Fraud with our Birmingham turnkey property

Fraud with our Birmingham turnkey property

Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 128 posts · 87 votes

In March 2015, we worked through Maverick Investor Group to purchase a property in Birmingham, Alabama. The Seller was Birmingham Income Properties - owned by Brad Lewis and Bryan Conwill. Property Management would be done by their other company, Arbor Trace Real Estate.

There were many difficulties during the rehab and purchase process. Most importantly, about two months after closing on the purchase, we discovered there was not a tenant in the property.

According to our contract, the house would be fully rehabbed with new plumbing, electrical and appliances and have a tenant in place before closing. We were also promised a paying tenant in the house at closing; a specific rental amount; a specific cap rate; and told that if the rental rate was not met, the sales price for the house would be lowered to maintain the cap rate. All of these stipulations were promised jointly by Mr. Lewis and Maverick during a webinar in March.

Problems started during the rehab process. Timelines kept getting missed. The Seller claimed work was done that wasn’t and frequently lied about issues. Fortunately we hired an independent inspector who helped us hold them accountable for doing the promised work. The inspector pointed out an old water heater that the Seller claimed was new, among many other issues. We often discussed these issues with Maverick; their response was to praise our due diligence and repeat the promises we had been given.

The Seller told us a tenant was lined up, but at a lower rental rate than promised. We mentioned up the rent guarantee. The Seller refused to lower the sales price, and eventually told us the tenant had agreed to the original rent amount. Shortly before closing the Seller sent us a copy of a signed lease. We closed on the purchase in July, and hired Arbor Trace for property management.

Almost two months passed and we did not receive any rent or owner’s statements. We contacted Arbor Trace to ask about the situation; we discovered the companies were collapsing in dramatic fashion. One staff member told us the house we had bought was not occupied. We called the electric company and verified that there was no power at the house. The lease we had been shown in order to get us to close at the agreed price was a fraudulent lease!

At that point, we reached out to another PM group in Birmingham. They helped us secure the house (which was empty) and get the lawn cut (there was a city citation on the door about the overgrown lawn).

We are not convinced that this drama is over yet. But so far, we have:

  • Bought a house that will cash flow for $200 less a month than promised
  • Dealt with a fraudulent lease
  • Had to find a new PM company
  • Had to spend at least $1000 to get the house rent ready
  • Paid a $500 bill to the electrical company to cover an unpaid bill
  • Been sent one check by the Seller to cover some costs – the check bounced (twice)
  • Received no substantive support from Maverick – they completely failed on their due diligence

Knowing how BP folks feel about turnkey properties in general, I want to say that we are not against the approach – we are in the process of closing two other turnkey properties with two different companies.

Our warning – stay away from the groups and people mentioned here and always do your due diligence!

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Investor · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
Thanks for sharing. My biggest issue with TK is that it never made sense to me. Your goals are not aligned. I always figured that if a TK provider could deliver what they claimed to offer consistently and over a long period of time... they would either keep them or have huge corporate buyers gobbling up as many properties as they could deliver. The fact that they constantly have to hunt for small time buyers is one of many red flags for me. I don't understand why somebody would do all of the legwork to secure properties below market, fund and manage a rehab, lease up and then hand over a great cash flowing property to a stranger while retaining the management headache. That is all the heaving lifting. It is like running the first 26 miles of a marathon then handing the bib off to somebody else that gets to sprint across the finish line to kiss your wife and hug your kids. None of it makes sense unless their one time rip and ongoing management fees are a better deal than the true monthly cash flow. When I go into any type of business arrangement or partnership I try to make sure our business interests and goals are 100% aligned. With TK investing, it simply can't be. More repairs and management fees from turnover equals more money for the TK provider and less money for the investor. Every extra penny they spend over engineering a rehab to avoid future maintenance issues is coming off their bottom line. Then they have no skin in the game if the property underperforms. It's like a perfect recipe to get screwed over. If you want relatively hassle free out of state investing, a commercial syndication deal makes much more sense to me.
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  • China, ME · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    You didn't mention whether the promises made were in writing.

    If they were, it seems to me that a lawsuit is in order - one with the intent of driving an equitable settlement from the seller and TK company, rather than going through the lengthy and expensive court process.

    I'd be prepared to find that both parties have protected their assets via LLC / S-Corp or something similar, but my understanding is that fraud can pierce the corporate veil. If you can prove it, their assets may be open to you for attachment.

