Bad tenants - we need a database :-(

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Bad tenants - we need a database :-(

Daria B.
Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes

I know this is probably border line - privacy issue - if not fully frowned upon. :-|

The title of my post - these tenants had no respect for the property - why doesn't there exist (again, venting) something that landlords can document what the tenant did to the property and share it? It would not be anything other than what we do now with our properties but we would be able to share that with other landlords. This would help others see just how bad/good tenants are.

Even doing the back ground check, debt 2 income, credit check all the other verifications - just doesn't always seem full proof. I've read of the professional tenant and how they manipulate the system.

Mostly venting here and telling others whether you self-manage or have a PM - get all and do all documentation pre and post tenant move.

Going through a disputed move out - pictures were taken (pre-move in and post move out) and the written documentation clearly has everything checked off as fair or good condition. 

I was mortified at the condition.

The PM did all the right things and the tenant is disputing all the SD as though there was no damage.

They broke things and didn't say a word - they glued a kitchen draw back on - glue dripping down the face of the draw and it was on crooked. :-/

They changed the front door lock, I assume they broke it since there were so many other things that were broken.

They never changed the air filter - clumps of dirt and dust on all the vents and the return register.

 Holes in the wallls and dirt all over the walls from kids hands and who knows what.

They almost burned down the house from the cooking being done with grease. Had to replace one stove and pretty much the replacement was also ruined. The cabinets took a few days to get the grease and grim off. Scratches weren't superficial but to the point of having to paint several cabinets. :-/ Crayon? Really?

Manipulative is what comes to mind knowing the condition and still they feel they are not culpable.

Ok - venting done and I'll be riding this to some sort of conclusion.

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Tyler De Young
Developer · Bozeman, MT · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 19 votes
9y

@Daria B. its almost funny once you get over the inconvenience and loss of time/money; but I adopt the, "if you don't laugh, you'll cry" principle.  

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2016 · 139 posts · 136 votes
    9y

    For some reason, it's ok to destroy, and steal housing in America. 

    4Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    thats landlording.

    but seriously banks already do this... there is a data base for those that bounce too many checks their SS is flagged and they can no longer open checking accounts anywhere in the US..   this is one red flag when you get a tenant who says they have no checking account... 99% chance they abused it bounced check after check and can no longer get one. 

    I wonder how if you filter with no checking account no rent to you.. how that would go.. or are you just one of the victims on their way to losing their checking account privileges.

    Now this wont always work.. but if you buy rentals at the top of the market IE top 20% of rents in a given area your going to get better tenants.. were I see things like your describing is usually low end renters.. you know the stuff that looks great on paper but ends up being negative cash flow because of tenant wear and tear and the issues you describe.

    however at the end of the day landlording your taking on some risk.. I had 11 new construction homes in Mississippi rents at 1,200 to 1600 top 20% of the market.. and i still have had some issues.. not drastic and defiantly better than 700 renters.. and one renter destroyed one home 45k in damage..  But by and larger better results.. now they don't cash flow as well % return wise on paper but I suspect over the long haul I did better than many who bought stuff that looked great up front and they end up with stories like yours.

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  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    thats landlording.

    but seriously banks already do this... there is a data base for those that bounce too many checks their SS is flagged and they can no longer open checking accounts anywhere in the US..   this is one red flag when you get a tenant who says they have no checking account... 99% chance they abused it bounced check after check and can no longer get one. 

    I wonder how if you filter with no checking account no rent to you.. how that would go.. or are you just one of the victims on their way to losing their checking account privileges.

    Now this wont always work.. but if you buy rentals at the top of the market IE top 20% of rents in a given area your going to get better tenants.. were I see things like your describing is usually low end renters.. you know the stuff that looks great on paper but ends up being negative cash flow because of tenant wear and tear and the issues you describe.

    however at the end of the day landlording your taking on some risk.. I had 11 new construction homes in Mississippi rents at 1,200 to 1600 top 20% of the market.. and i still have had some issues.. not drastic and defiantly better than 700 renters.. and one renter destroyed one home 45k in damage..  But by and larger better results.. now they don't cash flow as well % return wise on paper but I suspect over the long haul I did better than many who bought stuff that looked great up front and they end up with stories like yours.

