Renting to non citizens

[William George spear]

We are 2 years into rentals and are considering renting to a spanish couple that have been here over 20 years, have fin numbers and are gainfully employed. The husband has applied for a green card. the wife has not. What should I be considering other than the possibility of deportation? The current political climate in washington is another consideration. Would there be any legal rammifications to us  as the landlord. 

[Henri Meli]

@Bjorn Ahlblad . I was an F1 Student and I had a SSN. The real problem with this thread is that Landlords (which is what we are) want to replace the Immigration and Naturalization Service and determine someone's immigration status.  And what training do landlords have to determine the immigration status of a person? The Immigration status of a person can be very complicated. There are lots of categories, lots of situations, ... etc. The national conversation has bastardized the concept. And words are thrown around (mostly for effect), that are usually not well understood. Few Landlords are not trained to deal with it. We should leave it alone. 

Focus on Income, Background Checks, Credit Score, W2. If someone can demonstrate convincingly, they are in. 

[Bjorn Ahlblad]

Originally posted by @Henri Meli:

@Bjorn Ahlblad . I was an F1 Student and I had a SSN. The real problem with this thread is that Landlords (which is what we are) want to replace the Immigration and Naturalization Service and determine someone's immigration status.  And what training do landlords have to determine the immigration status of a person? The Immigration status of a person can be very complicated. There are lots of categories, lots of situations, ... etc. The national conversation has bastardized the concept. And words are thrown around (mostly for effect), that are usually not well understood. Few Landlords are not trained to deal with it. We should leave it alone. 

Focus on Income, Background Checks, Credit Score, W2. If someone can demonstrate convincingly, they are in. 

 That is really the whole point. To be able to check someone out fully to see if they qualify as a prospective tenant; and if they cannot be checked out then they do not qualify IMO;  on to the next one who does qualify.

[Ihe O.]

Originally posted by @Patrick Blood:

Originally posted by @Ihe O.:

Originally posted by @Patrick Blood:

@Ihe O

That’s absolutely false.

If an individual is unsearchable in the US databases - someone who does not have a social security number for example - as a rule it’s better to offer the additional deposit.

That’s the opposite of discrimination.

Search what database. You're just a landlord, you're not the FBI.

 I am the owner of a large property management company, paid by my clients to manage and protect their assets. 

Our tenant application process is where the first line of protection begins. 

 If that's your job then you need a better grasp of what discrimination is.

[Account Closed]

@Kyle J.  The article is outdated.  It does not take into consideration the latest Disparate Impact decision that came out about 6 months after the article was written.

[Patrick Blood]

Originally posted by @Ihe O.:

Originally posted by @Patrick Blood:

Originally posted by @Ihe O.:

Originally posted by @Patrick Blood:

@Ihe O

That’s absolutely false.

If an individual is unsearchable in the US databases - someone who does not have a social security number for example - as a rule it’s better to offer the additional deposit.

That’s the opposite of discrimination.

Search what database. You're just a landlord, you're not the FBI.

 I am the owner of a large property management company, paid by my clients to manage and protect their assets. 

Our tenant application process is where the first line of protection begins. 

 If that's your job then you need a better grasp of what discrimination is.

 Lol ok good man 😂👍🏻

[Cara Lonsdale]

Originally posted by @Ihe O.:

Originally posted by @Bill F.:

@Ihe O. Great link. 

I think the entire text of the excerpt you provided will help answer some of @William George spear's questions. 

As long as the owner asks for SSNs from all applicants (and why wouldn't they, building systems and process is the way to grow and streamline your business), denying someone tenancy based on the fact that they do not have a SSN is not discrimination.

Except that Landlords have no legal right to demand SSN's.

Section 7 of the Privacy Act (found at 5 U.S.C. § 552a note (Disclosure of Social Security Number)) provides that:

“It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or privilege provided by law because of such individual’s refusal to disclose his social security account number.” Sec. 7(a)(1).

https://www.justice.gov/opcl/social-security-numbe...

So you demand my SSN - I tell you no  and I have documentary proof of my ability to pay (sources of  income, savings), you deny me and I go straight to Fair Housing.

