Lifestyles Unlimited, Inc vs. Biggerpockets - Which is the best bang for your buck

[Donald Hendricks]

I got this screenshot from an email that I got today.

For those of you that don't know, Lifestyles Unlimited is an investor "mentoring" group out of Texas that boast of worldwide membership.  The also have a daily hour long "radio show", which is actually a paid advertisement, on numerous radio stations and can be heard in podcast format as well.  They have three levels of membership that they constantly are trying to upgrade you to in a series of sales pitches.   The lowest level, the Financial Freedom Membership is $500 for the first 2 years (can't buy 1 year) and $250 each year after.  The other 2 membership levels are below.  The Challenge is for single family investors and the Preferred is for multi-family.  They prohibit challenge members from participating in any multi-family group deals, even if only as a passive investor.

If you don't know what BiggerPockets is, uhhh... Well, you are here,, take a look around and join in, it is FREE!!!  If you care to upgrade to take advantage of some of the extras, the PLUS membership is $90.00 a year and the PRO membership is $290.00 a year.

Lets compare:

$8000.00  vs. $90.00 a year = 88.888888 years of BiggerPockets PLUS membership

$18000.00 vs. $290.00 a year = 62.086 years of BiggerPockets PRO membership

Lifestyles Unlimited is open 8-5 mon-fri with limited staff to assist you to answer your questions.

BiggerPockets is open 24/7/365 with over 200,000 members available to answer your questions.

You decide.

[Ben Hughes]

I will say I've learned a great deal from LU and BP.  I like them both.  BP is great because it's free info and LU is great because I have a face to talk things through with.  I do have issues with LU saying they will find you deals and that you can retire in 2-5 years.  Their deals to me just seem like left over's which they didn't want and the numbers are almost always wrong.  Retire in 2-5 years won't happen unless you already have a good deal of money sitting in the bank.  I wish they would teach more about wholesaling and building up cash reserves.  BP is awesome that I can be on here all day at work reading everyone's post and gaining some good knowledge for free.  Whatever works YOU is the way to go.

[Nick B.]

@Ben Hughes, are you a $500 member or higher?

[Greg H.]

@Lee Reeves  I had no idea LU was a university. Who are y'all playing in football this weekend ? And yes I did go to college. The University of Texas.  Heard of it ?

[Ben Hughes]

Originally posted by @Nick B.:

@Ben Hughes, are you a $500 member or higher?

 I was a Challenge member until a couple of months ago.  Now I am just at the entry level member.

[Wade G.]

I am a past member of LU and a current member of RICH club in Houston. I think both BP and LU are great to be involved in. You don't know what you don't know so you just have to keep all avenues of education open. Regarding LU, as a beginner SFH investor I would recommend joining at the $500 level. There is a lot of good information to learn. I cannot speak about their MF levels of membership since I have no MF properties. Now having said that, I think LU is a little disingenuous regarding cash flow. They fail to ever mention anything about vacancies and repairs and the costs involved. Their cash flow is anything after paying PITI. I know they have strategies for not ever having any vacancies or repairs but I have yet to see it work out that way in real life.

[Lee Reeves]

Originally posted by @Greg H.:

@Lee Reeves  I had no idea LU was a university. Who are y'all playing in football this weekend ? And yes I did go to college. The University of Texas.  Heard of it ?

Why do you have to be like that?  It wasn't me who wondered why one would pay for something he could get for free with all the information out there in the world.  Is it not true that you can access all the information that a university teaches - for free?  Way to avoid answering the point of my message.

[Ned Carey]

Ladies and gentlemen please keep it respectful.  Lets keep the comments about the subject at hand, not about the posters themselves.

Ned Carey

Moderator

[Eric Tait]

I can speak about LU as I started as a basic member $500 and then upgraded to the Preferred level to become educated on the multifamily side.  While yes, the information on BP is free, I do not see anyone who can offer as comprehensive a program in evaluating, financing, due diligence, purchasing, operating, and eventually disposing of large multifamily assets.   Some of the benefit is that you have ready access as either a passive investor or potential lead investor to people who have been trained on how multifamily investing works as well as a team that will hold your hand through every step of the process.  

