Underwriting STR - Looks promising but deeper evaluation shows poor return

Underwriting STR - Looks promising but deeper evaluation shows poor return

Dan H.Pro Member
Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes

This cabin is in the sierras near Giant Sequoia National Monument.

I identified a nice cabin in a nice area that I was going to offer $500k to STR it. Bonus I found a co-host with a presence in the area that would co-host it for 15%. He believes it can achieve $100k after stabilization. He has an STR that is smaller and not as nice that has T12 revenue over $90k. It is a very nice 4/3, 3100' with class A finishes.

It seems like it could be a sound investment so deserves more extensive underwriting. So I ran various scenarios with different finance options. They all show negative COC going out at least 5 years and I suspect for the life of the loan. I have purchased a negative COC property before but it had a value add and I made ~$1m in 3 years and had stabilized positive COC (so only first year forecast COC was negative). This cabin does not have a value add. I will likely be challenged to get a 1 to 1 return on adding the AC, adding an EV charger, converting a sound studio to an office, and furnishings. I refer to expenditures that return less than they cost as value subtract.

How bad is the COC? The first year my underwriting projects negative $33k in the best of my 3 finance scenarios. This is because I allocated $80k revenue (because not yet stabilized) and subtracted $10k for 2 months in off season to get STR ready (so only $70k revenue the 1st year). After the first year, I show negative $8k/year best case and negative $12k with worse scenario. You would think with a fixed rate loan the COC would improve over time but the other expenses are so large that the COC stays about the same year 2 to year 5. The primary issue is the expenses are high. It has high utilities. It has high insurance. Because it is large cabin with nice finishes, the maintenance/cap ex is high. Snow removal and fire prep add to the cost.

So my underwriting shows all return is via appreciation and equity pay down. Even including modest appreciation and equity pay down, the ROI is between 7% and 12% for a non passive holding (not good for an active holding)

I can easily afford this level of negative, but do I want to? Note this area is an area to get away. That is not my usual style of vacation. I want to do things, see things, etc. I can rest when I die.

So the return appears to rely on appreciation and equity pay down, but the sale price on this cabin is below building costs. Unlike my usual market, this area seems to have appreciation not far superior to CPI.

Complicating things is I like the property and have an itch to purchase. I have not purchased since Dec 2021 and have not gone this long without buying a property since we purchased our initial investment property.

Tell me why I should buy or not buy this property. I am leaning toward placing a competitive offer.

Thanks

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John UnderwoodPro Member
Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
1y

I would not go into an investment knowing it would have negative cashflow. 

There are plenty of investments that will make you money and have mortgage paydown.

See this reply in the discussion

13 Replies

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y

    what about first insurance ???  

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

    what about first insurance ???  

    The high fire danger probably means California Fair Plan. California Fair Plan is for high risk properties that private insurers do not want to cover. Do you think First Insurance will insure in a high fire risk locale? I allocated $500/month for insurance which is part of why such a promising revenue to cost projects such poor COC. Do you think they would cost less?

    $15k co-host, $6k insurance, $34.8k P&i (7%, 30 year DSCR), $5.5 prop tax, $12.7k utilities (mostly propane & elec), $7k maintenance/cap ex (3100' with class A finishes), cleaning $24k (8 turns/month), then the small items.

    I have decent confidence in my underwriting. I have 4 STRs including 2 for 25 years and I consulted the co-host for local cost estimates. The expenses are very high on this property for various reasons. Normally an annual STR revenue at 20% of purchase price would provide solid COC. note none of my local STRs have this good a revenue ratio; if they did I would have good cash flow on them which my cash flow on the STRs the last few years has been modest.

    I am still shocked my underwriting shows the COC to be this bad, but I have decent confidence in the underwriting. I also had the co-host look at my underwriting for a 2nd set of eyes. Besides being surprised that the numbers were not better, he had no other comment (he found zero issues).

    thanks

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Dan H.:
    Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:

    what about first insurance ???  