    Another option, depending on your jurisdiction's limits, may be small claims court.

    However, if those promises were NOT in writing, it seems to me that you're hosed.

    I think the first step is to talk with a qualified attorney.

  • Lynnwood, WA · Member since 2015 · 221 posts · 157 votes
    10y

    @Ann Howell

    Thank you for shining your bright light on these folks - it's the only thing that keeps them at bay. It's not easy to author stories like this. Much applause for your selfless post. Best of luck in the future. 

  • Investor · Frisco, TX · Member since 2015 · 84 posts · 52 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Greg H.:

    I am assuming that you did not have your own agent and relied on their broker to assist with the transaction ?

    I would pursue a complaint through the Alabama Real Estate Commission. This will not cost you any money out of pocket and is probably your only way to get any justice as most of these types of companies have already abandoned the old LLC or Corp and moved on to a new name

     A big thanks @Ann Howell for posting all the details on her failed TK transaction.   All to often we talk about our successes and not our failure.  Both success and failure bring knowledge and when applied correctly, wisdom.

    I too experienced fraud with Bradley Lewis and Arbor Trace.  In my case, the rehab and purchase process was slow, but we did get to closing at the end of July.  Before closing, I had the home inspector do a followup on the completed work AND verify the tenant was actually living in the house.  

    After closing is when the communication stopped and I didn't get my rent check for August from Arbor Trace and I found that the whole partnership was in turmoil. By late September, I moved my property to The Decas group and worked with @Jarrod Cook as my contact.  Jarrod has been great to work with. Thru this whole process, I continued to have a good conversation with Bryan Conwill who did the rehab.  At the end of September, Bryan was able to collect the September rent from the tenat and and sent me a check for the whole rent amount including a late fee and with no PM fee.  Since Bryan knew I was moving to Decas he could have walked away, but he did the right thing and got me my September rent.  So at this time, I have a good PM, Decas, and paying tenat. 

    However, I am still owed my August rent from Bradley Lewis and his new PM group called Elite Property Group.  David Hayes of Elite Property Group sent me letter to sign that would allow them to release the August rent.  I signed and returned the letter, but they refused to send me my funds.  In the end, I am out my renter's deposit and one month of rent.

    I have been in contact with Ann and other investors who were impacted by Maverick and Arbor Trace.  I am collecting names connecting us together to see if we can take common course of action to recover funds.

    If you were impacted by Arbor Trace, contact me and I will add you to the group.  

    If you know a good legal counsel in Birmingham, let me know

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 128 posts · 87 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Joe Bertolino:

    Thanks for sharing. My biggest issue with TK is that it never made sense to me. Your goals are not aligned. I always figured that if a TK provider could deliver what they claimed to offer consistently and over a long period of time... they would either keep them or have huge corporate buyers gobbling up as many properties as they could deliver. The fact that they constantly have to hunt for small time buyers is one of many red flags for me.

    I don't understand why somebody would do all of the legwork to secure properties below market, fund and manage a rehab, lease up and then hand over a great cash flowing property to a stranger while retaining the management headache. That is all the heaving lifting. It is like running the first 26 miles of a marathon then handing the bib off to somebody else that gets to sprint across the finish line to kiss your wife and hug your kids. None of it makes sense unless their one time rip and ongoing management fees are a better deal than the true monthly cash flow. When I go into any type of business arrangement or partnership I try to make sure our business interests and goals are 100% aligned. With TK investing, it simply can't be. More repairs and management fees from turnover equals more money for the TK provider and less money for the investor. Every extra penny they spend over engineering a rehab to avoid future maintenance issues is coming off their bottom line. Then they have no skin in the game if the property underperforms. It's like a perfect recipe to get screwed over. If you want relatively hassle free out of state investing, a commercial syndication deal makes much more sense to me.

     I can see why turnkey does not work well for many of the hard core RE investors here on BP. We won't get the same kind of great deals and returns that many of you achieve.  But it works for us right now.  I work an intense corporate job, have kids at home and have ailing parents.  I have money but not time.  I realize that I pay a premium for the properties - that is how the turnkey company makes money - but as long as the property meets our financial expectations, I am okay with that. Over time, we are likely to start doing more on our own.

  • Spencer SuttonBusiness Member
    Investor · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2015 · 119 posts · 148 votes
    10y

    Sorry to hear this @Ann Howell 

    They've been doing this for years under different entity names.