Like all things in life, the 80/20 principle exists, same with member of Lifestyles Unlimited. But I can say hands down, that they are the best program that I have ever come in contact with for real estate investing.

[J Scott]

I'm a BiggerPockets trained investor.  Other than a BP membership, a few books and a wasted $69 on a seminar when I first started, I haven't spent anything on education, and pretty much everything I learned early on was here on BiggerPockets or networking in real life with other BP members.

I've flipped 70+ houses and have partnered on and helped others flip another 100+ houses.  I've done single family flips, notes (without any paid training), mobile homes, rentals and small multi-family deals.  I've made 7-figure offers on 200+ unit multi-family deals as well (though I haven't yet gotten any).

Nothing wrong with paid training when the cost is outweighed by the value, but if anyone tells you that you can't be successful without paid training, I'm proof that they are wrong.  I started in this business with absolutely no real estate or construction experience, and I still don't have much of either compared to a lot of people here...

[Ben Hughes]

Originally posted by @Lee Reeves:

Originally posted by @Greg H.:

@Lee Reeves  I had no idea LU was a university. Who are y'all playing in football this weekend ? And yes I did go to college. The University of Texas.  Heard of it ?

Why do you have to be like that?  It wasn't me who wondered why one would pay for something he could get for free with all the information out there in the world.  Is it not true that you can access all the information that a university teaches - for free?  Way to avoid answering the point of my message.

 And I graduated from Harvard.  Ever heard of it?  I'm very smart.

[Nick B.]

Originally posted by @Eric Tait:

I can speak about LU as I started as a basic member $500 and then upgraded to the Preferred level to become educated on the multifamily side.  .

 Eric, does $500 program have enough information to do a MF deal? Are $500 members allowed to participate in MF deals of PIG members as passive investors? 

Thanks

Nick

[Doug McLeod]

Disclosure: LU member (PIG level)

@Nick B.  - The basic membership gives you access to the 2-day seminar: one day on SF, one day on MF - and then phone consultation on any SF deals you need advice on.  Only PIG membership gives you access to the lead investors for getting in on passive deals. Nothing prevents $500 members from attempting MF or finding lead investors outside MF.  There are lots of tire kickers and crackpots who come to LU like every other RE group - some even plop down 12-15k for the PIG membership and come to lots of events but never actually take action. Opening up the MF stuff to crackpots and tire kickers with no serious money invested would frankly be unmanageable (IMHO). 

We have so far only done SFR (4 purchases his year, 5th under contract just today), but we also have been taking advantage of the 200 hours of online video recorded classes on both MF and SF business models and have participated in MF road trips (both educational and acquisition trips) and participated in due diligence for other members (lease audits, unit walk-throughs) and have met with various lead investors to pick their brains.

I was worried at first about whether I'd get value for the $12k PIG membership. I'm not anymore.  I see a shift to MF properties on the horizon in for us in 1-2 years if not sooner. 

I agree the best practices are available on BP, but agree with @Lee Reeves that they are hard to find or distinguish from risky or dumb ideas that are also on BP.  LU provides education, mentoring (especially when you do MF with them, but also for SF), and yes- even motivation, which is not a bad thing. Those who succeed are those who take action on what they learn (a recurring theme on BP podcast "famous four").  That's true for members of any group or program - LU or BP or otherwise. But my experience with LU is that their approach  to SF and MF investing is very sound. Not sexy, but very powerful for building wealth. Sometimes packaging makes the difference for folks. 

Don't think you need LU? Fine - take action and go build some wealth with what you learn on BP or elsewhere. Having trouble sorting through a bizillion posts on BP and figuring out where to start? Try LU. It is not an either or proposition. I choose both. 

[Brandon Eleazer]

Just compare the content of the Podcasts. LU repeats the same phrases and only gives two guys' opinions. Based on the forums and Podcasts: BP wins hands down.

[Doug McLeod]

@Brandon Eleazer  - LU podcasts are clearly teasers for their education and mentoring programs, but they still contain lots of good nuggets. (Some days more than others).   BP podcasts are outstanding.  The forums contain good content along with tons of crap which takes hours to sort through.  Newbies really have it rough.