    The high fire danger probably means California Fair Plan. Do you think First Insurance will, insure in a high fire risk locale? I allocated $500/month for insurance which is part of why such a promising revenue to cost projects such poor COC. Do you think they would cost less?

    $15k co-host, $6k insurance, $34.8k P&i (7%, 30 year DSCR), $5.5 prop tax, $12.7k utilities (mostly propane & elec), $7k maintenance/cap ex (3100' with class A finishes), cleaning $24k (8 turns/month), then the small items.

    I have decent confidence in my underwriting. I have 4 STRs including 2 for 25 years and I consulted the co-host for local cost estimates. The expenses are very high on this property for various reasons. Normally an annual STR revenue at 20% of purchase price would provide solid COC. note none of my local STRs have this good a revenue ratio; if they did I would have good cash flow on them which my cash flow on the STRs the last few years has been modest.

    I am still shocked my underwriting shows the COC to be this bad, but I have decent confidence in the underwriting. I also had the co-host look at my underwriting for a 2nd set of eyes. Besides being surprised that the numbers were not better, he had no other comment (he found zero issues).

    thanks


    I just asked because I was hunting for a cabin just north of Tahoe but have not checked insurance yet
  • John UnderwoodPro Member
    Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    1y

    I would not go into an investment knowing it would have negative cashflow. 

    There are plenty of investments that will make you money and have mortgage paydown.

  • Michael BaumPro Member
    Olympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 8k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    1y

    Hey @Dan H. as someone who is experienced, you know not to let emotion or FOMO hinder your judgement. Don't let it control you and I am glad you asked.

    You really don't want to rely on appreciation to make up for the poor performance as a STR.

    This is too much of a risk IMHO. I am never looking for a sure thing as I don't really think they exist but I don't want to get into something that I am not sure how it will look in 3 or 5 years.

    The only way I would look at this deal is if it is perfect for getaways and relaxing for me and the family and anything I made would help pay for those experiences. You like the action of getting out so I see that is no good reason to buy.

    Cool yer jets my man. Something will come up that will make more sense. 

  • Andrew SteffensBusiness Member
    Tampa, FL · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    It is tough to find positive CoC but not impossible. A lot of my clients buying in FL are happy with minimal return but are buying for second homes, tax benefits, etc.

    I would stick with value add - with refi you can still achieve high CoC and a good equity position. The challenge is finding the deals.

    In Tampa area I am well connected as a PM and broker and have a lot of off market in addition to MLS. I would recommend networking with Brokers in the markets you like to get more deal flow

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Andrew Steffens:

    It is tough to find positive CoC but not impossible. A lot of my clients buying in FL are happy with minimal return but are buying for second homes, tax benefits, etc.

    I would stick with value add - with refi you can still achieve high CoC and a good equity position. The challenge is finding the deals.

    In Tampa area I am well connected as a PM and broker and have a lot of off market in addition to MLS. I would recommend networking with Brokers in the markets you like to get more deal flow


    I have looked at emerald coast. My underwriting shows it to be worst. The annual revenue is not 20% of the purchase price. Insurance and/or HOA are high. It does have nice destination and asan owner i like the private beach (not so good for the public).

    I have also looked at hawaii.

    It seems like sought destinations are projecting (at least with my underwriting) poor COC without performing value adds. I would rather di value adds local were i know i can do well.

    Thanks for the response.

  • V.G JasonPro Member
    Investor · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y

    Go around the nation, you'll notice this is a common trend.

    You need to bid deeper, and agents need to start pricing things more appropriately. 

    I tell the seller's outright that you won't like the bid, but I can show something. Maybe 1/10 still listened 11 months ago when I first tried, took a summer break, and now about 4/10 are listening and it's growing. 

    You just got to put a bid to you that makes sense off of 25-30% down, STRs I do less leverage but underwrite on the 28% down mark. The leverage aspect is my business, the fundamentals of the business is via the DSCR loan so it must qualify and I don't tinker to qualify.

