Egress windows - Absolute requirement?

Egress windows - Absolute requirement?

Investor · Kent, WA · Member since 2020 · 41 posts · 28 votes

Hey All, I've got a duplex where we've got a full height basement that we'd like to add two bedrooms and a bathroom to. The basements (one on each side) do have windows currently, but they wouldn't qualify for egress windows for bedrooms due to their height off the floor. Excavation and cutting into the foundation wall would not be cheap for the egress windows and we're up against it on the budget. 

I'm not expecting this to be much of a cash out refi potential on this property so my main goal is to increase cashflow as much as possible. I'd like to use the basement as additional bedrooms and could still add the bathroom since there is existing plumbing already, but the expense of egress windows and getting someone to do it in a timely manner is damn near impossible. I could easily frame the walls up and add closets, electrical outlets and HVAC ducts. I see people using basement rooms as bedrooms that don't legally qualify all the time, so I'm wondering what the concerns/liabilities are? As a landlord, you wouldn't tell someone that they can't set up a bed and have a member of the family sleep in the basement, so does this create any liability for the property owner? Could I list it as a 4 bed duplex legally? Illegally? Any concern there? Cashflow as a 4/2 on each side would be so much stronger than as 2/1's but not enough to justify the expense to do it all above board. Open to any and all feedback, please!

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Investor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 731 votes
4y

@Jake Boyer, there's definitely risk in doing so.  And the landlord will burden that risk.

Talk to the city engineering department, or look up the codes online to see what the minimum egress codes require.

I think there's a huge liability difference tenants making the basement an additional room vs. the landlord advertising it as additional room.

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  • Investor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 731 votes
    4y

    @Jake Boyer, there's definitely risk in doing so.  And the landlord will burden that risk.

    Talk to the city engineering department, or look up the codes online to see what the minimum egress codes require.

    I think there's a huge liability difference tenants making the basement an additional room vs. the landlord advertising it as additional room.

  • Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
    4y

    You definitely need an egress for a basement sleeping area. You'd need to check codes in your area but I believe you are suppose to have an egress window in each bedroom in case of fire. Plus depending on your area possibly a radon test to make sure the basement free from radon.

    Even if you never had a fire there, you could have issues with the city or a tenant could use it as leverage to report you for an illegal bedroom if you had issues with them. And you never know if you might have bad luck and need to get a permit for something and then city codes is out and notices non-permitted bedrooms in the basement. And god forbid there is a fire and someone got hurt you'd be getting sued and could loose everything.

    I wouldn't add  basement bedrooms unless you can make it safe & legal for the people living there. It's not worth the risk. Maybe just refinish the basement & make it a bonus room for a little extra rent & when you have the money to add the egress windows then come back and turn it into a couple extra bedrooms. 

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Jake Boyer:

    Hey All, I've got a duplex where we've got a full height basement that we'd like to add two bedrooms and a bathroom to. The basements (one on each side) do have windows currently, but they wouldn't qualify for egress windows for bedrooms due to their height off the floor. Excavation and cutting into the foundation wall would not be cheap for the egress windows and we're up against it on the budget. 

    I'm not expecting this to be much of a cash out refi potential on this property so my main goal is to increase cashflow as much as possible. I'd like to use the basement as additional bedrooms and could still add the bathroom since there is existing plumbing already, but the expense of egress windows and getting someone to do it in a timely manner is damn near impossible. I could easily frame the walls up and add closets, electrical outlets and HVAC ducts. I see people using basement rooms as bedrooms that don't legally qualify all the time, so I'm wondering what the concerns/liabilities are? As a landlord, you wouldn't tell someone that they can't set up a bed and have a member of the family sleep in the basement, so does this create any liability for the property owner? Could I list it as a 4 bed duplex legally? Illegally? Any concern there? Cashflow as a 4/2 on each side would be so much stronger than as 2/1's but not enough to justify the expense to do it all above board. Open to any and all feedback, please!