     My rentals aren't below $1k and given all markets differ, in this one, the range of $1300+ is one that commands a good tenant, all things being equal with good credit and a bank account. If here were a grading system, mine would be B's. In this case it was tenant screening that they got through.

    Signs were tell tale later onto the rent period and I knew I was not renewing them. Juxtaposed to them are one of my other tenants that treat the place great and are pro about informing the PM of any potential issues - like today with a downed tree limb on the property.

    Good info on the lack of a checking account. Later into the rental period they bounced 2 checks and the PM would no longer accept from them - only cash. Again, prior to that I had already decided to not renew.

    1Reply
  • Dean M.
    Investor · Sharpsburg, GA · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 15 votes
    9y
    After 14 years of landlording I have learned (the hard way) the importance following up on the property occasionally to review how well the property is being treated.
    9Reply
  • Betty Klein
    Investor · Reno, NV · Member since 2017 · 66 posts · 39 votes
    9y

    I second that advice, which puts me in direct conflict with long distance landlording.   Last week I got a call from my gardener that my tenant turned off the irrigation 2 weeks ago, because she did not want to pay her water bill!  A quick drive by confirmed it. A definitive no no in July in the desert.  The management company was completely unaware since she was regular on her rent payment.  They installed a lockbox for the timer the next day and served a 30 day notice to vacate.   I had the same thing happen years ago as long distance landlord . When I did my yearly visit it was very expensive to fix the landscape.

    4Reply
  • Cody L.
    Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    Very fair. Tenants rate landlords. I've thought MANY times about making a tenant review site.
    5Reply
  • Account Closed
    San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    This sounds like a PM issue.  Another example of how PMs profit by getting bad tenants into a unit.

    Manage your own properties.  Do good screening.  It's really rare for someone with great credit and job history to trash a place, even if that's all you have to go on - without prior landlord references.

    5Reply
  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Betty Klein:

    I second that advice, which puts me in direct conflict with long distance landlording.   Last week I got a call from my gardener that my tenant turned off the irrigation 2 weeks ago, because she did not want to pay her water bill!  A quick drive by confirmed it. A definitive no no in July in the desert.  The management company was completely unaware since she was regular on her rent payment.  They installed a lockbox for the timer the next day and served a 30 day notice to vacate.   I had the same thing happen years ago as long distance landlord . When I did my yearly visit it was very expensive to fix the landscape.

     And the tenant knew when she moved in that she would be responsible for the water bill for the sprinklers and still went against the agreed terms? Sad that people agreed to things knowing they won't comply.

    Good idea on the lock down.

    1Reply
  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    This sounds like a PM issue.  Another example of how PMs profit by getting bad tenants into a unit.

    Manage your own properties.  Do good screening.  It's really rare for someone with great credit and job history to trash a place, even if that's all you have to go on - without prior landlord references.

     Well this is a first and it happened. 

    While I can't get the details I am given enough to say yes or no. And I have turned down some - also switched PMs in the past due to their bar being set to high that all would fail the screening for which the PM put the onerous on the owner to accept, and if they did and something went wrong, the PM would not be held accountable (stated in their contract). 

    Everyone can't self manage for any number of reasons - while others may be able to do that it's just not doable for all.

    2Reply
  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Angel Lowe:

    @Daria B. There is a bad tenants database called RenterInc that's legal (according to their website) and I've submitted some of my bad tenants on there. They are relatively new startup from my city, Sacramento, CA. That's how I learned about it and have been using it for couple months now. However, I've been using their online landlord reference check service more then reporting bad tenants :(

    @Cody L. maybe you could join the owners at RenterInc and see if you can join them.

