First Long DIstance BRRR! Foundation + Basement Water Issues REO

Rehabbing & House Flipping
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First Long DIstance BRRR! Foundation + Basement Water Issues REO

Ryan Zomorodi
Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 63 votes

Hey BP Community-

I'm working on my first BRRR - and it's turning out to be quite the challenge.

1925 built multifamily property in Cleveland, OH, purchased as an REO (AS-IS, buyer assumes everything, no disclosures, etc.). This property needed everything. Foundation, electric, plumbing, HVAC, Roof, Siding repairs, interior, the list goes on.

My question is concerning the wet basement (cement block), which has a bowing wall, peeling paint, and water seepage, primarily where the floor meets the wall. The moisture increases every time it rains, which shows itself seeping through small cracks and puddling on the floor. Very musty in the basement and possible signs of mildew.

My interpretation on the situation- it appears that the underground drainage around the perimeter has failed, causing water buildup and stagnation underground, This causes pressure to the walls, and has resulted in a bowed wall and water intrusion into the basement. Note: the basement floor is poured concrete, and is uneven in places, where it seems like the soil underneath has washed away and caused the floor to settle in some areas (not a huge concern at this point).

I've had a number of contractors and waterproofing companies evaluate the situation and suggest anything from interior water proofing and wall repair (I-beams or carbon fiber straps), to exterior waterproofing and rebuilding the foundation wall.

From my research, it doesn't seem that interior waterproofing will solve the problem, and the I-beams are only a temporary fix vs. rebuilding the wall and exterior waterproof. The bricks aren't in great shape, so I'm considering rebuilding the wall. There is a deck in the back and front of the house, and the sides of the house are very close to the neighbors, creating obstacles for the work. 

Just wanted to throw this out there and see if anyone has seen these issue on a house before, and what they did to solve it. Please review these pictures and let me know if you have another opinion on what could be going on, as well as the best long-term solution.

Thank you,

Ryan Zomorodi

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Christopher Meis
Vendor · Norwood, MN · Member since 2016 · 55 posts · 27 votes
9y

@Ryan Zomorodi I am a home inspector and I see water penetration and foundation movement issues all the time from lack of proper gutters and downspouts. Your roof can gather thousands of gallons of water from a single inch of rain and dump it at your foundation. @Adam Abdel-Hafez had some great ideas for you! I would add that if there are large trees near the home, you may want to add a professional gutter cover like gutter helmet. As a rental the gutters will probably not get cleaned regularly and continue to cause issues. Additionally I recommend rigid downspouts extending at least 6' from the foundation, corrugated extensions fill up with leaves and debris and overflow at the downspout connection next to the foundation. I also recommend having a look at the overall grade of the property, if there are low areas next to the foundation water can still collect there. Contact a licensed landscaper to improve the grade away from the foundation.

Good luck with your project, please feel free to contact me with questions.

~Chris

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  • Ryan Zomorodi
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 63 votes
    9y
    0Reply
  • Adam Abdel-Hafez
    Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 236 posts · 91 votes
    9y
    Ryan Zomorodi As with any water intrusion issue, first you need to look at the gutters and downspouts before anything else. Don't go to any kind of waterproofing company until your gutters and downspouts are working properly. They will tell you to wrap the house, add French drain system, etc and still not fix the problem. You need to ask the following: is the fascia attached properly? Is there a drip edge? Is the gutter attached flush with the fascia? Is there a slope on the gutters leading to the downspout? Do all of the downspouts have elbow and drain pipes? All of this needs to be addressed before anything else. Here in Atlanta, 90% of water intrusion issues I see involve gutters and downspouts. As far as everything else, since this is a rental and looks like that is a unfinished space, I would just leave it as is.
    1Reply
  • Oren K.
    Rental Property Investor · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2012 · 538 posts · 298 votes
    9y

    Doing any work on the inside only mitigates (reduces) the secondary damage of the water that has already come inside. It also potentially (depending on the work) require some additional long term maintenance (e.g. sump pump replacement, collapsed interior weeping system).

    If at all possible any water penetration should be addressed at the source on the outside by digging down to the foundation, sealing all cracks, putting in a waterproof barrier, dimple board, stone, etc. 

    If you already digging down that far, you don't want to have to do it again in your lifetime :).

    0Reply
  • Ryan Zomorodi
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 63 votes
    9y

    @Adam Abdel-Hafez Great advice. My answer to those questions is, the facia seems to be properly attached in most places, not sure if there is a drip edge, and the gutters are in need of repair. 

    I am installing a new roof and new gutter system on Monday, so all of those initial questions will be corrected or addressed before moving forward with waterproofing.