    I know that Birmingham is a very popular place for people interested in Turnkey.  My advice would be to do two things:

    1. Come to Birmingham and see the investment before it's purchased...that way you know the streets and better understand the area and neighborhood you're buying in.  There are several area where I would never buy a rental house...unfortunately, it's easy to buy a cheap house there and sell it to out of state investors as a turnkey deal when in all reality it's a piece of junk that will end up costing the investor thousands.

    2. Visit with several property manager in the city.  There are enough groups here that are honest and will shoot you straight about the people you're thinking about working with and the houses you're considering buying.  Asking the right questions can save you big money.

    @Joe Bertolino the reason why it's is popular is simple...turnkey providers can make 20k - 30k per transaction.  I used to buy/sell here in Birmingham but to local investors....out of state investors will pay a lot more than local groups.

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 128 posts · 87 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Doug N.:

    @Ann Howell

    Thank you for shining your bright light on these folks - it's the only thing that keeps them at bay. It's not easy to author stories like this. Much applause for your selfless post. Best of luck in the future. 

     Thanks for your post.  We spent a lot of time with the seller and the broker trying to work this out and we got nowhere. In last last few weeks, we have had multiple BP folks reach out to us who were in the same situation.  It was time to make this public.  I saw a post in the last few days that Maverick is having a Webinar for investors to learn about the Birmingham market.  Not sure if it is the same sellers or not, but others should know this history.

  • Peter MckernanBusiness Member
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Irvine, CA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Ann Howell and @Tim Howell

    I'm sorry that you both went through that terrible situation. There are many people that become caught up in the thoughts of riches. It causes them to have convoluted thoughts and motives to obtain those riches. Your bad experience is an very bad example of the extent that people will go to for that money. Good luck and I hope this post helps destroy Maverick.

    The McKernan Group4.957 Reviews
  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 128 posts · 87 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Spencer Sutton:

    Sorry to hear this @Ann Howell 

    They've been doing this for years under different entity names.

    I know that Birmingham is a very popular place for people interested in Turnkey.  My advice would be to do two things:

    1. Come to Birmingham and see the investment before it's purchased...that way you know the streets and better understand the area and neighborhood you're buying in.  There are several area where I would never buy a rental house...unfortunately, it's easy to buy a cheap house there and sell it to out of state investors as a turnkey deal when in all reality it's a piece of junk that will end up costing the investor thousands.

    2. Visit with several property manager in the city.  There are enough groups here that are honest and will shoot you straight about the people you're thinking about working with and the houses you're considering buying.  Asking the right questions can save you big money.

    @Joe Bertolino the reason why it's is popular is simple...turnkey providers can make 20k - 30k per transaction.  I used to buy/sell here in Birmingham but to local investors....out of state investors will pay a lot more than local groups.

     That is great advice.

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 128 posts · 87 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Greg H.:

    I am assuming that you did not have your own agent and relied on their broker to assist with the transaction ?

    I would pursue a complaint through the Alabama Real Estate Commission. This will not cost you any money out of pocket and is probably your only way to get any justice as most of these types of companies have already abandoned the old LLC or Corp and moved on to a new name

     Thanks, Greg.  We will do that. We are planning to file a complaint with the Attorney General, but we did not think about the Real Estate Commission.

  • Brie SchmidtBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    10y

    I am so sorry to hear about this.  It is unfortunate that people operate in this manner and that Maverick did not step in to fix things for you.  

    Thanks for sharing so others can learn from it.

    FYI - My advice for out of state investors who can't make it to the market is to hire a local BP member to attend the inspection.  Get a disinterested third party involved to be your eyes and ears... well worth a few hundred bucks.  

  • Investor · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Joe Bertolino the reason why it's is popular is simple...turnkey providers can make 20k - 30k per transaction.  I used to buy/sell here in Birmingham but to local investors....out of state investors will pay a lot more than local groups.

    I completely understand why it is popular for the TK providers.  That's my point... If they were great long term investments they would prefer to keep them rather than get a one time $20k pop.   Their business model is sound... sell for top dollar to an out of state investor that doesn't know any better,  manage it (more money made on repairs and turnover) and then have the opportunity to resell it a few years down the road when the investor doesn't get the profits that were projected and is ready to pull the plug.    Rinse and repeat.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Laguna Niguel, CA · Member since 2015 · 142 posts · 98 votes
    10y

    I completely understand why it is popular for the TK providers.  That's my point... If they were great long term investments they would prefer to keep them rather than get a one time $20k pop.   Their business model is sound... sell for top dollar to an out of state investor that doesn't know any better,  manage it (more money made on repairs and turnover) and then have the opportunity to resell it a few years down the road when the investor doesn't get the profits that were projected and is ready to pull the plug.    Rinse and repeat. 

