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Updated almost 7 years ago, 01/30/2018
Pit bulls as service dogs.....
Just got a call in Indiana from a lady whose kid has a pit as a "service" dog.
Thoughts on this? Can I still discriminate against the breed as I normally do with pits, rotts and so on even if they have papers?
(Not a lawyer, no legal advice). I was very surprised and interested to recently read that basically not all service animals are in the same category.
The highest level is a certified animal who has gone through rigorous training and specifically helps an individual with a PHYSICAL (not emotional) disability. And this type of animal can ONLY be a dog or a miniature horse. Yes, a miniature horse. I am not making that up, lol. These types of animals can basically go anywhere their owner does with very, very few exceptions. The only exception specifically mentioned was a sterile environment, like an operating room.
The other type of service animal are the ones that are either for emotional support and/or a physical disability...but are either not a dog or haven't had the structured training. Contrary to popular belief, these animals do not need to be allowed everywhere their owner goes. If a restaurant/store owner does not want to allow a patron's service pygmy goat or monkey into their establishment, they do not have to. However, just because that is the case does not mean it can not lead to a lawsuit or bad publicity. And ANY service animal that is not behaving appropriately...ie is threatening, defecating, etc...can be asked to leave, even if they are a "highest level" animal.
Now, with all that said, there are still protections for owners of the "second level" of service animals and this is the part that is important for all of us. Even those types of animals must be allowed in lodgings (ie hotels) and rentals, with no additional pet fee/deposit.
However, if the animal causes damage to the rental unit, the owner is responsible for that damage just like anything else.
Curiosity question, I live in an urban environment that does not allow people to own livestock. But if an applicant came to me with a legitimate service animal that is considered livestock, like a pig or a goat, would their need for that service animal trump city laws? It definitely gets very sticky, doesn't it!
Personally, and this may not be the most PC thing to say, but I wish their could just be a blanket and legal standard in our country that...if person needs a service animal of any kind...it needs to be a dog, cat, or miniature horse. Because, if someone needs a service animal for anxiety, PTSD, emotional support, etc...and I'm not knocking that...than it seems like they can receive that same type of service from a dog or a cat. I'd even be fine with "grandfathering" in weirdo animals that are already service animals. But what I am not cool with is someone with anxiety issues deciding they need a service animal...and then PURPOSELY picking something bizarre like a monkey or a goat. I mean, if you already have anxiety so severe you need a service animal, than why are you borrowing trouble by choosing an animal that makes it more likely you will receive pushback about it? Just get a dog. Dogs are already the best species on our planet to pick up human social cues, which is yet another reason they can make fantastic emotional support animals.
As for a pit or any other animal/dog I might be considered about, I would include in my lease that the lessee is entirely responsible for any damage their animal causes to another person, another animal, or property. And they are also responsible to pay, whether justified or not, any fines the city levies on their animal (such as in a case where the city does not allow pits or livestock). That's their problem to go fight City Hall, not mine. I realize any clauses like that would not necessarily exonerate me from liability, but it would at least give the lessee something else to think about and they might just go wander to easier pastures.
Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:
Prospective applicants that 'dictate' to me what I have to take pet-wise never seem to get their applications turned in completed correctly or in time before someone else submits theirs. Really weird, right?!
Kind of like so many people of color and gay people until recently? [ though still an issue, not nearly as prevalent nowadays] The word that popped into my head was NOT weird.
I was told (by a Fair Housing Administration speaker) the landlord has to accept the animal unless it caused an unreasonable burden for the landlord to accept it. Having both the HOA and the insurance not allow it would be an unreasonable burden.
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:
It would be interesting to know if the service animal goes to work with its owner , or to school with the son . I would think such an animal would be a constant companion . So it would never be at the rental alone or allowed to run and always on a leash . I also believe in Santa Claus .
And WHY would you assume this? Some emotional support animals are with their person at all times, others are not. Why would it NEVER be at the rental alone? Who are you to say that if a person needs a service animal they always need it every second?[if they have sex in their bedroom without their animal in the room, in the bed in fact, with them, are they not disabled enough for you?]
Also, I doubt that Santa Claus believes in you.
Originally posted by @Wilson Churchill:
I would simply allow them to apply, but not call them back, or explain that another qualified applicant applied first, so you went with them to be fair.
Except...lying in order to discriminate is NOT fair.
Originally posted by @Marcia Maynard:
During our tenant screening, I give a very specific answer when a prospect tells me they have a service animal (or emotional support animal or other another label). That is "We welcome qualified service animals for people with qualified disabilities." Then I proceed with the interview and qualification process. If the person applies and we are at a point of doing background checks, we will then do our due diligence for determining if it is a valid request or not.
