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Updated over 8 years ago, 08/23/2016
Architect taking me on a ride?
Good evening BPers
I'm tearing down and building a single family home in Seattle. Our architect gave us a not to exceed quote of $6,500 and to date we've gone beyond that. Being that I've never been through this process I'm not sure what to expect. It's been a year and we haven't even submitted the plans to the city for permitting yet. We were very clear about what we wanted in the beginning - I sent him pictures, specs and I even drew out what I wanted.
What should these services actually cost us? And, does the architect usually take you through the permitting process? He also sent our plans to an engineer, the engineer charged us $3,600 and on top of that he charged us an additional $1,900 for the time he spent working with them on the plans. Is this normal?
I've read through several posts and costs seem a lot lower elsewhere in the country.
Someone walk me off the edge of the cliff please!
Nicole
Hello I can help out as another fellow architect. It really depends on your contract with him as to what is included or not. For an example permitting fees, engineering fees, etc. Should be spelled out. Was it in an AIA contract or a modified one? I chat with you to help guide you through it.
I am also a licensed architect and agree with Alec. In addition to what he said it sounds like he charged you a very low number. FYI, Architects have different fee types, such as cost per square foot, fixed fee, percentage of construction cost, etc. but as a good rule of thumb licensed architects usually charge 10-15% of the construction cost. Standard cost per s.f. of a home is $250, so a 1,000 s.f. home could potentially cost $250,000. So his fee could have been $25k to $37k in that example. Also consultants and engineers are usually included in that number and paid by the architect. I will say that a year is way too long as long as the project was ministerial and did not have to go through any public review process. 4-8 months is typical. He may be an unlicensed architect depending on what you paid. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks!
Thank you - it was an AIA contract preceeded by a proposal. He did tell me that he should've warned me that additional work due to engineering would be extra. Not too big of a deal, if the work needs to be done, it needs to be done and I'm willing to pay for it.
Thank you, he is licensed (retired) and just doing small projects. Glad to hear that the costs I'm paying are low comparatively. I read BP's New Construction Diary by J Scott (free download on BP) and they paid $2,500 for an architect in GA and other posts for single families have described lower costs. Maybe the rumor is true, Seattle is one of the most expensive cities in the nation!
Thanks tons for your help, I really appreciate it.
Hello Nicole,
I agree with @Matt Burr - the architectural cost you are paying is very low. I actually think that it is low enough that you should be a little concerned. It is good to get a cheap price, but at a certain point this becomes dangerous. As an example, if someone is selling a $200 car, there's no question that you got a cheap deal. The issue then becomes whether you can drive it without killing yourself (or anyone else).
We built a house in Seattle, and paid 12% of total construction cost to the architect. Costs are substantial because an architect's work does not end when the house is designed. Once construction crews come on board, there are dozens of questions that come up weekly that need to be dealt with by the architect. If this is not done, then the construction worker on site will probably take matters into his/her hands, and do what they think is best. This may very well be NOT what you want, and changing it to something that you would like could cost thousands of dollars.
As an example, what if the porch railing is set at 3 feet, but the construction worker notices that there are issues with the joint where it meets the wall? Should he/she just do it anyway? Should they lower the rail? By how much? Now multiply these questions by 50, and you can see how things can come off the rails pretty quickly.
A good architect will not just design the house, but also shepherd it through the construction process. This takes time, which in turn costs more than one would initially expect.
Just my 10 cents.
Thank you so much, this puts my mind at ease! I think his price was low due to the fact that he has some health challenges (which may be way it's taking longer to complete the plans) and he's retired. He is licensed, has a large portfolio and is a member of AIA but I agree, low prices should raise an eyebrow. Being that I've never done this before, I didn't know what to expect.
Thanks again, I feel a lot better about this now. May I ask who you hired to build your house? We're still interviewing contractors but we just eliminated one because he only builds green which would change our design substansially.
@Nicole S.- Exactly what @Micah Truman said. The construction management portion of the project is where a good architect can really shine.