    I will look into that. :-) 

    1Reply
  • Tyler De Young
    Developer · Bozeman, MT · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 19 votes
    9y

    Haha i love this.  I had renters paint my perfectly smooth walls with purple 'textured paint', when they moved out they tried to tell me this was an upgrade and that I should be paying them for the improvement.  The walls looked like they had grown facial hair, it was not an improvement.  Sometimes these move out conversations are just funny.

    6Reply
  • Daria B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gainesville, FL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 432 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Tyler De Young:

    Haha i love this.  I had renters paint my perfectly smooth walls with purple 'textured paint', when they moved out they tried to tell me this was an upgrade and that I should be paying them for the improvement.  The walls looked like they had grown facial hair, it was not an improvement.  Sometimes these move out conversations are just funny.

     And for things like that, it's a no contest when the lease specifically states "no altering" including paint. But they do it anyway.  

    0Reply
  • Tyler De Young
    Developer · Bozeman, MT · Member since 2017 · 10 posts · 19 votes
    9y

    @Daria B. its almost funny once you get over the inconvenience and loss of time/money; but I adopt the, "if you don't laugh, you'll cry" principle.  

    10Reply
  • Brooklyn A.
    Eustis, FL · Member since 2017 · 96 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    This isn't borderline, this is unlawful. The amount of liability assumed for your entry for any of your previous, current, or prospective tenants (on a contact basis) is an issue of law and individual, as well as your company's liability. This squarely violates Federal statutes.

    I understand your frustration, but LLs do get their opportunity to give their recommendations when previous tenants use them as a reference.

    0Reply
  • Justin Fox
    Software Developer · Vidor, TX · Member since 2015 · 922 posts · 639 votes
    9y

    I think a better service would be to simply list previous landlords for a given tenant, searchable by drivers license number/state AND/OR first/middle/last name.  That way you could tell if the tenant was lying about having references or conveniently left out a negative mark.  All that would be displayed is a redacted DL for visual confirmation and a contact form for the selected LL, no defamation, no indication of whether or not they were evicted or didn't pay, just a simple 'Request Contact Info by Email' form (would contact the specific LL by the provided email at registration).

    A site like this would have to be heavily moderated for LL registration and a LL adding him/herself to a particular tenant as a previous reference.  For instance, LL property ownership verification and first/last page of lease providing the tenant/address/lease-term information and signatures.  Everything would have to be approved hands-on...

    Cross-state tenants and fake IDs would be another pickle.

    2Reply
  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    9y

    Tenant review sites are an old idea. They have been frowned up, and one could find themselves being sued for invasion of privacy. The ONLY info you COULD LEGALLY state would be public records such as evictions and judgements. However, they are already public record.

    1Reply
  • Brooklyn A.
    Eustis, FL · Member since 2017 · 96 posts · 6 votes
    9y

    I can't answer this without betraying legal strategy. You're likely a purveyor of that product line. Though, I'll tell you that I wish my name and any details referring to me were on that list. 

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Daria B.   @Jay Hinrichs    How much would you be willing to pay for a service where landlords could report how tenants did at previous properties?  This would be a fairly easy service to create.  Of course there would have to be a fairly long start up period to get enough reports into the database to be worth using it.

    0Reply
  • Llewelyn A.
    Investor / Broker · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2016 · 665 posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I believe a great strategy for Tenant Screening, other than the usual Background/Credit/Income checks, is to get a letter of recommendation from the current Landlord AND, at the same time, PROVE that they have paid their rent for the last 12 months ON TIME and are CURRENT on their rent.

    While no strategy is foolproof, this one prevents getting a letter of recommendation from a Landlord who just wants to get rid of a bad tenant.

    Bad tenants probably 95% of the time are not current on their rents and certainly do not have 12 months of on time payments.