Pit bulls are not the only breeds that HOAs and Insurance Companies ban. German Shepherds are often on those lists too, but some can be trained to be great service animals.
We have a determination process and some hoops for the the tenant to go through to demonstrate they have a qualified disability and the need for this specific animal is legit. My background as an ADA compliance manager for a major medical center affords me of knowledge that scares off the fakers and relieves those tenants that do have a qualified disability and the need for a service animal.
The Federal Fair Housing Act is the most significant law that comes into play for housing providers. Each state also has their own take on this topic. Here's an example from Washington State.
Straight from the Washington State Human Rights Commission website:
"Q. How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?......
There are no legal requirements for service animals to be specially identified. Some, but not all, service animals, wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or “certified” and/or have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. A public entity cannot require any proof of a person’s disability, or identification or certification of the service animal’s status.
A housing provider may ask for a health care professional’s statement that an individual is a person with a disability and will be assisted by a service animal. A housing provider may not ask for details or the nature of an individual’s disability."
I think that having a disabled person "jump through hoops" is illegal. Even if not, [it is] it is straight MEAN to put a disabled person through this.
Pit bull dogs are generaly gentle by nature, unless trained to be otherwise.
i would have no problem at all with renting to them,
given that i have net the dog personally, like all my other tenents.
@Vicki Gleitz nobody on here is saying they want to make people jump through hoops but, the sad reality is, people abuse laws. These laws that were meant to aid disabled people are being completely abused by owners of discriminated breeds. I would love to be able to take everyone at their word and not to make them prove everything but, I can't. Nobody can. So this means that there has to be some sort of way to determine if the person you are speaking to is someone who really needs the assistance or, just wants to be abel to own a pitbull. It is not "mean" to make people live up to qualifications or to require they go through the steps to ensure that they are really needing the assistance.
On top of that, people who have REAL service dogs will already have all of the required paperwork because they will have had to do all of this before. so the only real inconvenience is to the fakers that just want to skirt the rules.
Just my thoughts
#2 Contractors Contributor
- Severna Park, MD
Originally posted by @Vicki Gleitz:
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:
It would be interesting to know if the service animal goes to work with its owner , or to school with the son . I would think such an animal would be a constant companion . So it would never be at the rental alone or allowed to run and always on a leash . I also believe in Santa Claus .
And WHY would you assume this? Some emotional support animals are with their person at all times, others are not. Why would it NEVER be at the rental alone? Who are you to say that if a person needs a service animal they always need it every second?[if they have sex in their bedroom without their animal in the room, in the bed in fact, with them, are they not disabled enough for you?]
Also, I doubt that Santa Claus believes in you.
Where in my post do you see the phrase "emotional support animal" I believe the discussion was about a service animal . I believe there is a difference . And what does a tenants sex life have to do with the discussion? Matthew Paul AKA "The grinch"
We just completed a federal HUD and state of Colorado discrimination lawsuit because because we denied a tenant a pit bull as a service animal (even though the city of Denver does not allow pit bulls in city limits at all). We ended up paying off the tenant several thousand dollars to make it go away, so proceed with caution!
The position of HUD is that you can NOT discriminate against the animal breed when it comes to service animals.
It was looking like we were going to be the test case for the city of Denver vs HUD so we paid out so that I can sleep better at night again.
Money well spent!
Originally posted by @Mike Flowers:
@Vicki Gleitz nobody on here is saying they want to make people jump through hoops but, the sad reality is, people abuse laws. These laws that were meant to aid disabled people are being completely abused by owners of discriminated breeds. I would love to be able to take everyone at their word and not to make them prove everything but, I can't. Nobody can. So this means that there has to be some sort of way to determine if the person you are speaking to is someone who really needs the assistance or, just wants to be abel to own a pitbull. It is not "mean" to make people live up to qualifications or to require they go through the steps to ensure that they are really needing the assistance.
On top of that, people who have REAL service dogs will already have all of the required paperwork because they will have had to do all of this before. so the only real inconvenience is to the fakers that just want to skirt the rules.
Just my thoughts
Marcia wrote "We have a determination process and SOME HOOPS for the tenant to go through to demonstrate they have a qualified disability" Ableists attitudes really anger me, though I suppose I should be used to NTs'[neurotypicals] seeing only what they wish to even when it is right in front of their faces.
