Entitled Tenants from hell....but my mistake for being "nice"

Entitled Tenants from hell....but my mistake for being "nice"

Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes

I have a small house on 18 acres.   We have rented it out 5 times with no complaints.  In the last 4 years we we have totally renovated it adding a sun room, new HVAC, electrical, plumbing, and refinishing floors, refurbished the buck stove etc. you get the picture. When the new tenants moved in July 2014.  I told them I have done everything but upgrade the insulation and that was on my list to get done.  A month after they moved in her boyfriend lost his job and since has not found another.  I have accepted late and partial rent ($750) with no late fees for the past 5 months.  I know... 1st mistake and been way too nice lending them things.   They have paid in full by the end of each month but then, I get this email from her.  I responded with an eviction notice, which I received another tenant email after that... just as long as this one as to why I was so angry and being unfair.

Hello Lisa & Billy,

Shannon and I write you today in a spirit of compromise and cooperation in hopes that there can be a consensus about the current situation at the Holsclaw House that we rent from you. Though it is understood from your recent email about your medical issue and current financial situation that it is not the best time of year for you to be fixing the weatherization of our rental, it is also law for you to upkeep your rental as duties of being our landlords. To be frank, no matter what is going on with your end, the upkeep and safety of the rental is your responsibility. We believe it is none of our business the personal decisions you are making about your own home or the business decisions of other rentals, if you are not able to upkeep the house we are renting, you are not able to charge us the full rent originally agreed upon. This is not personal, it is law. It was noticed, but not yet abundantly clear until the inspection was done to completion, the reasoning for our high utilities from the beginning. We were wondering why the house had difficultly keeping the cool air from the Air Conditioning in summer when we did run it. And now we know. I was sincerely shocked to understand that there are whole large sections of the roof from the attic ceiling that are just exposed tin---no wood or insulation at all, where it would be needed most. It is no wonder we are not able to keep heat in this house. Let alone the discovery that the insulation--or what is a crumbled mess left of it in the walls are at least 30-50 years old (per inspector)--so large sections of the house is as if not insulated at all. Billy also mentioned you have had the pipes freeze and burst under the house in recent years, and you can easily see why. Most of the pipes are exposed and not at all insulated, while the ones remaining with insulation have very old, half falling off foam. The gentleman from the first inspection in August mentioned the piles of filter material lay sitting in the attic-especially near the chimney area are a fire hazard and should be removed. This is all especially alarming with the knowledge there has been a fire in the house before. Though it may have been quite some time ago, there is little to no upkeep to the weatherization of this house, other than the working fire place and the option to run the Central Heat/Air full blast. It is simply not acceptable whatsoever that your answer to us is to "DIY" the house when it is not our responsibility. That is why we pay you rent. It is not our home to upkeep in that manner.

When you showed us the rental, and upon move in on more than one occasion, I (Julia) spoke to you both about the weather stripping needed for some of the older windows and both the front & back door. I asked if we should do it ourselves then and deduct the cost off rent. I said I was however afraid to do it ourselves anyway since it is a historic home and I don't want to mess up any of the paint and or moulding on the house. You said you planned on getting a weatherization/energy inspection anyhow, and that it would be taken care of. Now we are told to "DIY" and to just apply to utility assistance programs. It's not going to happen. There is also confusion on our end as to the problem of financial timing on your end. The first,though not fully complete, inspection was done on August 27th. We heard nothing from you two about it after until the scheduled appointment to actually do the work in November. Then all the sudden you cannot afford to do any of it? You had from August to November to prepare for the weatherization of this home.

I understand that this is a vacation home for you two, and that you may have not spent too much time there in the winter to understand how it is there, but we rented this house with your promise that it is a year round ready rental, and that you were going to do the weatherization inspection and follow through with it. We are already experiencing nights--and have been off and on for weeks now, where the weather has reached freezing and below. According to several sections of the Landlord Tenant Act, it is your sole duty to A) make all repairs and do whatever is necessary to put and maintain the premises in a fit and habitable condition B) Maintain in good working order and condition the all heating/ventilation C) Supply reasonable heat and running hot water between October 1st-May 1st. We would really really like to have the pipes insulated so that we don't encounter the problem of no water or hot water if they burst. It would be costly for you to repair as well.