    Joe,

    Just because TK companies don't hold on to the properties themselves doesn't mean they arent good investments. Why don't flippers hold on to all their properties? Because they need the cash now to continue growing their business.  Sure, you probably aren't getting a killer deal but that doesn't mean it's not a good investment for someone with little time on their hands.

    The Bham turnkey we are discussing here is a different story of course. I can't even say what I truely think about them. They are disgusting people 

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Monday morning quarterbacking aside, it's always important to remember that no one will treat your own money like you do (or should).

    Your TK company is probably run by a couple of "yo-dudes" who are big on bravado but light in the stones to do what's right. When things started going wrong, they probably panicked and hence the fraudulent behavior. Time and the law will unearth the truth, but that won't get your money back.

    When thing go awry to me, I try to find my 1% in the situation. It's always there. Let's look at your objectively:

    As @Account Closed noted, why would you choose to invest out of state in the first place? What other independent research on the company and its key oersonnel could you have performed prior to your decision? Did you consider using a property manager that's entirely independent and unassociated with these characters? 

    Fraud is fraud; some people will lie to your face, even when the truth sounds better! That's an uncomfortable fact. 

    As others have pointed out, this could face been worse. I personally thing much worse, especially considering a real con would have found a way to suck even more money from you and continued to vacuum your wallet while "unexpected problems" arise in serial fashion.

    As the saying goes, one way or another, you're going to get an education. You have now signed up for "TK Real Estate 201". 

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Commack, NY · Member since 2008 · 353 posts · 33 votes
    10y

    @Ann Howell  I have had a nightmare of a time with my Birmingham investments, due primarily to various property managers and contractors that ranged from bad to outright fraudulent.  My losses from them were tens of thousands when all was said and done.

    One thing I did learn later on was that bouncing a check in and of itself is an offense.  It can be a civil offense or a criminal offense.  It becomes a criminal offense if the check was written with the intent to defraud  on the part of the person writing the check, so you might want to look into that as well.  (In my case, I was sent checks for rent in the mail that turned out to be written on a closed account.  That scammer's name was Prentice Fails of Birmingham, btw!)

    One other lesson I learned is that you have a better chance of getting a lawyer to work on contingency if there is a large group (and hence a large amount of money) involved.

    Great advice going to the Alabama Realtor's Board to file a claim.  If your guys were truly licensed realtors that would probably be your easiest route, as they have insurance or a pot of money allocated to cover things like this, I believe.  (Another scammer I dealt with, Michael Moore of Moore's Property Management, stated he was licensed, and afterward when I went to the Realtor's Board I found out he lied about that too.)

    Arbor Trace was one of the many Birmingham property managers that I contacted to inquire about management.  Once I reviewed their PM contract and found it very one-sided to their advantage, at the disadvantage to the investor, I passed on their "services".

    I wish you the best with all of this, and thanks for posting about it.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ann Howell:
    Originally posted by @Joe Bertolino:

    Thanks for sharing. My biggest issue with TK is that it never made sense to me. Your goals are not aligned. I always figured that if a TK provider could deliver what they claimed to offer consistently and over a long period of time... they would either keep them or have huge corporate buyers gobbling up as many properties as they could deliver. The fact that they constantly have to hunt for small time buyers is one of many red flags for me.

    I don't understand why somebody would do all of the legwork to secure properties below market, fund and manage a rehab, lease up and then hand over a great cash flowing property to a stranger while retaining the management headache. That is all the heaving lifting. It is like running the first 26 miles of a marathon then handing the bib off to somebody else that gets to sprint across the finish line to kiss your wife and hug your kids. None of it makes sense unless their one time rip and ongoing management fees are a better deal than the true monthly cash flow. When I go into any type of business arrangement or partnership I try to make sure our business interests and goals are 100% aligned. With TK investing, it simply can't be. More repairs and management fees from turnover equals more money for the TK provider and less money for the investor. Every extra penny they spend over engineering a rehab to avoid future maintenance issues is coming off their bottom line. Then they have no skin in the game if the property underperforms. It's like a perfect recipe to get screwed over. If you want relatively hassle free out of state investing, a commercial syndication deal makes much more sense to me.

