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Updated almost 8 years ago, 01/09/2017
Tenant threating to Sue
I'll try to keep this brief. I have a rental property in Charlotte, NC and the gas fireplace hasn't worked for awhile. While my property manager was in the process of getting an estimate, the tenant (without approval) hired his own contractor to fix the gas line at $360. I am responsible for paying $150 to fix a few other things to get it working. Now that the fireplace is working the tenant is threatening to take me to court for the $360 that he spent, which he was told many times not to do on his own. I know NC isn't a very friendly state for landlords (in my experience) but I am not willing to reimburse him for something that he did without my approval. In my eyes he is in breach of the lease agreement, but I am not an attorney. Is it going to cost me more than $360 to defend myself therefore should I just bite the bullet and reimburse his $360? A precedent has been set with the tenant that when he acts like a bully, makes threats he gets his way and I want to end this. But I am not interested in it costing me thousands to defend myself and then perhaps lose anyway. Any advice would be appreciated, especially if you are familiar with landlord/tenant laws in NC.
What is the exact wording in your lease regarding repairs? You say he has been there for 2 months and is already doing stuff like this. It is not going to stop.
I hope your lease covers tenants making repairs on his own. If it does, I would file an eviction based on violation of lease terms. Hopefully your lease says something along the lines of "landlord will handle all repairs" or "tenant agrees not to to make any repairs, alterations" etc etc
Seriously, 2 months in and he is threatening to sue over something he should not have done. Consider yourself lucky he gave you a reason to evict, file the eviction, and move on.
Question: Did you advertisement or lease mention a working fireplace? Did you tell him you would get it fixed?
@Jerry Benson Some good info here.
My take - What would it have cost for you to do it. Close to the $360? Yes? Licensed Contractor pulled a Permit? Yes? Pay him.
PS That's all the Judge or Magistrate will ask...
PPS Go to a couple of Sessions of Small Claims or where ever they're threatening to take you. You won't believe the Cases, Plaintiffs and Defendants:-(
Also good advice to not renew their Lease!
As I always say: "I've never had a Bad Tenant go Good on Me!"
Originally posted by @Jerry Benson:
The tenant has been in the house for 2 months and hasn't stopped complaining since he moved in. I've bent over backwards to keep him happy and have done everything he has asked even if I wasn't obligated to do so. The house is a great house, the fireplace is a luxury item that provides no heat whatsoever, the HVAC is the main source of heat and air. I even made an exception to allow him to rent my house because he had a little dog and I don't allow pets. But, I felt bad for him because he had no other options. I've built more good will with this tenant than any tenant before and it is never enough. I'm a good guy, follow the law and do the right thing for my tenants. He treats my PM like garbage and makes threats any time he can. I've offered to split the difference, etc. he will only accept full reimbursement.
No good deed goes unpunished.
I would not pay him anything. He is a bully who will not stop bullying you until he no longer lives in your home. I like the comment that as soon as they mention the word sue or lawsuit, I cease communication and have them go through the attorney.
This person is 2 months into a 12 month lease? You did him a favor by allowing his dog and this is how he repays you.
You are in for 10 months of abuse. I'd send him a note, telling him that he obviously isn't happy with you or your management style, and that you will gladly allow him out of his lease by the end of January if he allows you to show it to prospective tenants once a week. Someone familiar with your area said rentals are in short supply. You won't be vacant long.
Next time, don't ease up your requirements. It isn't your fault he has no other options.
Ive asked my PM to tell me what exactly is in the lease to see what my obligations are....legally.
Eric, you are correct, he will never stop so I am trying to find the most cost effective way to end this, but send a message that we will not keep playing these games for the next 10 months. He seems to want his way and only his way, no compromise and no negotiation. He is apparently always right, in his mind.
Mike, we are trying to get a contractor out there to see what we would've paid and offer to pay that amount since we get much better rates than what he paid. But he doesn't care, he wants all his money to be reimbursed. We shall see how it goes.
Aren't PM supposed to have in house attorneys that they use to handle this stuff or at least have someone they can talk to protect me? Just curious to see if I am expecting to much from my PM or if they just aren't equipped to take care of my best interests. I would think that the PM would be advising me on what my options are but it doesn't seem to be that way. I like my PM, but this situation seems a bit out of their wheelhouse. Thoughts?
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If he is in violation of the lease for performing unauthorized repairs, what does your lease say about such remedies?