We have made sure you have been paid full rent every single month, though the condition of the home has not been up kept (i.e. weatherized). We are also concerned about the safety issues of the attic. As stated before, writing with a spirit of compromise and cooperation, we would like this email to be considered a thirty day notice to please weatherize the house in accordance with the inspection given by Energy Savers Company on November 23rd. In the meantime, we would like to open up a written dialogue (via email here) as to the fairness of charging us full rent until the weatherization can happen. We would like to propose paying $500 for the month of December, so that leaves us a $250 window for the significant increase in the LGE Bill and the need to drip the water at night when it gets cold enough, i.e. the raise in the Louisville Water Bill, not to mention dealing with the situation for longer. If the job is scheduled for January, maybe we could do a pro-rate for the time frame until it is done. If you agree to these terms, we would like an amendment to the original lease drawn up and signed by you, and sent in the mail for us to also sign and return a copy to you. As stated, we are not trying to specifically cause any grievance or rift between you and us, it is simply a matter of what is law and fair. We feel the services that should be provided by paying full rent are not there as promised. Therefore we should not be charged the full rental amount of $750.00. Please let us know at your earliest convenience via email response as to your decision about the matters at hand at your earliest convenience.

Aside from the rent money and the weatherization, there are a few more things we needed to communicate about:

A) The old vintage fridge has still not been picked up by LGE. I know you said it would be two weeks at max, but that would be in two days so I wanted to give you a heads up about that.

B)We have noticed that there is not a fireplace rope seal for the door of it, which is not only needed for safety reasons, but also for proper usage of the fireplace.

C) We wanted to reiterate what we have requested and stated to you several times before which is that we not only highly prefer a 48 hour notice before coming to the Holsclaw House, it is also law. Shannon and I both shouldn't always have to be prepared on a dime to drop what we are doing because it happens to fit your schedule. We have a schedule as well. Shannon also suffers greatly from PTSD, high levels of anxiety, and it is very difficult for him to engage in unexpected encounters. As you know us fairly well by now as tenants, we keep the place well, and just prefer the privacy. It is part of why anyone pays rent for their home. You may email me here or text me at the number # which is my cell phone during reasonable hours.

D) We are confused about the issue of the chainsaw. When we first rented the place, Billy said he would provide a working chainsaw for free for us to use to saw the downed wood on the property that has been agreed upon. When given the first chainsaw that did not work (needed serious repairs) and was not safe since it did not have a guard/or a chain stop, you then repaired another chainsaw for us to use. It was not until waiting for then months on end for a working chainsaw that we were given one to use a few weeks ago. During those two weeks we have a had a major holiday (Thanksgiving) and several days of rain. Why is it that all the sudden we have a time limit on the chainsaw? Yet again, this is part and parcel of how we are trying to heat the home. Shannon has done a lot of work with it thus far, but we are running through wood fast due to the heating issue. It would help us out greatly to be able to continue to use the chainsaw through December so we can finish the work we started.

I know this is a rather large email and it will take some time to come to a few decisions and write us back. Please let me reiterate that being a landlord and renting out property is a business. You supply the house/property in good working order and we pay you rent. If I were to write you and say "sorry, we want to use rent on personal things so you don't get it this month" you wouldn't like that either. We want fairness in the situation, and that is all we are asking.

Thank you in advance for your time and efforts.

Sincerely, Julia & Shannon

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Mike CumbieBusiness Member
REALTOR® · Brockport, NY · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
10y

Hi @Lisa Casey,

My couple points.

1) I would recommend following the lease to the letter for rent etc

2) I would not allow her to decide "When little adjustments need to be made for the rent". From the tone of her letter it sounds like every month she is taking some money off here and there and deciding when she should and shouldn't. If she needs something fixed she can contact you. For the remainder of the lease I would fix everything myself or send someone out. Do not give her the power to change her rent at will.