     I can see why turnkey does not work well for many of the hard core RE investors here on BP. We won't get the same kind of great deals and returns that many of you achieve.  But it works for us right now.  I work an intense corporate job, have kids at home and have ailing parents.  I have money but not time.  I realize that I pay a premium for the properties - that is how the turnkey company makes money - but as long as the property meets our financial expectations, I am okay with that. Over time, we are likely to start doing more on our own.

    Ann:  You say TK is what works for you right now.  Do you have any performing TKs?  If not, nothing has yet worked for you.  From this thread I gathered there is one bad deal in Birmingham and you are in escrow to buy two other TKs other providers.  What IS working so far?  

    Do not be fooled by the idea that non TK buyers get stellar discount deals.  The bulk of landlords don't buy discount deals or home runs.  They do the slow steady thing to build a portfolio.  The bulk of long distance landlords don't buy from TK providers.  They buy rent ready property or minimal rehabs and hire a PM.  They often use a buyer's agent to bring them properties per their criteria.  There is a reason that a lot of TKs are coming out of low entry priced markets.  TK providers see the amount of money that new landlords have to place.  They market to and take advantage of new investor's anxiety to get into props asap.  The mark-up is based on that anxiety and fear that the buying and PM of rental property can't be managed by busy people.  

    If you own rental property you're either going to manage the property or manage the PM.  TK has not eliminated the need to manage the PM, as is evidenced by your experience thus far.

    I'd think long and hard before you close on your next property with a TK provider.

  • Registered Nurse (ICU) · San Jose, CA · Member since 2014 · 496 posts · 332 votes
    10y

    @Ann Howell don't be discouraged by these turnkey haters.  Like I mentioned earlier if you find the right people you can make it work.  Everyone invests differently.  Some use turnkey for various reasons and others use a team of there own for various reasons.  We are all unique investors and the right way is the way that works for you.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Spencer Sutton  the best turn key companies in B ham make nowere near what your talking about.. as they have business that is referred to them and don't have to pay a Maverick ( middle man broker ) Fee..  As you know I have been funding a few what I call boutique turn key operators in B Ham for going on 13 years I see the HUDS. Plus I personally owned 34 TK homes that your company managed and we had to move to Decas for cost control reasons. . they make no where near what your claiming.. Now some of the nefarious one's will just like the guys in Detroit or Frayser in Memphis or other areas were they are simply sociopaths in the RE business.. Larry Fried is a agent who sells turn key and works with Maverick or he did when Maverick hooked up with these yahoos when he told me who they were affiliating with in Birmingham I wrote him a PM and told him to watch out if you do a background check on both of those folks you will not like what you find.

    I think that advice was ignored because its all about Maverick and the mark ups .. people must understand that this is no different than any other kind of brokerage its just a company Like Maverick has made it a national business agreegating all these smaller fix and flip for rental folks and reps their product its obvious even with my warning to Larry that they just charged ahead and I knew this would most likely be the outcome @Ann Howell  At the end of the day this is a very small industry. And one reason why @Brie Schmidt Brie and I created turn key reviews as a place were the good providers could standout and be praised by their clients and the bad providers could also have honest reviews like what's happening here..

    It is critical to vette the ground team.. @Ann Howell as you found out the middle man broker like Maverick is just a high powered marketing company they have no direct control or input with the provider except to threaten to dump them because the provider is hurting their rep  like whats happening here.. but that does not help you the damage is already don. ..  Not all of Maverick providers are terrible like this one. AS I fund others in other states that are great. . but its evident that Maverick needs to do a much better due diligence on who they align with and not just take the folks that will pay them the most..  Its frustrating.. And maybe Larry decided he would not rep B ham.. I know he is pretty particular about his credibility and I am sure Maverick probably did not listen to him any way... just frustrating when people like this keep reinventing themselves and creating the same destructive path ...

  • Real Estate Broker · Southeast · Member since 2014 · 175 posts · 63 votes
    10y

    Wow! Lots ideas and opinions being shared in this thread. I'm excited to see how much attention Birmingham is getting from investors nationwide. I think its important to remember that different strategies work for different people. While turnkey may be the answer for investor A, investor B may prefer "rehabbing" and leasing out a home that a buyer's agent helps them locate. Investor A may prefer buying and flipping while investor B prefers to buy and hold... I could go on and on. 

