Flipper/Rehabber · Seminole, FL · Member since 2010 · 859 posts · 316 votes
I was listening to talk radio today and they discussed corporate tax rates. I was surprised to learn that our country pays some of the highest in Corporate taxes in the World. Of course they were talking about how everyone is trying not to show a profit to avoid paying 35% of them at the end of the year.
Even more surprising to is when you compare our taxes to that of a "socialist" nation, their taxes are lower than ours!
Canada looks mighty nice if you look at this chart:
Investor · Westminster, CO · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
15y
Lots of banter here, but let's cut to the chase, down to the marrow. Corporations have to spend millions on accountants and lawyers to keep from paying millions in taxes (finding loopholes, keeping multiple books, etc...). Why not just ELIMINATE corporate tax, make the corporations pay dividends to individual investors and tax it then? The US Tax Law is a #*)(%#)# JOKE!
Real Estate Investor · SouthCentral, IA · Member since 2010 · 97 posts · 45 votes
15y
Taxes are so high because the government is so big and bloated and spends so much and has for decades. The biggest expendature is defense. We pay all those taxes and congress still has to print or borrow billions every month.
Real Estate Investor · Fishers, IN · Member since 2009 · 408 posts · 196 votes
15y
Taxes are so high and ridiculous because our government is self-serving and is run by elected officials who couldn't run a hot dog stand let alone a city, state or country.
Oh wait, I would write more, but I have to go write another check to the government.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
15y
Not much to add to the above, but I'll reiterate it. Corporations in this country are being penalized for the government's wasteful spending, both on defense (as John pointed out), as well as on social programs, education and lots of other areas riddled with bureaucracy.
While I'm a big believer in all these things (defense, social programs and education), we're throwing too much money into these areas and getting way too little in return. I don't believe any of these things is inherently bad...what's bad are the people managing the money...the politicians.
Most people here wouldn't rent to someone who had a bankruptcy, foreclosure or bad credit score, but we'll happily elect politicians who don't know the first thing about economics, money management or reading budgets/financial statements.
Real Estate Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2009 · 339 posts · 126 votes
15y
I know you are talking about corporate tax but you are also talking about Canada. Over there the sales tax is insane. Depending on where you are at you pay anywhere from 10-20% on everything you buy!!
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
15y
Yes, Tom...we know that you need to turn EVERY SINGLE thread into a partisan rant...it can never be the fault of those on both sides of the political spectrum, right?
I wasn't going to go that direction, but now that you've led us there, let me point out the obvious hypocrisy of your assertions...the "Elephants" in the room, if you will...
Originally posted by Tom Cullen:
OTOH, who politically has consistently made many of the arguments made above? That, after all, it is "we" that actually pays corporate tax, and that the US corporate tax rates are too high?
I know!
Those who tend to argue that the tax rates are too high are the same financially-challenged people who also argue that we need to spend $700B per year on Defense and a couple trillion more fighting wars against countries that -- despite what you might have heard on Fox News -- posed no immediate threat to us and had nothing to do with 9/11.
If you look at the numbers, Defense accounts for more than half of all discretionary spending in this country. And we spend about 6 times as much on Defense than any other country on the planet!
It's a black hole for our tax dollars.
Anyone who knows how to balance a checkbook knows that you can't keep spending more and more money, cut revenue and still have things balance out...it's just not possible.
Unfortunately, for many politicians, it's worth mortgaging our future to ensure that we have the capacity to destroy the planet 11 times over...as apparently the ability to destroy the planet 9 times over just wasn't enough...
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
15y
Btw, if my answer above wasn't complete enough, I have another answer to Tom's question...
It's the same people who say that it's not the government's job to provide public health care to Americans, but has no problem approving budgets that include $300B for Medicare (um, that's free health care) and another $100B for the VA (more free health care!)...
Between my post above and this one, hopefully the hypocrisy that is exacerbating the budget problem is a bit more clear...