The trouble with the argument that you ask it of everybody is that  a discriminatory policy can be prosecuted by choosing to ask everybody questions that you know immigrants will have difficulty satisfying. 

 The quote you gave, and the link you gave refer to Government agencies, not indivudals or landlords, so that is debunked.

Additionally, you should have quit while you were ahead with the first link you gave, because it clearly stated there that landlords CAN ask for ID documents for the goal of pulling credit.

This is STRAIGHT from YOUR link:

"Landlords are allowed to request documentation and conduct inquiries to determine whether a potential renter meets the criteria for rental, so long as this same procedure is applied to all potential renters. Landlords can ask for identity documents and institute credit checks to ensure ability to pay rent. However, a person’s ability to pay rent or fitness as a tenant is not necessarily connected to his or her immigration status."

So, you left out the whole quote when you listed the first link.  And if a landlord always asks for SS#s in order to pull credit (as all should), then the failure for someone NOT to be able to produce a valid ID or SS# for the purpose of pulling credit is grounds for denial.  And that is not discriminatory, as stated in your own link.

[Bill F.]

Originally posted by @Ihe O.:

Originally posted by @Bill F.:

@Ihe O. Except for the fact that private landords are not "Federal, State or local government agency" thus Section 7 doesn't apply. Further reading of your link shows that Section 7 doesn't even apply to public housing:

"Claugus v. Roosevelt Island Hous. Mgmt. Corp., No. 96CIV8155, 1999 WL 258275, at *4 (S.D.N.Y. Apr. 29, 1999) (considering housing management corporation to be state actor for Privacy Act purposes but finding that Privacy Act does not apply to income verification process for public housing program because of exception created by 42 U.S.C. § 405(c)(2)(C)(i))."

What your source documents for ability to pay cannot verify is a background check for time since last eviction, conviction ect.

On to the topic of Background checks and Disparate Impact.

Landlords don't have any more right to an SSN than anybody else least of all the government agencies. 

The legitimate interest a landlord can have is in your ability to pay rent. If an applicant can satisfactorily show an ability to pay rent without showing you his SSN then the landlords continued interest in the SSN is not legitimate.

Background checks that are not financially oriented do not require SSN. They have given you their name and probably their DOB. That's all you need.

As to your link - my advice is not to put yourself in a position where you need to have an attorney to argue that in the first place.

I agree that no private individual has the ability to compel someone to divulge their private data(including SSN); however, if someone chooses not to so then they may place themselves in a disadvantageous position relative to other applicants. 

 The ability to pay goes far beyond the simple act of having enough cash flow from employment to pay the rent. The first paragraph of Question 6 in the link you first posted lays out what landlords are allowed to do. For instance wouldn't you want to know if an applicant for a $1000/month unit, who made $3500/month, had $1750/month in child support payments?  

Just as you say landlords do not have a "right" to an applicant's SSN, the applicant's "rights" are also not without limit. One of those "rights" is not to make the landlord expend more time and resources to determine if the applicant meets the stated criteria than they would for other applicants. 

[Thomas S.]

@Ihe O.

You are the one that needs to learn the definition of discrimination. Simply because you do not agree with something does not make it discrimination. You have proven in the past that you are a proponent of the "moral outrage and righteous indignation" camp. You have never had any conclusive evidence to support your position.

To clarify: A landlord is legally within their rights to ask for a applicants SSN.

A applicant is legally within their rights to refuse to provide their SSN.

A landlord is legally within their rights to reject a applicant that does not provide their SSN.

This is not discrimination nore is it a violation of fair housing.  A SSN is not a protect class.

[Sam Shueh]

I think more than half of the population in Florida is Latino. Is the wife on a visitor visa for 20 years subject to explusion?

[Aaron Hunt]

I like this troll triggering post.

*grabs popcorn*

Don’t do it! They took our jerbs, and now they taking our digs!

[Ernesto Hernandez]

I thank God for the landlords I've had. I'd hate to rent from a lot of the folks responding in this post. 

There's a human element to being in the business of putting a roof over someone's head and we can't let that fall to the wayside. 

[Greg H.]

Originally posted by @Ernesto Hernandez:

I thank God for the landlords I've had. I'd hate to rent from a lot of the folks responding in this post. 