    Birmingham is a great city with many options for turnkey providers and management. Talk to as many people as your time/schedule allows, do your research then invest where and how you feel comfortable. Unfortunately, nothing in life is a sure thing, but doing your homework will help to eliminate as many unknowns as possible.

    Anyone planning a trip to Birmingham please look me up - I'd love to take you to lunch and show you around.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ann Howell:
    Originally posted by @Doug N.:

    @Ann Howell

    Thank you for shining your bright light on these folks - it's the only thing that keeps them at bay. It's not easy to author stories like this. Much applause for your selfless post. Best of luck in the future. 

     Thanks for your post.  We spent a lot of time with the seller and the broker trying to work this out and we got nowhere. In last last few weeks, we have had multiple BP folks reach out to us who were in the same situation.  It was time to make this public.  I saw a post in the last few days that Maverick is having a Webinar for investors to learn about the Birmingham market.  Not sure if it is the same sellers or not, but others should know this history.

     Ann:  I'm having trouble understanding the difference between the TK provider and the seller in your scenario.  Regardless of the entity selling the property or the entity managing the property, do you not hold Maverick 100% responsible?  If they are hooking you up with a deal and stand to profit, they need to stand behind their service and product, regardless who the selling entity is.

    I'm not a TK hater.  There is place for FULL service rental acquisition and PM. However, there are LOTS of amateurs in the TK space right now.  Amateur rehabbers, amateur PM and amateur marketing.  Find a TK provider that's been doing this business model consistently for 10 years.  It's the blind leading the blind in many TK markets.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Spencer Sutton  the best turn key companies in B ham make nowere near what your talking about.. as they have business that is referred to them and don't have to pay a Maverick ( middle man broker ) Fee..  As you know I have been funding a few what I call boutique turn key operators in B Ham for going on 13 years I see the HUDS. Plus I personally owned 34 TK homes that your company managed and we had to move to Decas for cost control reasons. . they make no where near what your claiming.. Now some of the nefarious one's will just like the guys in Detroit or Frayser in Memphis or other areas were they are simply sociopaths in the RE business.. Larry Fried is a agent who sells turn key and works with Maverick or he did when Maverick hooked up with these yahoos when he told me who they were affiliating with in Birmingham I wrote him a PM and told him to watch out if you do a background check on both of those folks you will not like what you find.

    I think that advice was ignored because its all about Maverick and the mark ups .. people must understand that this is no different than any other kind of brokerage its just a company Like Maverick has made it a national business agreegating all these smaller fix and flip for rental folks and reps their product its obvious even with my warning to Larry that they just charged ahead and I knew this would most likely be the outcome @Ann Howell  At the end of the day this is a very small industry. And one reason why @Brie Schmidt Brie and I created turn key reviews as a place were the good providers could standout and be praised by their clients and the bad providers could also have honest reviews like what's happening here..

    It is critical to vette the ground team.. @Ann Howell as you found out the middle man broker like Maverick is just a high powered marketing company they have no direct control or input with the provider except to threaten to dump them because the provider is hurting their rep  like whats happening here.. but that does not help you the damage is already don. ..  Not all of Maverick providers are terrible like this one. AS I fund others in other states that are great. . but its evident that Maverick needs to do a much better due diligence on who they align with and not just take the folks that will pay them the most..  Its frustrating.. And maybe Larry decided he would not rep B ham.. I know he is pretty particular about his credibility and I am sure Maverick probably did not listen to him any way... just frustrating when people like this keep reinventing themselves and creating the same destructive path ...

     Sociopaths in the RE business?  Say it isn't so!

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Account Closed  I call them financial sociopaths.. because of the carnage they leave behind and could care less  !!!! 

    And I agree I think a company like Maverick should step up here.. I remember when Norada had a semi public issue and to Marco's credit he stepped up with more than lip service and provided some financial help..

    Bottom line with this scenario is Maverick OBVIOSLY did no due diligence on the provider. Had they run a criminal and financial background check they probably would have passed and if they did and still went forward then double sham on them. I suspect they were  probably anxious to get into that market and went with who would pay them the most. I have seen it over the years.

    My boutique clients in B ham is as you say one of the few that has been at this in the same market for over 10 years... But most of his business comes from referrals.. he is very good at what he does.. He makes a fair profit for the work involved  NO where near what the other competing PM said 20 to 30k.. its common in that market to make 5 to maybe 10k per deal.. and you and I would never buy a property rehab it and then sell it and do it for any less than that.. right ? 