Flipper/Rehabber · Louisville, KY · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
15y
You guys are being too myopic by just looking at corporate tax rates. While our tax rates may look higher than most, the actual dollars corps pay are not outrageous at all. This is because of the loopholes and subsidies built in.
That is why you hear about Exxon and GE paying no taxes some years, etc.
From Mother Jones, " In 2008, the New York Times discovered that one in four of the US's largest corporations regularly pay no income tax to the IRS, and billions are lost. Exxon's not alone: The Forbes article points out that General Electric avoided paying any income tax last year on profits of $10.3 billion."
Google paid 2.4% tax last year. $60 Billion in loopholes. Doesn't seem excessive to me.
If you have a corp in the US and are paying too much in tax, you aren't very smart. Most corps don't end up paying anywhere near the stated rates.
It is the same mistake people make when they look at individual tax rates. The rate is not the bottom line. We have more deductions and loopholes than most countries and we have no VAT. So the bottom line tax dollars that the average American actually pays is way down on the world rankings.
Plus the rate people look at is only the marginal rate. You don't pay that on the whole amount. I am in the 36% rate but have never in my life paid more that 20% total tax and often less than 10%.
We actually get a pretty sweet deal. That is why people want to live here and why so few Americans give up their citizenship to avoid taxes.
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
15y
I agree with much of what Eric wrote. The tax system in this country is stupid and way too complicated.
We should just get rid of all of the credits, deductions, etc. and tax people at one rate. I spend so much energy each year on taxes that it is ridiculous. This is all wasted effort for something that could be far less complicated. The politicians have too much control over our lives right now. Get rid of this abortion of a tax system and replace it with something simple.
Flipper/Rehabber · Seminole, FL · Member since 2010 · 859 posts · 316 votes
15y
What are the loopholes they are using then? That's the billion dollar question I guess Eric. i know they spend the last quarter burying profits into write offs.
How can Ge show those profits without paying taxes? All corps are taxed on net profits right?
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
15y
Originally posted by Jimmy C.:
Are there going to be new Republicans worth voting for? Ones that will attempt to fix spending problems and tax burdens like these?
Are there any "Progressives" (or whatever) with solutions to really help the economy?
Who do I vote for? ........ Libertarians?
I am asking because I seriously want to know.
I vote for individuals. Have never done a straight party line vote and never will. However, some votes have been less desirous than other.
I have to say that after communicating with Joe Donnelly and meeting with Jackie Walorski's congressional candidate's campaign manager, it's clear that the country's best talent is not running for office. Both are decent people but they're not the apex of the talent pool. Who can blame these talented people though? Do you want your daughter going through the treatment given to Trig and Bristol Palin? Lucky for Trig he's a baby and is mentally handicapped so he doesn't understand the viscous attacks orchestrated against him by the classy, educated, sophisticated opposition.
Seriously, what person with skills good enough to be president would put up with this kind of trash "journalism"?
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
15y
Originally posted by Tim W.:
Seriously, what person with skills good enough to be president would put up with this kind of trash "journalism"?
Sarah Palin. Though most don't believe that she actually has the skills...
The better question is WHY would someone put up with it?
Unfortunately, that seems to be the case for most people who aim for that position...they're greedy and narcissistic and want more money and fame...
In Palin's case, it appears to be for the money...
Flipper/Rehabber · Seminole, FL · Member since 2010 · 859 posts · 316 votes
15y
Palin would be a mistake. It's too easy to make her look stupid (not saying she is, just sayin). Everyone still remembers Dubya, so its important the Republicans get the right candidate.
@Bryan: Is that true? Can they report larger profits than they pay tax on?
I know that certain corporations are exempt from Obamacare, so I guess anything is possible.
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
15y
Originally posted by Jimmy C.:
Palin would be a mistake. It's too easy to make her look stupid (not saying she is, just sayin). Everyone still remembers Dubya, so its important the Republicans get the right candidate.
Don't let them get to you. Your own words tell you that you know she's not stupid and that it's people trying to make her look stupid. Remember how "smart" Gore and Kerry were? It's only easy to see her as stupid when you believe those who make it their goal to do so. When you stop believing them and look at "geniuses" like Obama for what they really are you realize the emperor really is not wearing any clothes.