[Troy Fisher]

I've met some very successful people who have done Fortune Builders, a couple WeBuyHomes Guys, and so forth and so on.  I've met some "Lindhal" (CSA?), and I've met a lot of successful I did it on my own.  

I'm a do-it-your-own guy, but my partner loves to spend money on seminars and training.  We all learn differently.  We all find motivation in different places.  Warren Buffett graduated with a Masters Degree from Columbia. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard.  Both wildly successful.  Each found their way their own way.  That's what we do in Real Estate too.  We find our own way.

[J Scott]

I've always said that paid training makes sense when the cost of the training is outweighed by the value of training.  In theory, it shouldn't be difficult to determine whether a particular set of training provides appropriate value -- you should be able to look at the results of the trainees to see if a typical earns more than the cost of the training.  

The problem is, I've yet to find a paid training course that will publish their numbers.  Certainly, if they could substantiate that they are turning out a high percentage of successful investors, they would flaunt this data; yet I don't see any of them that do.  I find that suspect, and likely indicative of the fact that the numbers are probably low.

Btw, the other way to evaluate is via empirical data -- for example, look at the number of people who come to a place like BP, post that they are joining a particular program and then follow their success (or lack thereof).  

Empirically speaking, it's appeared to me over the 7 years I've been a BP member that the bulk of wannabe investors who come here indicating they are going to try some high-priced training, and then we never hear from them again.  It may be that they're so successful they don't have time to update us; or, perhaps, they move on from investing and don't care to come back and tell us.

I know which of those seems more likely, which is way -- empirically speaking -- I tend to believe the high-priced training isn't worth the cost to the typical trainee.  

[Lee Reeves]

@J Scott If my experience here has been any example, I think those who have been asked about their training program and actually responded usually get the street gang "knockout game" treatment here on BP.  

Maybe because it's human nature to deride those who have made a different choice than the one you (royal "you") have made.

I could've gone on with my life and my REI after my first post on this thread and been just fine. But I think that would have just fed the bias.

I do think that most others make the opposite choice - what do they have to prove here anyway?  If they are an active member of LU, you have plenty of positive interaction and don't need BP (where negative interaction seems to be the norm), unlike those who only join BP and may need or want to be on the forums.  Not knocking it, only explaining it.

[Greg H.]

@Lee Reeves 

First of all I want to apologize For the football comment. I was pissed about the not going to college comment 

You have several people on here who have done dozens if not hundreds of flips and buy and holds. Why would you dismiss any criticisms from people that have the experience and maybe a different strategy that would cost a potential investor nothing ?  What is the philosophy of LU ? I think we can all agree that the radio show is an infomercial and offers very little substance

Personally, I believe there is NO substitute for experience and " going through the muck" as you say breeds a better level of understanding and success.  For example, I would trust my contractor on structural issues long before I would trust a recent graduate with an engineering degree. FYI , he is Hispanic and speaks very little English but has spent 20+ years in the trenches .  

[J Scott]

Originally posted by @Lee Reeves:

I do think that most others make the opposite choice - what do they have to prove here anyway?  If they are an active member of LU, you have plenty of positive interaction and don't need BP (where negative interaction seems to be the norm), unlike those who only join BP and may need or want to be on the forums.  Not knocking it, only explaining it.

Like I said, if the value outweighs the cost for the majority of students, I'm all for it.  My gut tells me that's not the case, but I'm open to some hard data -- does LU make available numbers on how many of their students do deals and how many deals they do?

I'm just curious, as I know I'd certainly make that information available if I were running a paid coaching program that I believed in...

[Steve Babiak]

Originally posted by @Ben Hughes:

Originally posted by @Lee Reeves:

Originally posted by @Greg H.:

@Lee Reeves  I had no idea LU was a university. Who are y'all playing in football this weekend ? And yes I did go to college. The University of Texas.  Heard of it ?

Why do you have to be like that?  It wasn't me who wondered why one would pay for something he could get for free with all the information out there in the world.  Is it not true that you can access all the information that a university teaches - for free?  Way to avoid answering the point of my message.