3) What is causing them to be removed from the house for a day to stay with family? You might want to consult your lease/local law, it may only be 1/30th assuming it is something that you forced her to lose access to the house.

4) All my discussions with her would be as short as possible. Make sure they simply state facts. No opinions or long winded posts. Simple like "Contractor will be there at 1:00PM on January 4th to fix hole in driveway".

5) She knows a whole lot about you and your family on a personal level and has no problem bringing things up if it suits her needs. I would ensure she did not have any additional information from you. I also would not be in conversations where she had that opportunity again, I would be business only (but polite). It sounds like you guys were friendly and able to stop over and grab things or take care of things and they took it as an invasion. Ensure you are not getting that close.

6) If sending a inspector or contractor make sure you specify that they are not to discuss the work with the tenant. This whole situation was actually caused because you got a free home efficiency inspection and the guy went out and played the sales game on your tenants. He was telling them how bad everything was and what all needed to be done and how they were going to die if they didn't get this changed. Had that company had any professionalism they would not have been discussing these things with them and instead with the owner.

Just my two cents and good luck!

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    I would have to in this case agree with @Matthew Kreitzer  two unemployed adults living in your house will get help from Legal aid.  It 's good you started the process already but I would get someone on board legally to help speed this up as much as possible.   The tenants will fight and get short term help with finances to try to keep staying in the home because they have nowhere to go.

  • Deerwood, MN · Member since 2014 · 184 posts · 122 votes
    10y

    They aren't experienced, they are just a bit smarter than some.

    Sorry, but you are not good at this, nor am I. I dealt with a similar situation.  You will be rid of them soon enough. Just deal with it until they get behind by a month and then evict with good cause. 

  • Investor · Socal · Member since 2015 · 222 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    So are they both unemployed? That explains the great lengths they go to spin a long drawn out written story out of every issue they have with you - right down to most every tool you ever were nice enough to allow them borrow - is very telling. And the way it reads is as if it has been written to portray you as an owner who ironically has no interest in maintaining and preserving her property's use and value.

    If I were you I'd list it up for sale without further ado meanwhile pursue the unlawful detainer/eviction if applicable.

    How much back rent do they owe?

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    I figured out BPers...dah?  They are now both unemployed, he lost his job at the beginning of Aug. and as far as I know is not receiving any unemployment benefits or able to get another job.  She lost her job Jan. 3rd.  They are currently behind $750 in rent, they have been served Writ of Forcible Detainer by the Sheriff and a court date has been set Feb 10th. Feb 1st they will owe another $750.

    Also, just for information.  We bought the property because we loved it and planned on living there in retirement. So it was not bought as a rental for investment purposes. It is on 18 acres and adjacent to a Jefferson County Memorial Forest.  We have owned the property for 17 years and spent many weekends there when our son was young.  We have rented it out here and there over the years, when money has gotten tight and have had 0 complaints about us or the house.  Many tenants told us we were the best landlords they ever encountered. My son loved it up there and after he passed tragically at 19, we decided to put time and money into the house. The house had not been rented for the last 5 years, and we put $40K into it, upgrading to city water from well water, adding a sun room, new electric, refinishing all wall and floors, etc. etc.  It was not advertised for rent when we were approached by this couple, asking if we would consider renting the house to them.  We were very hesitant at first but they seemed like they loved it as we did and would take good care of it.   Now what a mistake we made!  If we wanted to sell, we would have no problem. The Parks Dept has approached us several time asking if we would be interested in selling and several other random people.

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    From my last post ....we are emotional attached to this property, and have even spread our son's ashes up there since he loved the property and loved hiking, mountain biking, animals and nature.  We have taken very good care of the property which makes our tenant''s accusations heart breaking.

  • Real Estate Investor · chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 231 votes
    10y

    if you bought this home as a 2nd home, the rent Is just gravy.  you've gotten 6 months of rent from them.   the eviction process is coming up. take a deep breath and try to relax (know it's easier said than done) and know that the end will be near. 