    Given this water issue has persisted to a point of a bowing wall and seepage (over 2 years), would you think fixing the gutters and drainage to be sufficient in drying out the basement and preventing further foundation damage? How urgent would you think this situation is to fix (ie allowing me enough time to observe the effects of new gutters)?  I would think as long as the water seepage persist, the problem has not been corrected.

    Also, if leaving as-is, should the possibility of mold be a concern in regards to the health of any occupants?

    Thanks!

    Ryan

    0Reply
  • Ryan Zomorodi
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 63 votes
    9y

    @Oren K. Exactly, that is the same conclusion I reached after further understanding the problem and solution set. It's going to be the largest expense on the home, so I appreciate any outside input as I make the decision on what to do. Have you ever done this type of work? I'm getting quotes around 27K for 140 linear feet of external waterproofing + wall rebuild. Curious what your work detailed. Thanks!

    0Reply
  • Adam Abdel-Hafez
    Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 236 posts · 91 votes
    9y

    that's great news that you're getting a new roof and gutters.  That should take care of all of my question, except you will probably need to add drain pipes (cheap corrugated pipe 2-4ft long will suffice) or downspout splashes (little more expensive) as the gutter guys don't typically do that. 

    Yes, the gutters/downspouts issues could very well cause those problems. If water was just sitting around the foundation, then that would cause a lot of lateral pressure against those walls. For example, retaining walls typically have weep holes just for this reason, so that water can run through those pipes and not build up pressure therefore causing the wall to fail. 

    As an example, one of the property management companies I work with had a house that had water coming into the basement causing flooding and mold throughout. Now, the owner had previously gotten some water proofing done for about $3k, yet the problem still persisted. So, I headed out there to check out the problem and noticed that there were downspouts without elbows (water running right on the foundation), gutters not secured/sloped properly, and the downspouts that did have elbows did run extend far enough to run the water away from the home. So I repaired all of that for about $150 and put a dehumidifier in the basement (just to dry out the basement, I picked it up a week later) and no problem since. 

    1Reply
  • Justin Stanfield
    Investor · North Richland Hills, TX · Member since 2016 · 167 posts · 57 votes
    9y

    I am going to write a post about this very soon. It could be the roof or gutters as already mentioned by @@Adam Abdel-Hafez.  I would suggest two things in addition to that.  

    First, look for water marks in the attic.  They will look like this

    or 

    Even if you are going to get the roof replaced, and new gutters, it is still useful to know what the issue is.  So, I would suggest that you ask the roofs to find you a leak on the roof, with the assumption it's there, and see what happens.  Second, not having a drip edge can cause problems when it rains and its windy; and then water blow into the space between the wall and the roof goes down to the basement. 

    Also, the downsprouts should be at least 50 feet away from the foundation.  Sometimes when the water comes out, it will still find its way back.

    0Reply
  • Ryan Zomorodi
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 63 votes
    9y

    This is really excellent advice @Adam Abdel-Hafez. So what I can do after the new gutters are installed is attach an elbow like Picture A and then link it up with a corrugated pipe such as Picture B, and then direct it away from the foundation. Is this correct? 

    I'm sure every house is unique, so I'll need to see what length (4 feet or 50 feet) is an appropriate length for the corrugated pipe.

    This solution, combined with the new roof, should cover the sides of the house and direct water away from the house. I don't see any reason for any other leaks to occur (except for plumbing - hope not!).

    I will definitely place a dehumidifier in the basement. Any recommended models or variations for this?

    Is it safe to say that the water that is already penetrating the wall will dry up over time? Or should I be doing something around the perimeter to divert the moisture? I don't see any weep holes in the basement walls.

    Picture A - Buy 1 for Each Downspout

    Picture B - 4-50 Feet of Corrugated Pipe Per Downspout

    0Reply
  • Ryan Zomorodi
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 63 votes
    9y

    @Justin Stanfield I will definitely read your post when you publish it. Thanks for your response.

    The Attic was converted to what is now a third unit (or master connected to Unit 2), and there are definitely major signs of roof leaks present. 

    As part of the work, the roofers will replace any rotted wood as discovered when ripping off the old roof. Drip edge will be installed.

    So after this, the roof should not cause any internal leaks. I'll finish up the cosmetic work in the 3rd unit attic once this has been done.

