Pain tenants, and mold, please help

[Justin R.]

Looking for advice....Nightmare situation and tenants.

Hello All, I rehabbed a beautiful house in Southern Ca and recently rented it out Aug 1st. In the first month of the tenants residing my property manager has received 12 emails, each with numerous complaints and requests. Each of these request have been ridiculous and denied. An example of a few...."Please have chandler moved 3 inches so it fits over the center of our personal dining room set." "One fence post has faded to a different shade than others and we would like it repaired." "Have mature fruit trees removed because they could potentially drop fruit and attract rats." Keep in mind, this is a beautiful house and just remodeled far beyond a typical rental quality home.

Moving on...The day they moved in, and the same day there is a leak with the washing machine drain line. The house has been there for 40 years and the drain line happens to have its first leak the day they move in. The washing machine is in the garage, backing the drywall of the kitchen area. The leak floods the kitchen. Immediately when my property manager notifies me, I have my contractor head over there. He instantly pulls up the new flooring, and removes cabinets in the area, and removes the drywall around the leak. Within 5 hour after the leak, this is being done, and there are fans blowing the area to dry it out. I have it fully repaired within 72 hours.

Last week the tenants contact my property manager and tell them they want a mold report. Going on the side of playing safe (and living in CA) we immediately order one. The mold inspector tells us that its difficult in rentals because there is usually ALWAYS some small amount of mold coming back in the report, which it hard for tenants to understand.

The report came back and stated there are small amounts of potentially toxic starchybotrys. How should I proceed? should I share the report?

Thanks in advance!

[Justin R.]

@Joe Splitrock Thanks for your advice. I was thinking that since we are being upfront, and doing the right thing, it would be better to have this documentation (email) trail. I agree that perhaps we should have an attorney read it prior to sending.

[Joe Splitrock]

Originally posted by @Justin R.:

@Joe Splitrock Thanks for your advice. I was thinking that since we are being upfront, and doing the right thing, it would be better to have this documentation (email) trail. I agree that perhaps we should have an attorney read it prior to sending.

Your mistake is believing that "doing the right thing" will reduce your liability. It is generally best to say less, but I agree you need to have a documented response.

If you are going to tell them there is a mold problem, you might as well put biohazard tape over the door and give your credit card to a local hotel. They should not spend another minute in there after you tell them there is a health concern.

Either tell them there is mold and make them leave, or get it tested by a company that will state there is "common and acceptable limits of mold present". 

[Ned J.]

So there is ZERO visible mold....and the "test" show low levels.....in a 40 year old home? And it came from a company that gets paid to fix the problem? BIG HUGE GIANT RED FLAGS......

Get  second opinion from another source that doesn't offer the repair part of the scenario....maybe even 2...... the $$ will be worth it. Don't tell them the previous results, just that you are looking for a second and third opinion.

I agree with @Joe Splitrock.... the less you say, the better....keep it brief, to the point and have an attorney review it

Remediation....so what exactly are they going to fix? no visible mold..... you dealt with the issue very quickly, so the source of the "positive test" may not even be that area....smells of BS to me.....

[Benjamin Haberman]

@Scott Weaner i am glad I’m not the only one that thinks this. What a racket. We have home inspectors (who have no business mentioning the word mold), throwing around the word mold like it’s no big deal. People immediately throw their Arms up when they hear mold but i would bet a majority of these people have no idea what the problems are with mold. Mold is a huge money maker And has been branded as such.

[Justin R.]

@Benjamin Haberman Yes, I agree mold is overrated, expensive, and a huge money maker for the industry. What's an even bigger money maker in CA? liability from mold health accusations

[Justin R.]

