me out here. What's wrong with my question?
That's fair. I think it's safe to say that if getting a refund is as simple as sending an email, then anyone who doesn't ask for a refund found the information to be worth the price.
Based on that, I can conclude that (as of this moment), 17,242 out of 17,245 of my customers have felt that the price they paid for my books was worth it for the information they received from those books.
That's a 99.98% success rate.
And for the people I've mentored over the years, 100% of them have earned an infinite amount more doing real estate deals than they've spent on the mentoring.
Originally posted by @Larry Turowski:
@Lee Reeves Kudos for your quality, substantive posts.
Originally posted by @Bob Bowling:
Seems it would be more appropriate to invite a rep from the outfit although I was very impressed with @Lee Reeves posts and based on his participation here I think LU has a 100% success rate!
Ah, I think I'll just bask in this for awhile. And since this horse is almost beaten to death, hopefully I can put aside my keyboard and agree to disagree with any others.
And I won't even bother to quarrel with @J. Scott's assertion that a refund request rate is the same as a success rate of applying his book to investing. That would almost be like saying that the number of Better Business Bureau complaints divided by the number of members is equal to a success rate. But like I said, I'll let someone else take that up. ;-)
I'm a former member of LU, I think they have a great program, and for someone starting out, spending the $500 (or whatever it was) for the first year was a great investment for me.
I was a member for 3 years and still listen to the radio shows,,,good organization, good guidelines for someone starting out.
The really expensive programs are really designed for someone getting into multifamily, not single family, and involve use of their real estate agents, etc,,,,I can't speak to its effectiveness because I wasn't a member on that level
Hi all,
I am only on BP right now so my LU experience has all been based on meeting one of their members and going to their website. Our company acquires and manages multifamily properties, met the LU member when I called him to purchase his property.
This is what I gathered from him. He knew nothing about RE prior to joining LU. Since he joined a few years ago (4-5) he has been purchasing c-b type properties in Austin, TX. Which has been one of the hottest spots in the country. So they have taught him how to purchase and thrive in a very aggressive market.
When I asked him where he got his money he told me that he syndicated all his deals from LU members, saying that he has found all his investment members through their meetings. So I think in his scenario the $500 or whatever amount he has invested has been paid for many times over. He is doing really well with around 200 units under management.
To me if you are the type of person that needs a little more direction or someone to help you get past the analysis paralysis $500 dollars and LU membership with a mentor may do the trick.
I honestly believe that all the education and some can be gathered here from BP, so you certainly don't have to join anything else. You just have to put all your hard earned knowledge to work.
Thanks to all that have participated in the discussion. I have listened to the LU radio show and attended the 2 day class 6 months ago. I have been on BP (Plus) for about 4 months. I see the benefits of both. In my situation I would like to start out as a passive investor in a MF deal. I know how to do that with LU if I join the PIG program. If I don't join LU I am not sure how I would meet people, lead investors, to be an investor in their deal. If you have any ideas I would appreciate the information. I think LU has a solid business model and you hear it over and over again in the radio show and it is reinforced in the the 2 day class. At BP I hear many different situations and many different solutions. Both have value to me, but as far as actually getting something done, I am leaning toward LU.
So this is why Josh says I'm only a mini-guru, seeing that I sell CFFU for $295. I really need to up my game y'all...:)
Dude called me the other week and said he paid $20,000 for a flipping coaching program. I about **** my pants right then and there.
I need to charge more. I wouldn't need to syndicate....
Originally posted by @Scott Lymburner:
If I don't join LU I am not sure how I would meet people, lead investors, to be an investor in their deal. If you have any ideas I would appreciate the information.
I've both invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into deals of people I've met on BP, and I've borrowed hundreds of thousands of dollars from people on BP.
BP has about 200,000 members, many of them looking for money and/or partners. If you can't find someone to invest with here, you're not looking very hard...
Originally posted by @Nick B.:
@Lee Reeves, for '@' tag to work you need to press '@' and then start typing a person's name. Then pick it from the list below.
Back to LU. I attended their free workshop and a case study event. I was not impressed. The workshop was not "eye opening" despite of what Steve likes to say. It was the same basic stuff that I already new without even reading a single book on the subject. I talked to mentors and asked how many properties they had. One had 4 another one 10. Then I did a little due diligence on them (checked public records) and found that one had 2 and another one had 5. Maybe I was not looking hard enough or maybe they were ... exaggerating. I don't know.
On a case study there was an elderly couple with their first SF deal that took 3 months to rehab and no renters at the time of the presentation. Yet they were talking about cash flow from expected rent but not counting maintenance or vacancies. I felt sorry for them.
In MF nomination there was another couple that presented a 30+ apartment complex with NOI of $160K/year. However, that NOI was split 5 or 6 ways leaving only $20K for the presenters. They also happened to manage the property for another $50K. Not bad but far cry from passive income.
That's why I am generally skeptical about LU even though I want to give them benefit of the doubt.
I am a new LU member and am very skeptical. the program is expensive and limited to one model for SF and one for MF. Still in search of a local real estate club that is more interested in providing quality education to its members without the hefty price tag.