Remember, even one of the people in this thread who is constantly calling her stupid wasn't smart enough to figure out how to vote in the midterm election. That should tell you what you need to know.
Lender · Chicago, IL · Member since 2010 · 84 posts · 23 votes
15y
An explanation of what Eric is referring to http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html. Also consider what you get in exchange for you tax dollars as a corporation. The U.S. has one of the most developed legal structures in the world. Though you would be paying less taxes in those "socialist" countries, you would give it all back when you see the inside of a courtroom or have to pay an official's brother to do "business". A good example of this in current events is what's happening in Russia http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2010/12/khodorkovsky_verdict. If you compare U.S. tax rates with similar sized and structured countries, it is actually favorable. There is waste every where, I think it's a choice between lesser evils.
Flipper/Rehabber · Seminole, FL · Member since 2010 · 859 posts · 316 votes
15y
Yan, I appreciate your input. So Google avoided those taxes by using offshore accounts? So its easy to say that paying the 35% corporate tax was not appealing to them either. I know that it would never work to lower corporate taxes under 3%, so we can never hope Google will play by the rules, right?
I know how easy it is to set up a corporation, LLC, etc... So I can appreciate the USA for its opportunity to become self employed, or a small business owner. I just dont think the 35% rake is fair, and I think it gives no incentive for companies to show a profit.
And I understood what you meant Tim. They do a good job of making Palin look bad. That is why I think that she is not the right choice for 2012. Even if its smoke and mirrors, the bottom line is that I think people will BELIEVE she is ignorant and not capable of running the country.
My beef really isn't with corporations minimizing taxes. One of the main roles of a corporation is to maximize value for shareholders. This is done by maximizing after-tax income so tax avoidance is a key role.
My beef is that the whole system is far too complicated and is changed based on political whims. We employ far too many accountants and tax lawyers and far too few engineers and scientists in this country. People that buy goods and services from our country couldn't care less about all of this tax maze business that adds no tangible value.
Our country is in severe need of a priority realignment. One of the key things that needs to be fixed is spending less time worrying about taxation and more time worrying about providing value so that we can be competitive on a global scale.
The bureaucrats in Washington spend the bulk of their time lobbying to figure out which group they will reward with all of the tax carrots and such. True conservatives want to eliminate all of this nonsense, reduce the size of the gov-mint, and simplify life for businessmen. Faux conservatives want to legislate morality, fatten tax incentives for whoever they favor, and watch talking bobble head idiots on TV that have no idea how things work in the real world. Their whole reason for being is to keep people afraid, angry, etc. so they tune in each week to sell ad space.
The informed portion of our electorate understands that freedom is inversely proportional to how easily you are controlled. If an entertainer on a magic picture box selling ad time controls your whole political thought process you are indeed narrow minded. Unfortunately many of this forum fall into this category. Hopefully one day they will realize that the truth is in the middle and that their hyperpartisan rants reflect rather poorly on them.
Flipper/Rehabber · Seminole, FL · Member since 2010 · 859 posts · 316 votes
15y
Thanks for sharing that link. I will read it more thoroughly after some sleep. I did like this quote:
"The U.S. has one of the highest overall corporate tax rates in the industrialized world. And that rate - not tax breaks - is threatening American competitiveness, wages, and jobs."
It's interesting to hear that you consider yourself "conservative" Bryan. Perhaps you are liberal on social issues? Or just arguing with the Republicans here that think you are? I must have missed something.
Investor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2010 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
15y
I am somewhat liberal on some social issues. I am very conservative with regard to fiscal issues though and believe in free markets while recognizing the capitalism isn't perfect. In a perfect world we would have a meritocracy and little gov-mint involvement in our lives IMO. That is one of the primary reasons I despise taxes and the complexity of the system in general.
Somehow I got labeled a liberal by some of our resident extremists. The problem is that some people don't know the whole history and tend to believe them.