  • Investor · Socal · Member since 2015 · 222 posts · 34 votes
    10y

    Aww may I ask what he passed on off? (my only sib died of cancer after coming back from service in afghanistan & iraq thanks to the air force and depleted uranium galore.. my mom and his fiancee threw his ashes and sperm bank deposit (apparently harvested routinely before chemo?) in bowery bay steps from home in nyc)

    What do folks who've defaulted and realized they will never catch up to pay, do to delay eventual eviction off the premises? They build up a storyline that paints them the victims rather than squatters they likely are.

    If my tenants decided the insulation was inadequate I would likely use that as additional grounds to vacate the premises (with proper notice, ie 1 month) to move in and/or start such major improvements cited as needed.

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @John R.:

    What a mess!  I would suggest you and/or your husband should always have someone with you when you go over there now (48 hours notice!).  Not only for legal reasons but also for your safety.  And you really should get some help from someone who really knows the law on these issues of payment, notice to quit, your capacity to inspect the property for what remains of the term.  Do they not want you there because the relationship has soured, or could they be up to something else?  Who knows at this point, but I think you are well outside the bounds of DIY legal at this point.  Pay now or pay later...unfortunately it may be both.

     Ditto. You need legal counsel. Don't delay!

  • Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Lisa Casey:

    Update on Tenants...sorry in advance for the long story...

    Sent: Wed, Jan 27, 2016 11:26 am

    Subject: w9

    Ms. Casey

    Ms. Lynch has recently applied for financial assistance with our agency for her January’s rent. We are able to assist her with the amount of $400.00 contingent final approval. I am sending you a W9 so that we can issue a voucher to you on her behalf. If you should have any questions and or concerns, please contact my office

    Paulina Michaud

    Senior Social Worker

    Should I just ignore this letter and proceed with the eviction? The Social Worker told me the tenants are eligible for $300 in Feb and March also, and gave me a big sob story on how scared she was and how hard they are trying to pay.  (But as you see in mt tenant's emails she has not been crying on my shoulder.)  Our lease is very poor and has no late fees, no animal fees, they started with 2 cats which we approved and then added a dog.   No boundaries on the 18 acre property.  We thought about writing a new very strict lease (month to month) to cover all the bases and have them agree to it but I feel I am just setting myself up for more stress and failure. 

    Tell me how stupid I am for even considering this route, just need some support.

    Don't ignore the letter. Contact the social worker and request a meeting with her. She needs to know the whole story. Most agencies provide only temporary financial support. Bottom line, this couple can not afford to rent your property on going. If it comes to giving your tax identification information to a third party, make sure you have a legitimate written contract with the agency about what they will do for you and a copy of their privacy policy. Perhaps the social worker can help you and the tenants develop a move-out plan.

    Communication with the tenant needs to be done in a manner consistent with what is customary for the rental industry and your jurisdiction. Don't let the tenant dictate this. Phone calls, Emails and texting is not how legal matters are handled. You are now dealing with legal matters.

    Also, why didn't you serve the tenants with the Pay Rent or Quit notice sooner? Rent is due on the first but you don't require them to pay you until the 8th? Even though your rental agreement says one thing, your actions show another. A judge will likely note your actions are not consistent with the terms of the rental agreement and may not support you. You've muddied the waters. 

    Please seek the services of a qualified attorney who specializes in evictions. The tenants are seeking legal information and support from others, so should you. We are rooting for you and hope you do the right thing. Please set your emotions aside and tread carefully with the help of someone with expertise for your jurisdiction.

  • Rental Property Investor · Closter, NJ · Member since 2015 · 884 posts · 722 votes
    10y

    You were actually going to give Tenant's a chainsaw?  Really?  So the first time they cut off an arm or a leg, you are going to be sued for everything you own.