There's a human element to being in the business of putting a roof over someone's head and we can't let that fall to the wayside. 

 I couldn't agree with you more.  On a personal level, I treat my banker with the same respect as the cashier at 7-11(As it should be).  Some of my best tenants ever have been those who are undocumented.  However, I am as guilty as the next guy in falling for "the story" of the prospective tenant just needing a chance.  You would think giving someone a chance would be rewarded right ?  My best guess in my 28+ years of giving those a chance and "putting a roof over there head" has been successful less than 25% of the time

[Tom Gimer]

This can be a touchy subject so I make sure all my tenants keep a copy of the latest Washington Diplomat handy.

[David Fernandez]

There are many ways to live legally in the US without being a US citizen or a Green Card holder. I am originally from Spain and I lived in the US always legally for many years now. First with an F1 visa when I was a college student. Later I had some temporary work visas, then an E-2 visa, then a green card, and finally last year I became a US citizen. 

I rented from 5 different places in three different states and no landlord ever asked me about my origin. I probably didn’t have a SSN for the first two rentals (not sure). I always had to fill out a rental application which was the same to every tenant and I had to prove to them I was able to pay rent, before they processed my application. 

I didn’t feel they treated me differently than any other applicant. If they were not able to run my credit score and/or background check when I did not have history here, they asked me for additional info (bank statements, additional references, etc.), which I saw as normal to be able to do their due diligence about me. It was a slight deviation from their process and not a big deal for them or me. 

Ask the same questions and do your due diligence as you will do with any other tenant and, if they qualify, you should accept them. 

[Jacob Villalobos]

Illegals from Mexico are some of best tenants I find.  I understand the language and culture so that helps.  They also don't want any problems with the law. They always pay on time and if there is a issue they are out without me having to ask twice.     

[Carol Birnberg]

Just to let you know, if a person has applied for a green card that means they have proper documentation. Or else the risk is high to get deported. Living here 20 years will show enough proof if they are good tenants or not.

[Mark Fries]

questions like these are drive me nuts....who cares.... I would rent to aliens from outer space if they paid on time and took care of the home...

[Vince Mayer]

This thread is interesting. There is a difference between immigrant and illegal immigrant. Is there a law against renting to an illegal versus legal immigrant? What does E-verify cover and would it apply to this situation?

Putting politics aside, this is a business and I would think a landlord would just like to keep his properties full and not fight the social justice wars.

[Chinmay J.]

Originally posted by @William George spear:

We are 2 years into rentals and are considering renting to a spanish couple that have been here over 20 years, have fin numbers and are gainfully employed. The husband has applied for a green card. the wife has not. What should I be considering other than the possibility of deportation? The current political climate in washington is another consideration. Would there be any legal rammifications to us  as the landlord. 

 You need to do your job as a prospective landlord.. No you are not an ICE agent.  Keep politics out of landlording. 

[Matt Honeyford]

It's not our job to  determine if someone is in this country illegally. It's our job to ensure that our properties remain rented and provide safe housing. 

The answer to this question is simple: Have process in place for screening prospective tenants and follow it every time. I run background checks, employment verification and credit checks. Plus I check with previous landlords. If ever in a situation where a prospective tenant doesn't pass one of those 'gates' I move on to the next applicant. 

I like to keep things simple and follow process. Every time. 

[Sam Josh]

Non citizens does not imply illegals. They may be on a work visa. So check their employment status and their place of employment. They could ski be students etc.

[Ola Dantis]

@William George spear I'm certain there was a whole discussion about this a few months back. 

Frankly, I don't think this should be a landlord's business. 

When has citizen status ever correlated to rent payments? Never. 

[Account Closed]

@Ola Dantis    As has been said over and over.  It seems non citizens pay better than citizens.

[Account Closed]

@Vince Mayer   It is a crime to use E-Verify for anything other than employment.

[Ola Dantis]

 I just don't think that should even be a parameter to judge a human being. 

So, you were born in this part of the world, ok...hmmm... So...This is who, what, you are?!!! 

Like, that philosophy is baffling to me!!!!! 🙄🙄🙄