    People do a lot of things all the time. That doesn't mean it's legal.

    Every sleeping area should have two exists. Yours would include the door and the window. If the window is not a legal egress, but it's large enough for someone to get out easily and it's not too far off the floor, then I'll rent it as a bedroom.  For example, a kid or adult could climb to the window using a bed or dresser and the window is large enough (20" x 24") for them to crawl through easily.

    When I have homes like yours, I count the basements as "bonus rooms" and tell the renters we can't advertise it as a sleeping area because of the liability. They rent it, and then they can decide where people sleep. It's none of my business if they want to use those as bedrooms. Heck, they can have kids sleeping in the hall and there's nothing I can do about it as long as they meet occupancy requirements.

    In the long run, you want to save up the money and get egress windows installed. It helps with rentals and it with resale.
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  • Investor · Kent, WA · Member since 2020 · 41 posts · 28 votes
    4y

    Thank you all for the feedback... Most of it was appropriate and helpful... I guess I should have asked the initial question a little different to start, more along the lines of what you said @Nathan Gesner 
    If I have non conforming bedrooms due to lack of egress windows in the basement, and clearly articulate that these are not legal bedrooms to the tenants, what liability concerns do I have if they decide to use that space as a bedroom? As you noted, tenants can set their kids bedroom in the hallway if they want to after they've moved in as long as they aren't violating the occupancy number or other laws. 


    I like the idea of classifying it as a "Bonus room" and leaving it up to the tenant's how they want to use it. I certainly don't want to create any hazards for my tenants and would NEVER want to mislead anyone, just want to make sure I'm maximizing the space and I'm curious if there needs to be any precautionary language in the lease and/or listing to make sure I'm covered from a liability stand point? 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    I spent a lot of time as a builder and as an inspector. Do not even think about letting someone use these rooms as bedrooms...as was said, there doesn't even have to be a fire for you to get screwed.

    And even though it's correct that you can't control where your tenants sleep, we all know how it is today in our nanny-state, over litigious society. Lets just say that you don't call these bedrooms, but your tenants use them as such anyway. A fire starts and a little kid is killed. Do you really think that both the tenants and the city are not coming after you for having rooms that you pretty much knew could, or were going to be, used as bedrooms? I can hear the prosecutor now......

    Not even worth the risk. Do the windows.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2022 · 20 posts · 13 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Jake Boyer:

    Hey All, I've got a duplex where we've got a full height basement that we'd like to add two bedrooms and a bathroom to. The basements (one on each side) do have windows currently, but they wouldn't qualify for egress windows for bedrooms due to their height off the floor. Excavation and cutting into the foundation wall would not be cheap for the egress windows and we're up against it on the budget. 

    I'm not expecting this to be much of a cash out refi potential on this property so my main goal is to increase cashflow as much as possible. I'd like to use the basement as additional bedrooms and could still add the bathroom since there is existing plumbing already, but the expense of egress windows and getting someone to do it in a timely manner is damn near impossible. I could easily frame the walls up and add closets, electrical outlets and HVAC ducts. I see people using basement rooms as bedrooms that don't legally qualify all the time, so I'm wondering what the concerns/liabilities are? As a landlord, you wouldn't tell someone that they can't set up a bed and have a member of the family sleep in the basement, so does this create any liability for the property owner? Could I list it as a 4 bed duplex legally? Illegally? Any concern there? Cashflow as a 4/2 on each side would be so much stronger than as 2/1's but not enough to justify the expense to do it all above board. Open to any and all feedback, please!


     I'm in a similar situation, duplex with bonus rooms downstairs.  Curious if you got estimates on adding an egress window and how much that would cost per window?

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Spencer Smith:

    Too many variables....what are the walls made of? Wood or block? How thick?

    If you figure $1500-$2000 per window you might be close, assuming $500 window cost. There is reframing to add a header, exterior siding repair, interior drywall, trim and paint.....

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