You need "some way" to determine what is truthful and what is not. I have an emotional support animal. As many with emotional support animals are, I am Autistic. Though some Autistic people are capable of lying [and that is supposed to be a positive, right] it's not nearly as common as it is in the non-Autistic world. But, my people are so often accused of it.[ because we do not look you in the eye? how crazy is that] That, I believe is just ONE of the ways Autistics are discriminated against that cause suicide to be the number ONE cause of death amongst our young [under fifty. I'm an old broad] people.
Service dog, or emotional support animal, there is not a ton of upfront paperwork that would allow you to ferrett out the liars. Really. The frauds are the ones you will most likely trust. People with neurological differences, you think you can figure them out because they are differrent. And you can choose to believe that different means bad, or dirty or less than if that makes you feel better, but that won't make your determinations right. And it sure won't make you get taken advantage of less often.
I would like to continue with my thoughts, because maybe, just maybe I can teach you something valuable. I am close to Autistic meltdown at this point, though, so I am going to post, take 10 minutes, and then resume.
I'm the original poster on this thread and not only do I normally discriminate against pitbulls (and other large "vicious" breeds) I am also the father of a 7 year old son who was diagnosed with severe autism at the age of two and half. He is now considered recovered from autism, the diagnosis has been removed but we're still working through other issues in getting him caught up so to speak. It's been a very long and expensive journey undoing the damage done to him. Retirement savings drained, college savings put on hold, skipped family vacations, 9 and 12 year old vehicles in the garage. Hence my drive to amass and protect a large real estate portfolio so I can secure my family's future.
That said, I have no plans on ever discriminating against someone with Autism. I currently have a tenant that I rented to BECAUSE her son has Autism. I also have a great older tenant with Cerebral Palsy that I rented to partly BECAUSE of his disability. I take pride in helping people improve their living situation.
I still have not received an app from this caller and really don't expect to. With all the breeds available to be used as a "service" animal and she did use the term "service" on the call, I see no reason why someone with a legitimate need would make their life harder by choosing a breed that most landlords pass on.
If the dog was a lab, I wouldn't have created this thread. As long as they were the 1st tenants that met my criteria I would approve them.
Actually Brandon, my issues are not with you, but with those who made the comments about making people prove their "invisible" disabilities and those who mentioned "finding a reason" to exclude disabled people.
I am happy that your son is doing well. I am sure that is mostly attributable to your wifes [and your] actions. I do not consider being Autistic an illness. I believe it is a different neurology that is much more sensitive to the toxins in the environment [ causing most of the many co-morbidities that so often accompany it] Though we might agree to disagree on whether autism could or should be cured, we can both agree that you and your wife are doing wonderful things that will help assure your son has a wonderful life.I have the greatest respect for parents like you.
I am going to post this, and then come back to finish with what I wanted to say.
Originally posted by @Lynn McGeein:
@David Krulac I had an HOA board once deny my tenant a request for a wheelchair ramp even though she submitted doctor's notes about her disability as they said it didn't conform to their HOA rules. That was a fun hearing. A service dog is not considered a pet and should not be judged under the same criteria as a pet. Even a no pet policy must consider a service pet. Hopefully, they have good lawyers to back them up on that judgment as if an applicant sues, it is likely to be by suing everyone involved -- homeowner, HOA, etc.
Associations have to make reasonable accommodations, not modifications. That's an important distinction. A lot is also dependent on what her condition was and whether a claim could be made that the correct accommodations were made without permanently modifying the building. After all, she was aware of access to the building before moving in.
ETA: Sorry for jumping off topic, that will be my last post on the matter.
Originally posted by @Vicki Gleitz:
Actually Brandon, my issues are not with you, but with those who made the comments about making people prove their "invisible" disabilities and those who mentioned "finding a reason" to exclude disabled people.
I am happy that your son is doing well. I am sure that is mostly attributable to your wifes [and your] actions. I do not consider being Autistic an illness. I believe it is a different neurology that is much more sensitive to the toxins in the environment [ causing most of the many co-morbidities that so often accompany it] Though we might agree to disagree on whether autism could or should be cured, we can both agree that you and your wife are doing wonderful things that will help assure your son has a wonderful life.I have the greatest respect for parents like you.
I am going to post this, and then come back to finish with what I wanted to say.
As someone who has no dog in this fight (see what I did there?), I don't believe people were trying to discriminate against those with disabilities. I think the responses were creatively denying certain breeds of dog and one person who wanted to confirm that a tenant claiming disability actually had it, since there are, unfortunately, many people who try to take advantage of a situation like this. I don't believe anyone posted their intent to discriminate against those with disabilities though.