The best idea is somewhere above: get the quote from your guy to repair the fireplace and pay him that amount. You were going to spend that anyway (I think you said $150), so you are not out anything you weren't already going to spend. Beyond that, when this guy's lease is up you need to send him packing.
Something you may want to consider in the future: all of our homes with fireplaces are listed and considered as "non-working, for decoration only", despite the fact that virtually of them do work. I don't want tenants using a fireplace. If this house is so high-end that the gas fireplace would be considered a feature of the home, then you should maintain as required; otherwise, I would consider disabling the feature.
PS: Your major mistake was "I felt sorry for him because he had no other options". No one ever has "no other options". It's a good lesson to learn as you move forward in your landlording career.
PSS: Most people who are going to sue, just do so. Most people who SAY they are going to sue are just trying to bluff/bully you into something. I would ignore that part of it altogether.
PSSS: Staff attorneys are not part of a PM package in my experience. Very large ones might have someone on retainer, but you'll pay for that privilege.
- JD Martin
- Podcast Guest on Show #243
If the repair is done professionally it has a finite value. Suggest you offer 51-49. Just give him his share hinting your patience is limited.
We have many well educated professionals some often take repairs in their hands with load lord objection. They think they are exceptional. You need good reliable folks not someone making threats. It needs to have a good relationship to make it work.
@Jerry Benson With regards to his difficulty finding a place, we have a policy of not making other people's problems our problem. I also wonder how well your PM screened this guy. I can't believe a previous landlord would have said good things about him. Maybe he was having a problem finding a place in that other people were screening him better.
That being said, you have to train your tenant. When they make an unreasonable demand you need to remind them that it's not reasonable and that the lease says they pay rent in exchange for the property as-is besides lease and law required repairs. A request to fix a fireplace is reasonable, all you need to demonstrate there is that you are working on it and get it done in a reasonable timeframe, assuming it wasn't a safety issue like a gas leak, and that in this case you were working on making the repair. If they request something that is a want more than a need, tell them thanks for the feedback, that you'll think about it or take care of it during next seasons inspection.
I have had a new tenant yell in my face about wanting something ridiculous, saying 20 years ago they were landlords and they did this and that, had I given in to their request who knows what else they would have demanded. They ended up being pretty great tenants, once I explained that it was their choice how they ran their previous landlording business and our choice how we run ours. They *did* renew their lease the next year.
Obviously this guy trained you. Not sure if that is reversable. Not knowing the guy I don't know if he would damage your property out of anger either. It may be best at this point to follow others advice about invoking the "happy clause" and make some deal with him to just get him out of your place, maybe tell him you'll reimburse him in full once he's moved out,and I would find out if your PM could have caught this ahead of time, if so, time for another PM or time to self-manage.
IMHO, and after reading your post it sounds like you did everything properly and in a timely fashion yet the tenant still went out to fix things on their own accord for their own convenience. There is a big difference between what your landlord responsibilities are vs. what is convenient for the tenant. And, as long as you know and act in accordance to the landlord laws that govern your property, you should be confident of your position and not fear threats to sue. Of course be sure to maintain a paper trail (via email, letter, text message) and not by phone conversations. And save everything as it relates to this tenant (as you should for all tenants).
Remember, that a threat to sue is just that... A threat. And in my experience, many times these threats are bluffs to push your buttons and see what they can get away with. I don't take threats to sue seriously unless they are written by an attorney, or I receive a summons to appear in court. And the few times I have had to go to small claims court, the plaintiff either no shows, or gets destroyed by my stack of documentation.
Dont let tenants bully you. Train your tenants to act the way you want them to. If they refuse, weed them out. Do NOT RENEW this lease:)
Good luck with it and I wish you the best on your situation!
Some real good responses here. My thoughts are below, many have been brought up already.
1) Is there language about the fireplace in the lease? Is it included as a fixture? If so, then it most likely your responsibility to keep it in working order.
2) In my standard lease, I have a clause strictly prohibiting the tenant from authorizing any maintenance work without my written approval. Might be something you want to add for future reference.
3) Is this a good tenant? If so, just paying the cost and having him sign an addendum to not authorize work in the future is a lot cheaper than a vacancy.
4) Were you going to fix it anyway? If so, then let it go, man...
@Linda S.) get his way.