    While I didn't implement this until recently, one of my tenants that is searching for a cheaper apartment was asked to give proof of on time monthly rent payments while I gave him a Letter or Recommendation.

    In other words, the on time monthly rent payments corroborated the story given by the Letter or Recommendation.

    While I haven't had a tenant issue for the last decade, I do believe this is a GREAT strategy to try and weed out bad tenants.

    From now on, this has become my policy.

    I also let some of my tenants who have a habit of paying late that their Rent History is very important and they should treat it more important than their Credit History.

    If you can prove you have a great Rent Payment History, dings in your credit which may have come from something like a Divorce, etc. can be looked at in a better light, or so I believe.

    All my tenants are on an online Payment System, Rentalutions.

    They all have access to their Payment History and can produce a report. Submitting this is virtually painless for either my tenant leaving for an other apt or for me to give it to them as their proof.

    Let me know if this makes sense at all.

    4Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    9y

    @Daria B. there are databases in addition to Renterinc that other people have started too, but nothing has gained mass traction. The problem is that any angry landlord could put someone on a list. The proof is often he-said she-said, so that is why these lists face potential legal problems.

    The best system we have as landlords is the US legal system. That means when someone damages your property, stand firm on the damages. Either they pay or take them to court. Bad tenants will often have judgement against them, so when you run a credit report and see "XYZ Property Management", that is your best clue.

    The other side of the argument is that some tenants are falsely accused or over charged. I have seen charges that are so high, it would be considered illegal. For that reason I wouldn't trust every landlord to rightly be placing people on lists. Court systems are there to mediate.  

    The other side of this is that there are also websites for landlord reviews, like reviewmylandlord.com so we all run the risk of getting put wrongly on a list. 

    4Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Account Closed  me personally nothing as I am retiring from landlording but i bet others would pay a nice yearly fee to access to this data base.. the folks that self manage at least

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  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Daria B.   @Jay Hinrichs    How much would you be willing to pay for a service where landlords could report how tenants did at previous properties?  This would be a fairly easy service to create.  Of course there would have to be a fairly long start up period to get enough reports into the database to be worth using it.

    Unfortunately this is like the 20th thread I have read where someone suggested the idea of a database. People always chime in pointing out what is already out there (google search to see). The point is this isn't a new idea. Others have tried and failed to gain traction. The database is no good if hardly anyone uses it. Charging money would make it even less likely that people would use it. The biggest problem is liability. A landlord has nothing to gain after the tenant is gone. 

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Daria B.   @Jay Hinrichs    How much would you be willing to pay for a service where landlords could report how tenants did at previous properties?  This would be a fairly easy service to create.  Of course there would have to be a fairly long start up period to get enough reports into the database to be worth using it.

    Unfortunately this is like the 20th thread I have read where someone suggested the idea of a database. People always chime in pointing out what is already out there (google search to see). The point is this isn't a new idea. Others have tried and failed to gain traction. The database is no good if hardly anyone uses it. Charging money would make it even less likely that people would use it. The biggest problem is liability. A landlord has nothing to gain after the tenant is gone. 

    I agree that there would have to be a long start up period.  Probably at least two to three years without a fee.

    0Reply
  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    My LL buddies and I give each other a courtesy 'turd alert' by phone, text or e-mail.  "So and so is looking for a place.  Their LL just gave them cash for keys.  Watch your shade."

    Had an evicted tenant e-mail me on a recent CL ad.  I don't add my name or number anymore.  Said their last place was lost to fire.  On and on. LOL

    Watch out for long stories at every turn.  Watch out if they are in an emergency, followed by a story.  Watch out for holes in address history.  Vacancy is better than a turd.  Pre-screen with lots of questions about how much they smoke, how many animals, etc.   Good luck out there!

    3Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Steve Vaughan Or as one of my clients is doing and buy every avaliable house in a little berg.. tenants have no choice but to deal with you.. or move out of town.

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    2Reply
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