This is continuing to escalate.... After consulting with two attorneys, they both advised not sharing the report with the tenants. My property manger wrote the tenants and said they have to be out by Tuesday, or sign a hold harmless agreement. Tuesday the mold remediation company will start the remediation process. The tenants requested a copy of the mold inspection, which my property manger denied from legal advice. 2 attorneys have said we should not give a report, but simply state there are low levels indicated on the report, and it will be taken care of as soon as possible. Now the tenants insurance company has gotten involved, and states they have never had a landlord withhold information from a Tennant. They also will not cover any of the tenants expenses because I am not sharing the report, and therefore the renters insurance has no reason to believe the house is inhabitable. How do I keep myself legally safe, do the right thing, and make this deescalate?

[Shawn Coverdell]

Boot and Reboot Bro. Get em gone. Pull up with a uhual and a

[Justin R.]

@Shawn Coverdell I wish bud. This is CA, tenants call the shots unfortunately

[Jim C.]

WOW!!

[Lynnette E.]

What you should have done, and now should immediately do is get another company to do the mold test and either confirm or allow you to dispute the original test.

NEVER remediate on one test without visible mold!!!

If they are out and their stuff is out and the test shows no or less toxic mold then you may be able to argue it may have been on their furniture or mold they encountered outside the home and brought it into the home as they are gone and so is the mold.  The mold was attached to them/their stuff, not your house.  Mold is everywhere!

IF there is mold and you take their stuff out the mold level will likely drop.  This extra testing may help you out legally, especially if you get their stuff into storage and retest the house.

And you should NOT tell them when you will be doing a new test if they have access to the house as they can tamper with the results, and do not let them have access to the house during the test.

I would not have told them you were remediating, you just gave them legal bait!  I would have said you were doing more testing and studying the situation.  You want them out as a precaution since there MIGHT be a problem and as a precaution you want them out, or your liability removed if they stay.  Maybe your PM can say they misspoke or did not say it a clearly as they needed to and that there may not be a problem, you are doing more testing, but they should leave just to be extra careful, etc.

Offer to pay a few hundred dollars for a medium priced motel for a few days, a months storage for their stuff just to get them out, but say you are helping with the costs  until you retest and confirm over the next few months.  Then you may share the information with their insurance...MAY. And then share information like lower than, higher than not real data.

Also, spend the extra money and have independent tests of EACH room to focus where the mold may have come from.  e.g. garage/kitchen from the flooded area  or bedroom or bathroom, entry hall, etc. from them not ventilating during showers, or they brought the mold into the home on their clothes or bodies.  It helps if you can show the bedroom area is low, not present, etc.

[Justin R.]

@Lynnette E. You brought up some great points. I have already set up the remediation company to start Tuesday, but perhaps I can get another "inspection only" company in prior to that. You seem experienced in this situation, have you gone through something similar in the past?

What I have done so far is

1. Gave tenants option to break lease and leave

2. Informed tenants of remediation Tuesday, and suggested vacating by Monday at the latest. If they choose not to leave, my PM is asking them to sign a hold harmless. 

They are really frustrated that I didn't share the mold report, but have been continuously advised not to share it.

[Steve B.]

@Justin R. As a landlord I promise you that if you get involved with mold, asbestos, or lead paint “remediation” companies you will never make money. You need to insure you have reasonable tenants going forward that will behave in like with the class of rental they are occupying.

[Lynnette E.]

Justin

I am retired from the federal government and worked at a few different agencies. I have worked with many toxic substances during my career, including mold and other biological substances.  I was a chemist and an environmental scientist during my career.  I worked with superfund sites, HAZMAT, sewage (lots of mold there!), remediation of biological and chemical contamination, chemical warfare agents, lots of different things during my career.

I would recommend that you cancel the remediation on Tuesday and get additional information.  The remediation may not be needed and you are wasting money on something that was transitional.  You really should develop the data before you plan on a remediation.  Plus the remediation will taint your house's value forever.  Why do it if it is not needed?

Mold comes and goes and they may have tracked it into the house immediately prior to your test.  They may have purposely brought it into your house just to set you up.  Have you checked if your renters have pulled something like this before?