What's more important to you, principles or profits? If you only own a few units, your principles in this case just don't matter. It's not like the tenant is going to be able to get the word out that you're a pushover, and get other tenants to bill you for unapproved improvements, too. If I were you, I would just pay the $360 (assuming the tenant provides a paid receipt), and in the future, make it a priority that every feature of every unit is functional.
On a slightly different note, this situation is exactly the reason I would not and do not rely on habitable vs inhabitable dichotomy-driven decision making. If the tenant has any reason to complain and the guts to go out and get the complaint taken care of, you end up in this lose-lose situation. Even if the tenant is completely wrong, it's going to cost you time and money.
@Jerry Benson, one thing I'd suggest, because we had a similar situation, where it seemed like the tenants constantly complained.. is to remind them that "renting is a 2-way street, and you want them to be happy, so if they aren't happy in the house or they think too much is wrong with it, you'll let them out of the lease early"... along those lines, it's professional, courteous... but also indirectly tells them to stop complaining or leave. Also remind them that they signed the lease in as-is condition, and while you strive to continually improve the property, you don't have direct plans to fix XYZ, however it is in your long term plan... stuff like that, it acknowledges their complains, and I'm sure you do plan on doing more stuff, just not right now. Hope this helps!
Originally posted by @Jerry Benson:
Ive asked my PM to tell me what exactly is in the lease to see what my obligations are....legally.
Eric, you are correct, he will never stop so I am trying to find the most cost effective way to end this, but send a message that we will not keep playing these games for the next 10 months. He seems to want his way and only his way, no compromise and no negotiation. He is apparently always right, in his mind.
Mike, we are trying to get a contractor out there to see what we would've paid and offer to pay that amount since we get much better rates than what he paid. But he doesn't care, he wants all his money to be reimbursed. We shall see how it goes.
Aren't PM supposed to have in house attorneys that they use to handle this stuff or at least have someone they can talk to protect me? Just curious to see if I am expecting to much from my PM or if they just aren't equipped to take care of my best interests. I would think that the PM would be advising me on what my options are but it doesn't seem to be that way. I like my PM, but this situation seems a bit out of their wheelhouse. Thoughts?
Whether or not the PM has attorneys in house doesn't matter to you. Those attorneys are to protect their asses. You need to get real familiar with your lease real fast, it is what you agreed to.
Honestly, I wouldn't pay anything. I see a lot of people suggesting you pay him half. Why? He broke the rules. You have to stand your ground at some point and you have arrived at that point. If he was otherwise a good tenant I would pay half, but this guy is going to keep taking advantage of you. There is a big difference between compromising with a good tenant and compromising with a bad tenant. This is a bad tenant. You have already gone against your rules (the dog) and if you do it again (paying for any part of this unauthorized repairs) there will be a third time. Each time you violate your own lease you just make it that much harder to not violate it in the future.
Don't pay him anything, read your lease, and pray to god there are grounds to evict him for making unauthorized repairs. It is pretty obvious your situation with this tenant is never going to get better, just rip off the band aid now.
PS I have reimbursed a good tenant for having emergency repairs before. We had a snow storm, branches fell on the roof, and she paid these guys about $100 to get them off. The power was out and she could not call me. I paid her back. But this tenant you have, he is not a good tenant. No way I would compromise with him in any way. You do it this time, there will be the next time.
@Jerry Benson Jerry, I think the first question that needs to be answered is what you would be doing if you weren't fighting the tenant. If you are going to instead pursue acitivites that will make you money, just pay the bill and get on with your business activities. The question at hand is what the opportunity cost of your time and effort is.
If you don't have much going on, I would look into your state's laws regarding the matter. One potential answer is to agree to pay him for the costs, in order for him to give up his keys. However, this answer will depend on what he's renting for, loss-to-lease, management intensity goals, etc. all in all, I would find it hard to believe that it is worth your time and energy to fight him over $360 bucks. A smart investor like yourself, with the weapons of BP at your disposal, could instead make much more money.
My prideful response: Spend every last waking moment ensuring he doesn't get a penny !
Hope this helps Jerry,
Kenny Reimer
Assuming the fireplace is not the main source of heat (and this doesn't make the place inhabitable), it is really a contractual issue--i.e. What exactly does your lease provide for:
- who is responsible for repairs?
- does the tenant have to give written notice of a defect, giving the landlord 30 days (or some other number of days) to remedy the defect?
