General Landlording & Rental Properties
Market News & Data
General Info
Real Estate Strategies
Landlording & Rental Properties
Real Estate Professionals
Financial, Tax, & Legal
Real Estate Classifieds
Reviews & Feedback
Updated over 4 years ago, 04/17/2020
Tenants using inhabitable rooms as bedrooms
There is a property I'm looking at that has (on paper) 4 bedrooms, 3 baths. There is a spacious 5th room in the finished attic that is not considered habitable because it's under the 7 ft. ceiling height. Looking up rental permit searches, I see past tenants using it as a 5th bedroom has been an issue twice on the previous owners' inspection reports. They've been warned that should it be an issue again, they will make the owners remove the door and frame to the area and create a cased opening. It bothers me that there is so much "wasted potential" in that finished attic space. I'll be house hacking the first year and can manage the property. Once I'm out, I can see future tenants using the room as a 5th bedroom despite lease conditions. Will this property cause me headaches later on? While fees would be paid by the tenants, I'm concerned that this is basis for a reduced term rental permit and impact my ability to renew permits. What would you do?
- Rental Property Investor
- Boston, Massachusetts (MA)
- 2,244
- Votes |
- 2,367
- Posts
I'm really surprised this would be on the radar as its SO commonly done. Yes you will have headaches. You can and should put in your lease that that space is not to be used as a bedroom, not to have bedroom furniture (a futon?) etc. but enforcing its another matter and you will be on the hook for the changes once they inspect. Very curious what was the trigger here. Not sure where you are, but if code enforcement is reasonable (and some are) you could go directly to the office and say "what should I do", talk about the lease language idea and try and get on the right side of them. And don't rent to people who need 5 bedrooms....
The ceiling height per the code is 7 feet for 30% of the space, not 7 feet for the entire space unless the city has amended the code. At the far end it looks like an exterior door. Where does that lead? You also need an egress window or door of sufficient size, a smoke detector and a carbon monoxide detector (if you have gas heat/appliances).
#2 General Landlording & Rental Properties Contributor
- 11,020
- Votes |
- 14,337
- Posts
#2 General Landlording & Rental Properties Contributor
As Jonathan said, specify in the lease that it cannot be used as a bedroom and the consequences of them doing so. Not sure why enforcement would keep checking on it. If you rent the place to less than 4 people, it shouldn't be a problem.
@Kenneth Garrett Surprisingly, everything is under the 7 ft.! It doesn't look like it, but that highest point is slightly under 7 ft. by a couple inches... :( Beyond this room's door are the other bedrooms (3) and bathrooms (2). All of which are normal dimensions for minimum bedroom space. It's no surprise why people do use it as a bedroom...!
@Jonathan R McLaughlin Granted they only inspect every 2-4 years, but they've been caught twice already... But you're right, I do plan on putting it in my lease and making everyone 18+ sign that lease. They've stated all furnishings, bedding, electronics and daily use items must be removed and relocated into one of the habitable areas. That makes it harder for the room to be anything other than a huge storage room... But yes, ideally the tenants will not need 5 bedrooms... :) Thanks!
@Kenneth Garrett Surprisingly, everything is under the 7 ft.! It doesn't look like it, but that highest point is slightly under 7 ft. by a couple inches... :( Beyond this room's door are the other bedrooms (3) and bathrooms (2). All of which are normal dimensions for minimum bedroom space. It's no surprise why people do use it as a bedroom...!Originally posted by @Sharon Ho:
Crazy idea...but have you tried to figure out how costly it would be to raise it a couple inches? Even if you only do it in enough area to be just legal.
- Real Estate Broker
- Cody, WY
- 40,402
- Votes |
- 27,462
- Posts
Don't advertise it as sleeping space. In fact, make it clear in the marketing AND the lease agreement that it is not sleeping space. After that, it's out of your hands. If renters want to sleep in the closet or on top of the kitchen counter, that's really none of your business.
Edit: you can also reduce the likelihood of this happening by implementing occupancy standards. If you are house-hacking with multiple roommates, I would limit occupancy to one person per bedroom. This space wouldn't count as a bedroom so you wouldn't rent it out to anyone.
It sounds like you live in a heavily regulated state like California where the government constantly tells you how to live. IF that's the case, you may need to ignore my advice.
- Nathan Gesner
@Andrew B. Not a crazy idea! I actually tried to research that last night but don't know if I quite found the answer I needed...! :D The website was saying in $10-35k, but perhaps that was for an entire floor's ceiling? But according to new zoning code, I don't believe I'll be able to add that bedroom space due to the fixed 30%(?) percentage of bedrooms to habitable space in the dwelling.
@Nathan Gesner Thanks! If I go through with the buy, I'll be sure to do just that! I live in Iowa City, but I'm new so I'm not exactly sure what the feel is here. Sucks because of the potential. It's a large space, albeit a little short.
People are attracted to second living rooms too. Its not the end of the world if you cant officially market it as a 5th bedroom. Now if this were the 3rd bedroom in question where you had to market it as a 2 bedroom with extra living space, it would be a different story.
@Rich Bultema Thanks! I've thought about converting it to an office, playroom, or third living room but they've stated all furnishings, bedding, electronics and daily use items must be removed and relocated into one of the habitable areas. :(
Originally posted by @Sharon Ho:
@Rich Bultema Thanks! I've thought about converting it to an office, playroom, or third living room but they've stated all furnishings, bedding, electronics and daily use items must be removed and relocated into one of the habitable areas. :(
Hmmm, really? so they aren't just saying it cant be a bedroom but rather it cant be a habitable space at all? just a nice carpeted attic storage? It just looks like the typical upstairs of a cape cod.