    Every market I am turning to is like this, and every bit market I've been in is like this. It's not just localized. Nobody is really running away from the underlying affordability issues.

  • Andrew SteffensBusiness Member
    Tampa, FL · Member since 2022 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Dan H.:
    Quote from @Andrew Steffens:

    It is tough to find positive CoC but not impossible. A lot of my clients buying in FL are happy with minimal return but are buying for second homes, tax benefits, etc.

    I would stick with value add - with refi you can still achieve high CoC and a good equity position. The challenge is finding the deals.

    In Tampa area I am well connected as a PM and broker and have a lot of off market in addition to MLS. I would recommend networking with Brokers in the markets you like to get more deal flow


    I have looked at emerald coast. My underwriting shows it to be worst. The annual revenue is not 20% of the purchase price. Insurance and/or HOA are high. It does have nice destination and asan owner i like the private beach (not so good for the public).

    I have also looked at hawaii.

    It seems like sought destinations are projecting (at least with my underwriting) poor COC without performing value adds. I would rather di value adds local were i know i can do well.

    Thanks for the response.


     I know little of current market on Emerald Coast, but a lot in the Tampa area.  For my clients 15%+ yield is very achievable, maybe I find 1-2 a month that are 20%+

  • Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    1y

    Why do you have 24k in cleaning fees as expenses for an STR? Aren't the guests paying for the cleaning fees?

    When I see a 500k property that can gross 100k in rents, I have to believe that thing is going to make a boatload of cash.  But is the issue that the 100k you're describing isn't gross rents, its gross revenue? And thats why you have 24k in cleaning fees as an expense?

    I'm just more familiar with people quoting gross rents and typically assume the cleaning fees are being paid by guests. 

    On the other hand, you stated that the management firm was charging 15% and had a 15k expense.  Management doesn't get a percentage of cleaning fees so something seems off or else its just very different there than here in Illinois or Tennessee. 

    btw: Is there any way to eliminate the propane? I know that can get pricey.  But 1k a month in utilities definitely seems high. So I'm guessing thats the item.  Can you replace furnace, stove, etc with all electric and save 300 to 400 a month there? 

    I also think you can get 6.5% interest these days so that should be closer 30k a year for P&I.

    I just don't see how you can lose money like that if your gross rents are 100k on a 500k purchase price and you're putting down 20%.  Again, not unless its actually that your gross income (including cleaning fees) is 100k a year and your gross rents are actually only 75k. 

    But again, your property manager should only be charging you 15% of gross rent not of revenue (i.e. cleaning fees that guests are paying).   So at 15% of 75k, its not 15k in management fees, its 8,625 per year so there's about 6,400 in savings right there.  If you can get a loan at the 6.5%, you're saving another 5k a year off your estimates.  Now things are looking a little better.

    But I would be very interested in knowing whether the 100k a year is gross rent or gross revenue.  btw: 24k in cleaning fees seems quite a bit excessive even if it is. You calculated 8 turns a month? Thats a ton of different guest stays to average per month. Obviously you said you are very experienced so I'm sure thats based on that.  But boy does that seem like a lot of guest stays per month.   

  • Dan H.Pro Member
    OP
    Investor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    1y
    Quote from @Mike H.:

    Why do you have 24k in cleaning fees as expenses for an STR? Aren't the guests paying for the cleaning fees?

    When I see a 500k property that can gross 100k in rents, I have to believe that thing is going to make a boatload of cash.  But is the issue that the 100k you're describing isn't gross rents, its gross revenue? And thats why you have 24k in cleaning fees as an expense?

    I'm just more familiar with people quoting gross rents and typically assume the cleaning fees are being paid by guests. 

    On the other hand, you stated that the management firm was charging 15% and had a 15k expense.  Management doesn't get a percentage of cleaning fees so something seems off or else its just very different there than here in Illinois or Tennessee. 

    btw: Is there any way to eliminate the propane? I know that can get pricey.  But 1k a month in utilities definitely seems high. So I'm guessing thats the item.  Can you replace furnace, stove, etc with all electric and save 300 to 400 a month there? 