And sometimes pollutant loads in a house increase just because the air filter needs to be changed and someone left it in place for months.  You could have a very easy to fix problem--get them out and change filters, and clean vs. remediation that will taint your house's value forever.  You will need to declare mold remediation when you sell, if you can sell your house ... someday...you are in CA.  (And I was born and raised there, lived there as an adult for many years too, just retired to TN.  

I am very familiar with how CA laws and juries favor tenants.  My parents had rentals since I was about 6 years old so I helped them a lot over the years and did the final notices to move out when they passed and I had to sell their assets to distribute.

You need to get better data to protect your assets.  They will have imaginary illnesses for the rest of their lives and you will be paying with the data you have.  More data is your protection.

[Lynnette E.]

Also, do not be surprised if your renters do not have their own air quality/mold data.  My guess is they were pulling samples all weekend.

[Derrick E.]

This is why I would NEVER own property in the liberal infested state of California. 

I would definitely cancel the remediation until you get more tests done. 

[Justin R.]

@Lynnette E. Thanks for your help and advice. If I wasn't worried before, you really got me worried now! LOL. You did make some great points, and I am changing my plan a bit. I never even thought about the disclosure element, and that  definitely has value. I am getting another third party in to test, without the tenants there to persuade the sampling. I am still having the mold remediation company (small local private firm) come out just to do some "exploratory" testing to help identify an area of moisture (if any) because the previous air sampling was only a 2 sample (one interior, one exterior.)

[Justin R.]

The tenants are asking what we are willing to do to cover their relocation costs. The state of CA states that we must prorate their rent on the time they are displaced. Tenants asking if we will pay the costs of hotel and a food stipend. What is customary?  Should I offer to pay the cost of hotel for until the situation is remedied? What if they refuse to move back in because they still don't feel its safe? 

This could add up quick as the prorated rent per day is over 100 dollars, and the cost of a hotel in my town is over 200. If I cover both, the tenants will be "living for free" and be less inclined to move back to the house right? Property manager wants an answer from me quick, so we can get them out of the house for further testing.

Thanks for your help!

[Lynnette E.]

I'd say they should make it on the $100 a day from the prorated rent and you will pay for the rental of a U-Haul and maybe 4 hours for a two man crew.  They can Motel 6 it so that will encourage them to find a new place.

No food cost--they can microwave in hotel or rent one with a kitchen.  Do not make it nice--you want them to move to a new house not a paid vacation.  That is my two cents.

It would be different if you wanted them to return:)

[Ned J.]

Still waiting for details on what the "remediation company" is actually going to do

I would do everything possible to NOT let these people move back in..... this relationship is tainted for the rest of its existence...... more issues will come..... EVERY time one of them has some vague health issue, they will blame you.... EVERY time they want some other concession, this mold issue will come up...... "yes I want you to repaint and move that light....remember that mold issue we dealt with?....you owe us"...."yeah the rent was late....but remember that mold issue we dealt with?.....you owe us.".......this relationship needs to be cut off and start fresh no matter what

Hate doing it but this might be the best use for cash for keys.....give them a set amount to leave...they can do whatever they want with it....hotel....new place....storage.....food....whatever....but that all the $$ they get and they leave for good....

[Bob H.]

I don't know what your lease says, but mine says that after the tenants report a problem, the landlord will take a reasonable time to investigate it and arrange for the repair. It also says that, after a reasonable time, the landlord may elect not to make the repair and then terminate the lease without liability to tenants. You need something like this.

[Justin R.]

Last week I found a very reputable private mold inspection company (yea, thats hard to believe.) I explained the situation to the inspector and he was very honest, and said that even if he has to start removing drywall, he will ensure it is considered an "inspection, not remediation" until he re-engages with me. The tenants did not want the inspector in there without them, so they followed him around giving him their input, which I forewarned him about. After spending two hours at the house visually inspecting, and using his moisture meter, he found nothing. YES, a mold remediation company suggested I do nothing more.