On a personal note, I love pits. My dog sleeps in bed with me, though that little sucker always finds his way over to my side of the bed. Greedy little munchkin I tell you.
I do not think some of you are aware of your level of discrimination. I am not talking pit bulls. The conversation veered way off of the original posters question. [ which I will continue with]
Here is my story [and I can provide documentation for all I say] As a kid I had no idea why I could not fit in, why I could not speak for nearly 8 years, why people hurt me, rape me and tell me no one would believe me [ no one I told did] but I grew up.
Because as a young woman I had the body that people now pay plastic surgeons for [ they didnt back then] and was cute, and that was enough back then, I was able to marry and have kids and be happy. After first husband passed, I met another wonderful man. Life was good.
My youngest son became ill [not from his autism] and suffered extreme neurological pain. For years he begged me, "Mommy, if you love me, help me die." At this point, I had been diagnosed with autism, but I could "pass."
We were members of a nudist club.[clothes HURT] People were supportive of my son, and admired my husband and myself for how we dealt with the situation.
We had spent years and hundreds of thousands of dollars to try to help my son. We spent ALL of our money to help our son. In a 3 month period of time [1] I came out of the closet with being Autistics [2] we bought and moved into a travel trailer because we had spent all of our money, and I was naive enough to tell everyone that we were now poor but so blessed and did not care because we now lived near our wonderful friends in the mountains [3] I was diagnosed with breast cancer and had a double mastectomy [4] swiftly bloated up 30 pounds, developed lizard skin, hair loss and was no longer cute and young looking for my age [5] meds made me cry over anything and seemed to suck out all my brain cells [chemo brain is real]
But this was all okay, because I had the support of all of my wonderful friends, right? If ONLY lack of support had been the only problem. Someone I love started a rumor that I was faking cancer [ can provide documentation to anyone that I am not faking, no problem] and people, my FRIENDS chose to believe it. Friends who had been there at the hospital during my mastectomy chose to believe it. Friends who had seen my scarred chest CHOSE to believe the lies, including one person who had helped me drain and measure my tubes.And when people start beliving such a horrible lie about a person, other lies pile up.
Suicide is the leading cause of death among most "high functioning" Autistic age groups [maybe all] but I had NEVER felt suicidal in my entire life, not until then. And I swore to do my best to keep my Autistic brothers and sisters from such feelings of utter hopelesness.
The people who did this were all nice people. Really. [that made it hurt worse] I know that non-Autistics find Autistics strange. Can't be any stranger than we find them. None of these people would ever discriminate, except, they did. And in typical non- Autistic thinking, they developed a crazy mob mentality. [ it got so much worse]
I am very sensitive about all of this. I am getting treatment for PTSD. If I am being too sensitive, I apologize. But...my good friends that I was sure would be there for me were wonderful people who would never discriminate. But...they did. And some comments on this thread, sure seem like excuses for discrimination and judgement. I have read other threads where different groups seemed to be viewed as "less than," but this one, it was the straw.
Because of my neurology, I do [well, did] maybe go too far in trusting other people, and need to work on that. But, maybe those with NT neurology need to work on trusting more.
Here's a thread worth reading, one in which the OP even posted:
It seems it is possible to get homeowner's insurance without breed exclusions. I imagine it is more costly. There apparently are also canine liability policies. Would requiring a canine liability policy be an undue requirement for a service/emotional support animal?
As far as the non-dog animals, does the landlord have significant liability if the animal is not allowed due to HOA/local regulations? Wouldn't any issue be between the tenant and the HOA or local government? If the tenant needs an exception, shouldn't getting the exception be on the tenant vs. the landlord.
Originally posted by @Jesse T.:
It seems it is possible to get homeowner's insurance without breed exclusions. I imagine it is more costly. There apparently are also canine liability policies. Would requiring a canine liability policy be an undue requirement for a service/emotional support animal?
As far as the non-dog animals, does the landlord have significant liability if the animal is not allowed due to HOA/local regulations? Wouldn't any issue be between the tenant and the HOA or local government? If the tenant needs an exception, shouldn't getting the exception be on the tenant vs. the landlord.
I have looked into obtaining homeowner's insurance without breed exclusions and had no luck, at least in NC where I was looking. I also contacted several of the canine liability insurance people, and the ones who got back to me said that they don't write them in my state, and gave me references, which, when I checked, also said they didn't offer them there. So finding that type of insurance is hard. I have friends that participate in pit bull rescue (homeowners, not renters), and I understand the problems they face, but I also have researched why insurance companies have breed restrictions, and the liability risk seems real enough for concern.