Though the contract really is key in this matter. Typically consultant costs are extra, and the architect earns a fee of the total construction budget, but it does vary depending on the agreement.
@Account Closed
Fair enough. His contract does refer to consulting as extra so I assume that refers to the engineering portion (his time and their time).
I do have to wonder if we'd be better off hiring a firm that spits these houses out all over the city. The design we want is contemporary (which is just a square box) and also, an experienced builder will know what the city wants for permitting. It would seem it's been a while since he's gone through permitting and we might be paying for his learning curve in time and money. Then again, it sounds like we're getting a good deal right now and maybe I should just be thankful.
We also had some special requests to the plans that are unusual to the designs we're seeing right now (our kitchen and living room are on the top, third floor; we have an ADU in the basement and we're building to protect the view from the house next door that we own).
Your expertise is much appreciated.
@Nicole S. At this point you've committed to a certain contract and architect, so your options might be a bit limited. I'm sorry that your experience hasn't been so good; it's always disappointing to me that people have poor experiences with architects, but perhaps I'm too young and idealistic.
I'm not sure of your particular situation (you may of course message me with more details and we can figure things out) but in many municipalities you shouldn't legally speaking require an architect for a SFR. Think about all those tract-homes that developers build... most likely no actual architect was involved in the project. To complete the house-plans, get the permits, figure out the details of construction, estimate the price, work with consultants/engineers, bid the project, estimate the cost, and manage the construction (on a general and basic level) you really might only need a "builder", "designer", or "general contractor".
The value of using an architect comes from greater customization, specialization, and knowledge. Architects obviously run the gamut (like all professionals, for the most part) from good to exceptional, but as a general rule architects can add value to a project by:
-Greater construction efficiency
-Superior aesthetics/design
-Understanding of regulations, codes, variances, etc (above and beyond a GC)
-Speed & efficiency
-"Green" design or "Future-proofing" your house
-A more holistic approach to the project or superior experience.
It remains to be seen whether the premium you would pay for an architect will return on a buy/hold or flip-property. I would run the numbers to find out for sure, but frankly, I would probably think no. As much as it hurts me to say it, I'm not so sure that hiring an architect is the best choice for this type of project. If you're designing your dream-home... yes, absolutely. If you're doing a large multi-family or condo project... that experience will be invaluable. A skyscraper... goes without saying. But a SFH that you won't be living in, and aesthetics aren't extremely important... it's your call.
Shoot me a message if you need any more info. Good luck with your project.
You are getting sound advance from here. I would make a copy of your contract and highlight and "note up / comment on" in your own words where the section is confusing, like cliff notes! Always understand the Scope of Work of a Contract.
Its always best to have Construction Drawings (to some level), as they say a picture is worth a 1000 words.
@Account Closed
Great advice. The AIA contract is pretty straight forward. I think my confusion was how the cost of the project so far has exceeded his "not to exceed price". I also think it's a gray area as to how much design time is included in his fee and what is considered to be above what he estimated. We didn't have a lot of changes - I was very clear as to what I wanted, we only had a few minor tweaks and most of it was due to his interjections of items we didn't want. He must have redesigned the elevations a dozen times, none of that was at our direction. There was a point where we feared we wouldn't be able to afford the home so he took it upon himself (and he even sent the plans with those exact words) and reduced the size to get it within our budget.
Anyway, I think I know where I stand and I feel much better now that I've spoken to BP architects. Thanks to everyone for their input and expertise, I don't know what I would do without BP.
When you start talking 25k for architect fees, then thats clearly a whole other ball park that I'm completely clueless in. But here's the question I would have. How is it they can get a contract that says his fees cannot exceed $6,500 and yet his fees are exceeding $6,500????
Isn't that basic contract law there? Just because the guy underquoted them doesn't give him the right to go over that because it didn't pay him enough. Isn't that his own fault?
Again, no idea what the contract types are. But holy cow. If the contract states the not to exceed amount for his services are $6,500, then I, for one, would have a real problem if I ended up paying more than that.