Now that I have a "split", I decided to get one more opinion before I lay this to rest. I decided to hire another mold air sampler to come get a second test to verify the results of the first. I asked him to take additional readings, so if this comes back with nothing, it will supersede the prior test as it could be considered "more accurate." Luckily, this test came back with a zero reading for the "potentially toxic" mold. 

My PM has wrote the tenants a follow up letter basically saying that we are done with the mold inspections, and we are still going to let them out of the lease if they desire.

I would not be surprised if the tenants unjustifiably complain of "respiratory issues" in the future, but at least I have my records of due diligence. 

@Bob H.I will ask my management company about this verbiage. I am guessing they won't use this verbiage just because in CA we don't have the landlord provisions that you have in Texas, unfortunately. 

@Ned J. We have been trying to get them to move out. They say they "love the house, and area" which is hard to believe. 

Thanks again to all for your help!

[Joe Splitrock]

@Justin R. I am so glad you decided to get the second and third opinions. You may consider sharing with the tenant that the initial mold company tried to scam you for profit from remediation. 

My concern would be, how do you prevent the tenant from complaining of mold six months from now and demanding more tests? My initial thought was to send the tenant a bill for all three tests. It was their false complaint that lead to the testing so let them pay the bill. 

Maybe instead of billing them, you give them the option to sign an agreement stating in the future if they report mold, instead of testing, you will release them immediately from their lease. Basically make it clear, you will not test again and they must just leave. I would just explain that false reporting is too expensive to you as a landlord and you can't go through this again. 

Also this might be obvious, but do not renew their lease when it is up.

[Justin R.]

Thanks @Joe Splitrock. I definitely won't be renewing their lease. Unfortunately they still have almost 2 years left. On my nice homes with larger mortgages I always ask for a 2 year commitment. This is the first time that has bit me in the butt.

I don't think the first mold company was trying to scam me, as they are an air sampling company only. I am guessing that the super low level was from furniture, products left under the sink, or a bad air sample.

I would love to implement your strategy for releasing them from their lease, unfortunately in CA that is not an option. I talked to me attorney about possibly being able to break their lease because of an "unsafe condition" and he said NO WAY. There are many times when a house is actually "red flagged" by a local jurisdiction for safety and still the landlord does not reserve the write to terminate the lease without tenants approval.

[Steve Vaughan]

You certainly have yourself some ultra nitpickers it sounds like.  They can be just as bad as a non-paying turd and are to be avoided at all costs.

I was going to ask what red flags you saw when meeting with them that would've warned you to pass when they applied.  Then I realized you have no control over that because you have a PM.  Is this property out of area for you or something?  No way I'd give up selecting my own tenants if I could help it. Some say not having to select your own tenant is a benefit of hiring a PM.  Sure, until you get one of these.

To avoid nitpickers and the endless pain they provide during their stay, I always show my rentals before finished.  The painting isn't complete. Maybe some flooring. Some cleaning. Tools and materials in closets. Nitpickers either wont apply at all or will ask endless little questions while going through, flinching and sour faced. I know then whether they are flexible and tolerant or not.

I also ask specific questions of their landlord references.  Harder to do with PMs, but asking regular LLs how many times they were contacted by the applicant will tell you. Silence/hesitation is 'way too many'. Gotta read between the lines.

Either take over tenant selection or direct your PM to ask how many times the previous and current LL was/is contacted by your applicant and did they feel it was reasonable or not when screening.  Hopefully these tenants don't intend to withhold rent now that they've set the stage for anti-retailiation.  

This too will pass and you'll get through it.  Any of us that have been doing this a while have been there. Learn from it and adjust your screening process to help avoid in the future!

[Nik Moushon]

I would suggest taking a re-look at your lease agreement. Try and find some ways to give yourself an out. 

One way that is common where I'm at is to do a month to month lease but have penalties/fee built in if you leave before 6 month and before a year. Then after the years is a strictly month to month. Effectively making it a 1 year lease but also letting the owner get the advantage of a mtm lease. You could of course change the penalty dates to suite your desired 2 year contracts. Just an idea. Sorry for your troubles.