If they had the proper doctor's note and if my insurance company allowed the exception for service animal, I would, of course, comply. Otherwise, I would obtain legal counsel to see if I could require them to provide a liability policy listing me as additional insured before complying, as I think that is a fair compromise that alleviates my burden caused by their choice of breed. I recently had a potential applicant that wanted to rent with a mixed-breed pit bull, and my insurance said not even a mix containing one of their restricted breeds is allowed. It made me think of what I would do if they said it was a service animal.
Also, wanted to point out that with HOAs, my understanding is that the owner is the one liable for any violations, and boards don't like dealing with tenants. For instance, I had to submit the request for the tenant's wheelchair ramp and also defend it at the hearing when they denied it. Ours were just townhome-style units within an HOA, so it was bizarre that they would deny a wheelchair ramp out her own front door when she was the only one using it on the owner part of the grounds, not the common areas, with a doctor's note. It appeared as if the board members were not aware of the regulations, and those are not nearly as confusing as service animal rules.
Originally posted by @Lynn McGeein:
Also, wanted to point out that with HOAs, my understanding is that the owner is the one liable for any violations, and boards don't like dealing with tenants. For instance, I had to submit the request for the tenant's wheelchair ramp and also defend it at the hearing when they denied it. Ours were just townhome-style units within an HOA, so it was bizarre that they would deny a wheelchair ramp out her own front door when she was the only one using it on the owner part of the grounds, not the common areas, with a doctor's note. It appeared as if the board members were not aware of the regulations, and those are not nearly as confusing as service animal rules.
I don't think an insurance company can dictate the breed of a service animal. I would think the wording would be no pit bull PETS. If your HOA refused the reasonable accommodation THEY could be sued. The person in my building settled with the landlord, our on site manager and our managing company. All three had to cough up a total of $50,000.
I need to comment on this. Not sure how old this thread is. However, I am a school teacher full time and an animal behaviorist. I have a MS in applied behavior. The term "pit bull" is not a breed. Most people think they own a pit bull because it's a mix or has a boxy head and the structure is similar. The Pit Bull however, is a very good candidate for service dogs. Service dogs have to be verified and certified. If a tenant has a service animal and is referring to that animal as a "pit bull" then she or they should have a DNA test done at a cost of 69 dollars and carry it with her. For discrimination reasons. Any service animal should by law have a CDC. Cert. which is a Canine Good Citizen Cert. if they have that then the dog is trained and a true service animal. Without me sounding discriminatory, it's the type of people owning the particular dog. I myself own 130 lb mastiff who's bite pressure is almost over 1000 lbs of pressure the mastiff is the most protective breed to own. Pit bull type dogs are not by nature protective . However they have high prey drive as most terrier breeds. They are 90 percent more likely to to harm another animal before a human. There is a service dog school that only reacues pit bull type dogs and trains them to be service animals. These dogs are free with a prescription from a doctor . They do very well with children be very careful with denying a breed with a cert. big law suit
The only time you can discriminate against the breed of a service dog is if you can provide proof that the breed will cause an undue burden like a substantial rise in insurance. Here is a link the HUD memo on this topic.
http://servicedogcentral.org/content/files/2006-06...
But keep in mind....just because you are technically right, does not mean you will not be subject to a lawsuit in which you need to spend money to defend yourself. Also from a practical point of view...a "pitbull" who is a service dog, is going to be 1,000 times better behaved than any breed that is not a service dog. Save yourself the stress and the possibility of the lawsuit and just accept the service dog.
- Russell Brazil
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Here is the best way to think of a service animal, if you want to keep out of trouble:
Not only is a service animal not a "pet", but it is not even an animal. It is a piece of medical equipment.
Don't be looking to pet clauses in your lease, or condo association bans on animals of certain sizes, or insurance company limitations on animals.
The service animal is not, for the purposes of this sort of discussion, an animal. It is a piece of equipment necessary for the health of the prospective tenant.
Does that mean they must always be allowed? Not under the ADA, no. The reasonable accommodation language several posters have mentioned is real. But try thinking of the service animal in the same way as you might think of a wheelchair. And if you don't think you could get away with banning that wheelchair, then don't trying banning the service animal.
Will people abuse this? Yep, they sure will. Will they win regardless? Yep, they sure will. Does this mean that within a few years, pet restrictions will essentially disappear from leases, because there will be this loophole that makes them effectively unenforceable? In my opinion, yes.
Prepare to deal with this new world.
Originally posted by @Joel Owens:
Find something else in the app for turn down.
Testiness