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    I actually did serve them with a 7 Pay or Quit Notice on Jan. 2nd, rent was due on the Jan.1st.  They did not respond to phone calls, emails, etc.  But on Jan.8th they dropped a money order in the mail box for part of the rent. I tried to call, many times that I will not accept partial rent and did not cash the money order.  The eviction office in Louisville told me to just hold on to it and file 

    I sent it by email and posted it on the door which is legal in all most all counties in  KY except, Jefferson County, when the rental is located

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Just to update the situation.  We went to court on Feb. 10th. Tenants showed up also offering many excuses and telling the judge I would have the rent if I would fill out the W9 for them to get rent assistance.  Judge told them the burden to pay was on them not me.  They also stated they did not get the 7 day notice in time cause they were out of town.  Judge told them they have been served.  The judge ruled in our favor and they got 7 days to appeal or vacate the property.As of today,  Feb 17th, they are still there and there has not been an appeal filed.

  • Landlord · Utica, MI · Member since 2015 · 190 posts · 99 votes
    10y

    @Lisa Casey Will you be able to have the sheriffs physically evict them?

  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Lisa Casey

    I wish they were as passionate about looking for a job as they were in scolding you about the responsibilities of a landlord.  These people are obviously leaches and have done this before.  I have been in this situation several times, and I just tried to get them out.

    Continue with the eviction.  I once told a tenant to move out and forget the 2 months that he owed me.  I even told him the current month would be free if he was out by the end of it.

    I lost 3 months rent but I also lost him.  Chalk it up to experience and a business loss.

    How much longer do they have on the lease?

    Gino

  • Missy H.Pro Member
    Investor · Bloomfield, NJ · Member since 2015 · 207 posts · 121 votes
    10y

    Sounds just like a situation that I had a couple of years ago.  But it was a single mother on social services with 4 young children (below 18 years) - next thing I know two adult children have moved in.  Three times in court for non-payment and each time she came up with a voucher or some sort of charitable assistance.  Even with a rent payment responsibility of $70 per month, she still could not pay.  I finally moved forward with the eviction and held firm with my decision when yet another charity promised to pay her back rent.  

    She was always pleasant and appreciative, but I finally kept my emotions out of it and made it purely professional.  Best move I ever made.

  • Augusta, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    So since their heinies are still parked there (on 2/7/2017) the hope is that you will be marching back to court/your local law enforcement agency to escort them off your property ASAP?

    Gail

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    My husband drove up there today to see if they left since this was the last day to move out.  We do take our dogs to the adjacent park to hike and have been up there several times in the past few weeks. (There is no way to get to the park with out passing the house.)

    Since they were still there we will continue with the Warrant of Possession.  I got this email today at 3 PM from our tenants, not sure if we can believe them:

    Lisa & Billy, please chill out on the drive bys. We have seen you do it a good 6 times in the last few weeks. We do not want an unnecessary confrontation. We have a Uhaul appointment set for tomorrow morning and will be out by tomorrow afternoon/evening. We were not able to have access to our new location til tomorrow afternoon. Its the best we could do in such a short notice. We will leave all keys on the kitchen table and write you here when we are leaving tomorrow. 

    I did not respond to the email.

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2015 · 33 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    If we proceed the sheriff will set them out. Their lease is up July 1st, 2016  to answer the questions asked.

  • Investor · Louisville, KY · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Lisa Casey:

    My husband drove up there today to see if they left since this was the last day to move out.  We do take our dogs to the adjacent park to hike and have been up there several times in the past few weeks. (There is no way to get to the park with out passing the house.)

    Since they were still there we will continue with the Warrant of Possession.  I got this email today at 3 PM from our tenants, not sure if we can believe them:

    Lisa & Billy, please chill out on the drive bys. We have seen you do it a good 6 times in the last few weeks. We do not want an unnecessary confrontation. We have a Uhaul appointment set for tomorrow morning and will be out by tomorrow afternoon/evening. We were not able to have access to our new location til tomorrow afternoon. Its the best we could do in such a short notice. We will leave all keys on the kitchen table and write you here when we are leaving tomorrow. 

    I did not respond to the email.

    It doesn't matter if you believe them or not, you should move forward with the set-out and get it behind you ASAP.