    I also think you can get 6.5% interest these days so that should be closer 30k a year for P&I.

    I just don't see how you can lose money like that if your gross rents are 100k on a 500k purchase price and you're putting down 20%.  Again, not unless its actually that your gross income (including cleaning fees) is 100k a year and your gross rents are actually only 75k. 

    But again, your property manager should only be charging you 15% of gross rent not of revenue (i.e. cleaning fees that guests are paying).   So at 15% of 75k, its not 15k in management fees, its 8,625 per year so there's about 6,400 in savings right there.  If you can get a loan at the 6.5%, you're saving another 5k a year off your estimates.  Now things are looking a little better.

    But I would be very interested in knowing whether the 100k a year is gross rent or gross revenue.  btw: 24k in cleaning fees seems quite a bit excessive even if it is. You calculated 8 turns a month? Thats a ton of different guest stays to average per month. Obviously you said you are very experienced so I'm sure thats based on that.  But boy does that seem like a lot of guest stays per month.   


    i am putting 25% down, 2 pt buy down to get 6.99% dscr.  I cannot qualify for traditional conventional for multiple reasons but the over 200 to 1 debt to income ratio is a primary reason.  

    i am less worried about first year than on going so $100k revenue ($70k for first year).

     The $100k is total revenue as airdna reports it so includes the cleaning fees.  I agree that the mgmt fee 15% should be exclusive of the cleaning fees so 15% of $30k better which $4500.  I wish airdna excluded the cleaning seeing it is a pass through but i do not set their policy.

    the local cohost stated that cleaning would be $250 to $300.   It includes servicing the spa and cleaning the 3150’ cabin.   I fear i may be a bit aggressive on my allocation (i fear i am more likely low than high, i like my underwriting to be conservative).  

    The electric bill is also high, it is a little higher allocation than the propane.  The spa is electric.  I used the electricity allocation from my co-host but it seem high to me (co host said $400 to $600 so i used $500). Water, trash, internet, and fire wood make up the rest of the utility allocation.  It would be quite costly converting away from propane and due to high electricity cost i suspect t not warranted.   The water heater is 80 gal propane.  

    I do agree $100k revenue on $500k cabin seems should have positive coc, but the size ($7k allocated maint/cap ex which is unscheduled maintenance - annual fire prep has own allocation), delivered propane, expensive utilities, & expensive cleaning take their toll. 

    Even though you are the only post that seems to advocating purchase, i lean toward purchase.  I have high revenue from my rentals and have diversified other investments that cover my lifestyle.  If the year 2 to end of loan coc is really between negative $12k to negative $15k, i can absorb it without impact.  Equity paydown and modest appreciation would result in a small profit; not enough to justify a non passive investment but i will own a killer cabin.  

    Thanks for your response

  • Bradley BuxtonBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · NV · Member since 2023 · 1k+ posts · 715 votes
    1y

    @Dan H.

    It sounds like you have your answer if you should buy it as an investment or as a vacation home. If you like the the area and can afford the house it would be like buying a luxury or sports car. It will bring you joy and not a return on an investment. I'm in Northern Nevada and there are vast areas where you can get away in the mountains with a lower wildfire risk. Many people have homes they never rent and only keep for personal vacation. 

    As for insurance I deal a lot with that here in Tahoe and western Reno. There are some insurers going back into CA because there is money to be made. There are tougher requirements to satisfy underwriters and there are actions to take to fortify your home that can lower insurance. Happy to share some resources for that. 

  • Sarah KensingerPro Member
    Real Estate Consultant · OH · Member since 2023 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    1y

    I can imagine if you want to purchase something, there's thousands of other areas to choose from where you wouldn't be losing so much money. It's a big country and if you look off the beaten path you can still make money with a STR. But areas with expensive real estate, that everyone knows is a great tourist area, is not the best option right now.

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