- is written notice required by the tenant prior to making repairs?
As people mentioned above, this most likely come down to what notices were sent to who and any responses (actual documentation). If there are any issues--e.g., you were responsible for the repair and failed to make it within a required time period after you received the required notice--then I would just pay the tenant and be done with it.
Assuming you fulfilled all your obligations under the lease (and it is the tenant at fault), and you decide to go to court, here are my 2 cents. If you hire a lawyer for this, you will not end up ahead (unless you get an attorney to do it for free). Were you planning on making the repair? If so, the practical answer (forget the legal answer on whether or not you win in court), get the repair paper work from the tenant and compare that to what you would have paid. Assuming the tenant's contractor performed the work satisfactorily, offer to pay the tenant whatever you would have ended up paying anyway (and the tenant can eat any additional cost he paid). I think this is the most reasonable approach.
Proving yet again that "No good deed goes unpunished". Keep your philanthropic activities apart from your rental property business. Every time you do a "favor" because you feel sorry for the guy, you will be the one who will be sorry later.
Your tenant is an idiot and will be a problem moving forward. Offer to let them out of the lease and reimburse them. I have had a tenant threaten "under the law" on me. His emails just gave me more evidence of his lies and incompetence. I think he dropped out of elementary school. Never heard from him again.
You're not responsible for that payment. What if the AC isnt cold enough during the summer can he than call a tech and bill you for that too? Go to court, and don't renew the losers lease!
If you and/or the PM have proof that the fix was in progress, even just scheduling, then you should be covered. If the tenant is threatening a "law suit" it will be done in small claims court in Mecklenburg county. You will not need or be required to have representation available if the tenant files claim. This will also cost the tenant $150-200 just in filing fees. I strongly doubt they are truly willing to do this and just threatening it to get their money back. I wouldn't necessarily consider a gas fireplace a necessary functioning system of the house that would be required to work. Just my opinion.
Full disclosure: I am not a lawyer
We had one like this a while back. Always complaining even though we fixed maintenence issues same day and did upgrades for them. Rudeness and ridiculousness actually increased the more we bent over backwards to please them. Then there were always the late rent excuses, we dont think we should have to pay the late fee, I don't have money for kids food followed immediately by their facebook pics of beach vacation, accusing my wife of putting their rent money order (dated and time stamped of course) back in their apt to illegally charge late fee, claiming we weren't allowed to enter their unit even after proper notice or when they requested repairs and telling us they had us on camera
We served 30 day notice for them to leave after they went month to month. They of course angrily threatened to sue us. Tenants like this are the absolute worst part of this business.
Nicely and professionally tell this guy you'll see him in court and formulate a plan to get rid of him. Or maybe throw some money at him to get rid of him if you want. Whatever you decide, I would advise taking back control from this idiot. It will only get worse if you cave - doesn't matter if you or tenant are in the wrong.
If you were already planning to have it repaired anyway (regardless of whether you were obligated to), then you're not out $360. You're out $360 minus what your own contractor would have done it for. So it's a relatively inexpensive lesson.
Pay the $360, but get something in return. Specifically, tighten up your lease. Require the tenant to sign an addendum that clarifies your policy on unauthorized repairs going forward. That's a reasonable request...to avoid future misunderstandings and because you can't afford the liability of the tenant making their own utility repairs. And if you need to, include additional language to clean up any other weaknesses in the lease language. Keep him in his box.
You want $360? Sign here.
PS: I am not a lawyer.
I once had a tenant who made unauthorized charges on the rental he was living in. It became very contentious. He billed me over every little thing he didn't want to pay for while he built his $330k home. I wish I'd had these answers and this forum to help me back then.
I also had to evict a tenant :-(not the same one), and it's costly, as well as a lengthy process, in KS. The tenant had 45 days to damage my rental during the eviction process. It was a nightmare. The only good thing was finally getting a non-payer with hundreds of excuses for not being able to pay the rent, out of my rental. The bad news was how long it took to clean and how expensive it was.
After that experience, I cleaned up, rebuilt that rental, and then sold it. I had to get out of the business of feeling sorry for people and learn how to be a landlord with boundaries. I heard that tenant ended up in prison for drug use, among other crimes. I had no idea until he started tearing my place up that he had a problem.
In the posts above a lot has been suggested by some very qualified folks. I wish you all the best Jerry and let us know the final result.