Then again, I don't have the resources to build a custom home like that either nor would I pay for it if I did. I'm too cheap. :-)
#3 Contractors Contributor
- Contractor
- Los Angeles, CA
Nicole Sorensen Hull If the contract comes from the architect, most likely it is to protect himself in case of modified one, for AIA, it's pretty good. If you sign a not to exceed contract, then don't pay anything exceeding that amount, one you should know is exclusions, if it needs an engineering stamp and it is excluded on the not to exceed, you are entitled to pay it, if he chose an engineer that requires him to work way more than he should, that's on him; in your case, pay the engineer his fee but not 1900 extra to work with the engineer. On my end, if I sign it, I do it. If he is licensed, even if retired but have active license, you could file a complaint. I pay around 6k for drafters to draw house plans up to 2500 sf, exclusive of engineering stamp and architecture stamp, which I can get the drawings reviewed and stamped at 2-3k each if need be (but I lost contacts on both currently), your not to exceed price should include everything until you get working plans that are ready to shovel the next day.
My two cents:
Architects will quote a job based on the information they know. Your initial contract and the not to exceed portion is based on what is known at the time of the contract. Anything that is added that results in the scope of work changing has the potential to update to the services and scope (the same with a contractor passing along a change order).
That being said a year to get permit drawings seems very long. I have seen projects stuck in limbo this long prior to permitting due to certain planning department requirements (different than building department). For example historical / environmental departments need to approve specific issues with property or building. It could be that are issues your architect is dealing with on the front end prior finishing your permit drawings.
I think what everyone is saying here is that your architect isn't charging a lot to begin with, I just sounds he isn't doing the best job at managing your expectations.
My advice is to stay ahead of your architect with the due diligence, if this is your first build, call the planning department and stay in the loop with the permit process as much as you can if not only for the learning experience.
I will be praying for you on this one. Maybe that is why I like the dirt business, too many moving parts where you are at and a huge learning curve to boot. Wish I could be of more help to you but my positive energy may work.
Good Luck,
Agreed, we did not pay the last invoice until he sits down and resets expectations with us which he has yet to do.
I had thought about using a drafter, with hindsight that might have been better. The contract did come from the Architect but there wasn't anything in the contract we were opposed to. I think the real gray area is how did he come to a not to exceed price of $6,500 yet we are not complete and still far from permitting.
You hit the nail on the head. Our expectations have been mismanaged. I take some responsibility - perhaps I should have been more aggressive about the process with him. Now I'm having to get involved in permitting and answer simple questions for him that he can't seem to solve - such as finding phone numbers for city departments.
Thank you, I will need the prayers. I will likely never build in the City of Seattle again. The permitting process is a convoluted mess. I have confidence in my project management abilities - I mean, habitat for humanity builds houses with volunteers, how hard is it? ;-) You're right though, I have a big learning curve but all my mentors kept telling me, "you just have to do it."
That's right Nicole just got to do it! Keep at it and we're (BP'ers) all here for you.
#3 Contractors Contributor
- Contractor
- Los Angeles, CA
@Nicole S. I might have a different value, it might also be a short coming from you. You don't know what you don't know. However, I don't do business that way. Whenever I bid on a job, I do build everything in, and explain why my bid is high, and what is not included, I also write all of it down in paper. But, my clients are either government or commercial, so they already know 80% of the drill. On your part, you have a huge gap between you and your architect, the architect should be the one who should have explained everything and spelled everything out, but then again, to protect yourself, you should have asked all of what is NOT included on his bid, run a couple of scenarios and all that.
I don't pay anyone if there is any contract, any and all change orders must be valid, in paper request justifying why he needs the extra money, then I decide if I want to pay it, however, I am very detailed on contracts, but I am also very fair. If they prove that it's valid, I pay it, if it is too big, I talk to them that the project could not afford it. In my opinion, it is a not to exceed contract, so regardless of events and etc, you can opt to stick to the contract of paying only 6,500. He should not have signed anything he can't handle.