    I started funding turn key in 2002 and so I have been in many of these markets the decade plus as you state.. I am a little fired up this morning  going on my 3rd cup of coffee

    I am half tempted to enter this space as a turn key sales aggregator.. And do it with FUll and complete transparency.. All the way through the transaction.  And maybe I do it for a flat fee but you only pay me after the first year.. ( I don't need the money  now LOL)  how would that rock the industry  :)  And if your unhappy don't pay me and maybe I charge a flat fee of 2500 or so.. .not the 5 to 10k these guys add on top for marketing fees.

    anyway just spouting off this morning... clouds are lifting I think I will go practice some ILS and GPS approach's and forget about real estate today.... :)

  • Spencer SuttonBusiness Member
    Investor · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2015 · 119 posts · 148 votes
    10y

    @Jay Hinrichs sounds like you're taking my comments personally...hope that's not the case. 

    At the end of the day, it really depends on how deep a TK provider buys a house, right?  

    Just because someone buys a great house from a motivated seller doesn't necessarily mean they'll pass that discount on to a TK buyer. Would you?  

    I know I made that much on some wholesale deals in Birmingham back in the day. It's about supply/demand and how good you are at buying houses.

    I can't speak to your group moving to Decas from gkhouses.com...Matthew's never brought it up.  I hope it's been a great move for you all and everyone is happy.

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Ann Howell Sorry to hear this happened. Maverick should reach out and make you whole. I think there are a couple Bpers who work with Maverick, perhaps they see this post and relay. How a tk business conducts itself with bp members is an opportunity they don't want to miss. The $1500 loss is on the lower side of rip offs. I suspect the exit value loss could be more from what I have seen in the past. 

    Buyers can consider if locals are not supporting these prices organically, these out of staters are all getting ripped pretty good. If there was one business that the saying if you want to get it done right do it yourself fits, it is probably real estate. Not to say all TK sellers are the devil but between the fluffy numbers and strawman arguments to buy these, it kind of puts a cloud over the whole bunch. That is unfortunate.

     Thanks for sharing.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Spencer Sutton  I don't take any of this personally I don't need to .... my point is I have been funding TK operators since 2002... and I see the huds.. you gave the impression that these guys are making 20 to 30k per house on average.. this is not the case industry wide.

    And I was just pointing out that we moved our 34 homes from golden key to Decas for cash flow and cost saving reasons.. we were not performing as we would have liked with Golden Key.. our experience for what its worth has been much better at Decas but we have some pretty nice homes though... Now I got bought out of these a time back so I am no longer the principal but I am in constant contact with my old partner there who still owns them ...

    On the income level for many turn key guys

    the reality is more in the 5 to 10k range as the marketing companies take a big bite. So when someone goes direct like to my boutique TK operator that I fund in B ham I believe they get a strong deal at a strong price.. But its up to them to find these companies.

    And I believe he will do a build to suit for a flat fee of 6k.. that's a pretty strong deal he sources at wholesale rehabs at a price that an out of state investor could never get and works with PM to get it leased up and managed.. that's seems like a nice method as well. Of course that's only for cash buyers no financing for that program.

    Do people make 20 to 30k on flips sure they do.. but they don't do that on each and every one and do 5 or 10 a month... Plus they have overhead and costs.

    I know my guy in B ham if he has little issues they come back an fix things in the first year he gets his contractors to warranty.. But its about customer satisfaction for him. you won't see anyone on BP ragging about how they got ripped off from him.. And I have never seen his name or company mentioned on BP once.

  • Specialist · Orange County, CA · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 623 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    @Account Closed  I call them financial sociopaths.. because of the carnage they leave behind and could care less  !!!! 

    And I agree I think a company like Maverick should step up here.  I remember when Norada had a semi public issue and to Marco's credit he stepped up with more than lip service and provided some financial help..

    Bottom line with this scenario is Maverick OBVIOUSLY did no due diligence on the provider. Had they run a criminal and financial background check they probably would have passed and if they did and still went forward then double sham on them. I suspect they were  probably anxious to get into that market and went with who would pay them the most. I have seen it over the years. 

      

    Stepping up was the right thing to do for us.  Even when you're not at fault, it's just good business.  Reputation is very important!

    Once in a while we see service providers and property managers go rogue and become a big problem after being a good company.  We "fired" two (2) property management companies this year for this very reason.  Vetting providers will only take you so far.  You have to be nimble and agnostic.

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