    If they do in fact have a Uhaul lined up then they ought to appreciate the extra help with getting their stuff out of the house!

  • Investor · SE, MI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 461 votes
    10y

    Hi Lisa,

    I just went through a somewhat similar situation, and after reading through this thread, my best advice is to stick to the plan and take the next step to get them out, no matter what they say.

    What I learned from my recently ex tenant, is that in that situation they will say anything to get you to give them just a little more time.  Mine kept saying she'd pay so I delayed filing, kept saying she was moving out that night but didn't until the night before I went to court to get the eviction.  

    Keep us posted and good luck!

  • Jacksonville, NC · Member since 2015 · 14 posts · 11 votes
    10y

    I hope you scheduled with the Sheriff's Office today, for tomorrow morning.

    It's a twofer.  If they have the uhaul, they'll get some help.  If they don't, you get to watch a show.  Either way, bring a bag of popcorn and a cooler of drinks and enjoy getting your house back.

  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2015 · 570 posts · 521 votes
    10y

    Wow, what a story!

    I sure hope they leave without doing anything stupid or crazy and you get your house back without concrete poured down the pipes. 

    She's a real piece of work, I feel really bad for their next landlord as she's getting educated each times she does this and is getting better and better at it, best part is she has done most of this to you with the help of your tax dollars paying for the salaries and services she has accessed of the public services she has been using such as legal aid and everything else. 

    These types  are the worst, they have nothing but time on their hands to spend figuring out how to screw others.

  • Rick BassettBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Greater New Haven, CT · Member since 2010 · 377 posts · 434 votes
    10y

    During evictions In Connecticut the judge (or mediator) will tell the tenants being evicted, if we ask them to, that they need to leave the place as they rented it in broom swept condition with no intentional damage or theft. They will also let them know that intentional damage or theft rises to the level of criminal activity.

    It's worked pretty well for us as it seems to keep the soon to be departed in line.

    Bassett Property Management5108 Reviews
  • Augusta, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    With this couple it's highly likely to your benefit to have law enforcement present to oversee their "move".  In my neck of the woods the Marshal will not lift a finger to assist in the physical aspect of the eviction but is there to oversee that things go smoothly without violence from either side.

    These tenants appear to believe that they still have control of the situation.  The presence of law enforcement may impart the fact that they no longer do.

    After the are out, immediately change the locks. Quite frankly, I'd also bring a drill and long screws to temporarily screw the windows shut.  Take pictures of the condition of the rental unit for possible future use.

    Gail

  • Real Estate Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2010 · 292 posts · 103 votes
    10y

    When  a tenant starts off with language like  "it's the law" and by citing landlord tenant statutes, it's a big turn off and tells me the tenant is trying to leverage the situation by getting all legal on me. Tenants who do that get put on  my "mental list" for lease termination at the earliest opportunity. However, if they simply come to me and say "I have some complaints and want to  know if you can help me resolve them" get my full attention and cooperation. Also, it's not uncommon for tenants to complain about things only after they run into difficulties themselves, e.g. being delinquent or late on rent, as  way to somehow "justify" or balance out their transgressions.

    As irritating as it is the way  they chose to complain, you have to consider their complaints to determine if they are legitimate or just overblown and unreasonable. There may be both. Health and safety issues, as well as any required as part of your local housing code, need to be fixed without delay or excuses on your part. Beyond that, it's a matter of the tenants reevaluating the house to determine if they are willing to live there for the contracted rent, even though there may be some issues not to their liking, e.g. inadequate insulation, etc. If they feel misled about the condition of the house, simply apologize and tell them what you are willing to do and not willing to do. As a landlord, you should be in the business of offering decent housing for a fair price, but if you're unable or unwilling to meet tenant expectations, and you  both cannot reach a compromise, the simple answer is for the tenants to find another house more suitable for them.  Finally, any tenant who has to go to a church for help paying rent is probably too weak financially to qualify for continued tenancy--unless it's just a one time thing.  The next time they need charity help, and strike out, you  will probably be the one taking it in the shorts.

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