What is the actual height of the flat part of the ceiling?
@Rich Bultema YUP, just a nice carpeted attic storage that is huge. And while the numbers work as a 4 bedroom, that space is a dilemma especially since I know others could potentially use as a 5th bedroom. The house already had tons of storage without this room adding to it... I'm not sure what the actual height of the flat part is since I did a virtual tour. My agent is 5' 8'' and touched it with bent arms... Waiting for her follow-up!
@Sharon Ho raising the ceiling two inches is not difficult. The actual roof is a triangle, so there is space above. You will just remove the existing ceiling and need to have it framed and sheet rocked. You will need to make sure the new ceiling is 30% of the room. If not, the simple solution is move one of walls on the slanted sides. Move it just enough to meet the 30% over 7 feet requirement. My guess is you are talking around five thousand dollars to do the work.
The easiest solution is making it clear to future tenants that they cannot use the space as a bedroom. As you stated, they likely will anyways. Then it just becomes a situation of inspections. If you get notice prior to inspections, you could pre-inspect to make sure there is not a bed and dressers in the room. Or you can do your own pro-active inspections once every few months. If they know they cannot use the space as a bedroom and know you will be inspecting regularly for that, it may discourage people from doing it.
@Sharon Ho judging from the picture it might be 6' 11" assuming those are full height doors. I know the other post joked about letting air out of the carpet....
But it might be crazy enough to work. Haha. Take an accurate tape measure and see if it's close enough for thin flooring to solve the issue.
@Sharon Ho looks like a sweet bedroom to me. Protect yourself with the way you market it AKA 4 bedrooms, not 5. From there if you move a family in and junior wants to live in the attic room, “pleeeeease mommy!”, that’s where the kid will probably live.
May be worth having something in your lease that the tenants sign that the attic is not considered a bedroom and any and all liability will be assumed by the occupant if they choose to have a person sleep in that bedroom.
At that point, you’ve covered your bases and hopefully have yourself a layer of protection in your lease.
People are going to do what they want to do in the home. Unless you are planning on policing the property weekly/monthly and find tenants that are going to be okay with that, it is not your responsibility beyond the point of marketing it as a 4 bedroom and having the tenants acknowledge as such contractually.
If you don’t already have an umbrella, may be worth getting one if you believe you could be he’s responsible if something happened and someone got hurt in the attic area. Cheap and worth the sleepful nights that it brings.
Peel that carpet AND pad back and see exactly what you have to the 1/32” in a few spots. If you’re 2” short now you’ll still be short. If you’re 1/2” short at the moment I bet there’s a reasonable cost solution here such as a thin epoxy or similar over the existing subfloor. Or possibly even replace some subfloor with thinner ply admits likely osb currently. Pay attention to bld codes etc for your area obviously.
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Sharon Ho raising the ceiling two inches is not difficult. The actual roof is a triangle, so there is space above. You will just remove the existing ceiling and need to have it framed and sheet rocked. You will need to make sure the new ceiling is 30% of the room. If not, the simple solution is move one of walls on the slanted sides. Move it just enough to meet the 30% over 7 feet requirement. My guess is you are talking around five thousand dollars to do the work.
Conceptually, raising the ceiling is easy, but as a practical matter, I’m not so sure. If the Sheetrock is fastened directly to the trusses, then you’re going to have to mess with the trusses in order to get a flat ceiling that is high enough, which to me says architect/building engineer and a lot of money.
I suppose another option would be to put the ceiling on top of the trusses’ bottom chords so you end up with an exposed beam look, but I don’t know if this is allowed or practical.
Is there some sort of crawl space above that can be viewed to get a better idea of the structure between the ceiling and the roof? That would help inform your decision.
Originally posted by @Carl Fredrickson:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Sharon Ho raising the ceiling two inches is not difficult. The actual roof is a triangle, so there is space above. You will just remove the existing ceiling and need to have it framed and sheet rocked. You will need to make sure the new ceiling is 30% of the room. If not, the simple solution is move one of walls on the slanted sides. Move it just enough to meet the 30% over 7 feet requirement. My guess is you are talking around five thousand dollars to do the work.
Conceptually, raising the ceiling is easy, but as a practical matter, I’m not so sure. If the Sheetrock is fastened directly to the trusses, then you’re going to have to mess with the trusses in order to get a flat ceiling that is high enough, which to me says architect/building engineer and a lot of money.
I suppose another option would be to put the ceiling on top of the trusses’ bottom chords so you end up with an exposed beam look, but I don’t know if this is allowed or practical.
Is there some sort of crawl space above that can be viewed to get a better idea of the structure between the ceiling and the roof? That would help inform your decision.
Good point on the trusses. I made the assumption that was not an issue since the other bedrooms on the same level have taller ceilings. I agree someone needs to up and look at it.
Another question is how do you envision renting it out?... to a single family or to multiple tenants (like college students sharing a house). If the latter, maybe consider subdividing the space with walls so each tenant can have their own lockable storage area.
@Carl Fredrickson That's a neat idea!!
I agree with @Carl Fredrickson. Maybe taking the carpet out, and putting up shelving and other obvious storage will make it unappealing for any other activities. This could be an option until you get a solid answer about whether you can add the extra height to the ceiling.
Frustrating, no doubt. I would speak with the zoning/real estate compliance (title varies by city) to see if you're able to file for an exception. If they say no, ask what you can do to cover yourself and they might be helpful and give you some ideas.
@Sharon Ho
The previous owners finished the room as if it was a bedroom or at least as close as they could Based on the picture. Did they build a closet in that space?