 And I graduated from Harvard.  Ever heard of it?  I'm very smart.

Here's a story about another Harvard grad, showing that smarts and education don't always add up to the result you might expect (not knocking you personally BTW so please don't take it that way):

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/special_packages...

[Waylon Themer]

In my opinion the two programs are complementary and if you are going to compare best bang for buck you need to stick to $500 LU only as BP dies not purport to offer the same opportunities as the more expensive memberships at LU.  To answer the best bang for buck question, Bigger Pockets free membership is hands down the best bang for buck as it does not even cost a buck.  In my limited experience with the $500 membership at LU, the face to face access to real life local people via networking events etc. cannot be matched by bigger pockets currently.  However, I have found the information on bigger pockets to be superior in comparison to lifestyles.  I have no experience with the more expensive memberships at lifestyles.  I have simply heard mixed reviews.  BP is my go to knowledge tool.  Lifestyles is my go to networking tool.

[Ben Hughes]

Originally posted by @Steve Babiak:

Here's a story about another Harvard grad, showing that smarts and education don't always add up to the result you might expect (not knocking you personally BTW so please don't take it that way):

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/special_packages...

 No worries Steve.  I was just trying to be funny.  Real estate investors come from all walks of life.

[Ben Hughes]

Originally posted by @Waylon Themer:

In my opinion the two programs are complementary and if you are going to compare best bang for buck you need to stick to $500 LU only as BP dies not purport to offer the same opportunities as the more expensive memberships at LU.  To answer the best bang for buck question, Bigger Pockets free membership is hands down the best bang for buck as it does not even cost a buck.  In my limited experience with the $500 membership at LU, the face to face access to real life local people via networking events etc. cannot be matched by bigger pockets currently.  However, I have found the information on bigger pockets to be superior in comparison to lifestyles.  I have no experience with the more expensive memberships at lifestyles.  I have simply heard mixed reviews.  BP is my go to knowledge tool.  Lifestyles is my go to networking tool.

 I think that is fairly spot on in my opinion.  I have gained lots of knowledge from both.  I think I get more honest opinions on BP though.

[Nick B.]

Originally posted by @Doug McLeod:

Disclosure: LU member (PIG level)

@Nick B.  - The basic membership gives you access to the 2-day seminar: one day on SF, one day on MF - and then phone consultation on any SF deals you need advice on.  Only PIG membership gives you access to the lead investors for getting in on passive deals. 

So, if a basic member finds out about a PIG deal in the making, asks to participate and brings his share of downpayment money, he would be rejected because he did not pay PIG fee? That does not make sense to me. Why would a lead investor reject someone with money to invest?

What if 10 basic members with 100K each want to buy a large apartment complex? I would see them paying $18K once (only 1.8% of their downpayment) for consulting or mentoring. That is fair. But each paying $18K for the same?! That's 18% and they now have to make 22% just to break even? Something doesn't add up here...

There are other ways to prevent tire kickers from joining (e.g. knowledge testing, asking for proof of investable money, etc.) but I don't think LU would be interested in these techniques as they would reduce the number of potential members.

But you could've bought these 5 SFRs with basic membership, couldn't you?

Why should you pay for helping other members to conduct audit or walk-through, let alone to meet with leads? You should get paid for doing that or at least do it for free to gain knowledge. Again this does not make sense.

So, you paid upfront but have not gotten what you paid for (an MF deal)? For 12K (or 18K now) you would expect LU to dig the dirt and find the best deal possible immediately. Why else would you pay such a high fee?

I don't mind to pay but only for the actual performance and not for the promise. Everyone involved in a typical real estate transaction gets paid after the close. Why should a mentoring group be paid upfront an exuberant fee without any deal on the horizon?

[Andrew Syrios]

I read somewhere that some company, maybe Intel, was trying to sell a new processor or whatever, and they listed it for something like $2.50. No one bought it. Then they jacked up the price to several hundred and they sold like hot cakes. People just didn't think it could be any good if it was so cheap. I think this is sort of the psychology here as to why anyone would pay for Lifestyles Unlimited. I mean, those prices are absolutely ridiculous given not only what's on BP, but all of the rest of the stuff over the Internet.