    Best,

    Ryan

    0Reply
  • Adam Abdel-Hafez
    Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 236 posts · 91 votes
    9y
    Yes, those are both pieces you need. 50ft is very excessive to me, I have never done more than like 10 ft. Just make sure there is a pitch on it and it ends somewhere the ground goes downhill and away from the house. No need to complicate things. In regards to a dehumidifier, any will do. I just used one from Home Depot. In regards to the walls, I would just kilz it and watch to see if anything other damage comes back.
    1Reply
  • Phil Earley
    Property Manager · Cumming, GA · Member since 2015 · 261 posts · 199 votes
    9y

    We suggest that dehumidifiers are hard line to the exterior of home so that there is no need to have to empty the tray all the time.  In Atlanta, tenants go away for a week on vacation and come back to mold because the automatic shut off tripped.  

    2Reply
  • Christopher Meis
    Vendor · Norwood, MN · Member since 2016 · 55 posts · 27 votes
    9y

    @Ryan Zomorodi I am a home inspector and I see water penetration and foundation movement issues all the time from lack of proper gutters and downspouts. Your roof can gather thousands of gallons of water from a single inch of rain and dump it at your foundation. @Adam Abdel-Hafez had some great ideas for you! I would add that if there are large trees near the home, you may want to add a professional gutter cover like gutter helmet. As a rental the gutters will probably not get cleaned regularly and continue to cause issues. Additionally I recommend rigid downspouts extending at least 6' from the foundation, corrugated extensions fill up with leaves and debris and overflow at the downspout connection next to the foundation. I also recommend having a look at the overall grade of the property, if there are low areas next to the foundation water can still collect there. Contact a licensed landscaper to improve the grade away from the foundation.

    Good luck with your project, please feel free to contact me with questions.

    ~Chris

    4Reply
  • Ryan Zomorodi
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 63 votes
    9y

    @Adam Abdel-Hafez  Sounds great, I'm going to follow all of these steps. If this ends up working out and eliminating the wet basement, it's going to be a big win. 

    @Phil Earley Thanks for that tip, a very wise suggestion that I will follow.

    @Christopher Meis Your response was excellent. Thanks for the pictures. I am having gutter guards installed. It may be tricky with a rigid downspout because the house is in very close proximity to the neighbors yard. After your comments I prefer the rigid type, however I may need to use corrugated pipes or splash blocks to fit the space. Will stay in touch.

    To All - How would this issue effect a Refinance on the property? Let's say the moisture is gone, I treat for mold, and paint the walls. Would you think that the lender would require that this foundation crack / bowing wall be corrected to fund the loan?

    How much does the visual condition of the house affect the lender's appraisal? (ie. chipped paint, cracked driveway)

    0Reply
  • Adam Abdel-Hafez
    Contractor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 236 posts · 91 votes
    9y

    The key to rental properties is always do the simple repairs first and then if those don't work then to go to more extensive repairs. I would say the exception to this is HVAC, roofing, and gutters. 

    It's funny how you mentioned appraisals, almost all of it is visual. I've even had my loan officer tell me on a repair I was not agreeing to do for a buyer to just make it look good for a picture. Now, they will check the functionality of systems, but they will heavily look at cosmetic items as well.

    0Reply
  • John Weidner
    Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 710 posts · 200 votes
    9y

    gutters then an interior drain tile system with sump should clear it up

    Gutters probably won't entirely solve it 

    0Reply
  • Ryan Zomorodi
    OP
    Flipper/Rehabber · San Diego, CA · Member since 2015 · 133 posts · 63 votes
    9y

    @Adam Abdel-Hafez Interesting. In that case I'll definitely want to paint exterior before refinancing.

    Update: I spoke with another waterproofing contractor who surprisingly did not recommend waterproofing, like all the other companies have recommended. He told me that the soil around and outside the affected foundation walls has settled. He proposes to bring in more soil to fill in that area and landscape it to divert the water away.

    This, in combination with the new roof, gutters, and downspout extensions - plus sealing the cracks and painting over the wall with Drylock - should do the trick.

    In regards to the bowing, he said I-beams are necessary to prevent further bowing. It's currently bowing 1.5 inches out from center. He's quoted me $2650 to I-Beam the one wall, plus $300 for the landscaping. It sounds like I'll need to do the I-beams regardless, I just want to solve the water problem before putting up the beams.

    0Reply
  • Justin Stanfield
    Investor · North Richland Hills, TX · Member since 2016 · 167 posts · 57 votes
    9y

    Sounds right.

    Sometimes braces are enough depending on the situation.

    0Reply
  • Chris Field
    Investor · Milford, CT · Member since 2015 · 200 posts · 69 votes
    9y

    I was going to say grading until I read your last post. The vast majority of water issues are caused by improper grading. Get the water to move away from the house first and your problems will improve. 

    0Reply
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