Out of State investors getting ripped off, heed these warnings!

Out of State investors getting ripped off, heed these warnings!

Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 191 posts · 432 votes

I am a local investor and I invest heavily in the Cleveland area. But I'm seeing a lot of out of state investors coming and buying here. I use to honestly get a little upset because I was feeling it was going to make investing harder for me or I was going to have to sit back until this trend slowed down or stopped. Because it will, I see investors going out as their coming in due to property management issues ( also I know things that are going to effect out of state investors that the City of Cleveland does that will effect these investors soon. I know this type of information because I worked there 20yrs. Unfortunately I cant spread that on BP. )

But that's just one instance, I know I might of teased you a little but that wasn't the real issue. The issue is that out of state investors are driving prices of homes up. That's going to happen and in most instances it cant be stopped. but there are well known PM on BP that increase these prices more or inflate others. Meaning as far as repairs. 

For instance I have a large network and I should considering I grew up here and am know in my network. I have a large pool of handymen that cover every aspect. I have about 10 full time guys and I can always pull others if needed. Anyways I seen one of my drywall side guys at the gas station. Just in conversation I asked what he's up too. He informed me that he's working with some Cali guys for the next 2 weeks and is " taxing their ***'s". I said really how's that?  "I'm hanging 38 drywall boards for 10k". He was laughing. I was like wow, that's crazy. I can get a whole house rehabbed in my areas for an average of 10-15k material's and labor (on average each house varies). I could easily get that done for 2k easily.  This is just one instance but these are the things that add up. 

My advise is this. Find REAL boots on the ground. Depending on your investment level that could be easier or harder. Create a team and do not depend on what property managers say. Do your own investigation. FLY OUT. Especially before you invest. FLY OUT and meet these people face to face. Two weeks ago I had 4 investors fly out from Cali to do their own investigations on people they wanted to work with. They reached out to me and others in the area. We talked and it went well. They were here for four days. They met with numerous others including PM companies. After it was said in done they contacted me and informed me they were interested in partnering in some ventures that I have. That they were surprised on how many pm companies failed to meet them, didn't answer their phones and weren't what they said they were. This included a popular name in this area that I see on BP all the time.

So keep in mind. These prices are increasing because of you. Not your fault but you are effecting the price. Once this dust settles they will not resell for what you purchased it for so be mindful . Follow trends. The market prices are going to drop ( a sign is no income verification needed loans, 2007 all over again.) You can get better rehab and repair prices. You can. Barter! Hell if that Cali investor would of told my side drywall guy 5k he would of did it still! If your investor you must save save save

My overall point. FLY out occasionally. FIND SOMEONE WITH INTEGRITY THAT YOU CAN TRUST.Never invest or buy from anyone until you meet them face to face. Fly out and check on your investment but don't let your property manager know. Then go to their office and see the books. Fight to get all repairs and rehab work prices lowered. You really can save a lot of money. There shouldn't be a difference between local and out of state prices.  hope this was helpful and good luck with your investments. 

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Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
7y

Well I must say this is better entertainment than watching Trump and Warren go at it over Native-American DNA.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Real Estate Agent · Willoughby, OH · Member since 2014 · 560 posts · 690 votes
    7y

    I can agree with most of your post. I helped a member that I met on here from California buy a nice 80k rental that happened to be down the street from my home in a far east of Cleveland suburb. Even mowed the grass for him all summer while it was vacant and did work to help him get it rent ready. I am not a property manager so I declined that aspect but assisted him to get to that point. There are good folks here, you just have to find them. I can agree, take a flight and spend a weekend here, it will be worth it in the long run.

  • Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 191 posts · 432 votes
    7y
    @James Galla we only manage properties that we own or are partners on. We are focused in the Cleveland area. I'm sorry but I do not have any references in Akron.
  • Investor · Salt Lake City, UT · Member since 2018 · 63 posts · 45 votes
    7y

    @Frank Wolter You hit the nail on the head. Fly out and see where and with whom you are investing. A growing portion of our business is helping OOS investors pick up turnkey rentals here in Cleveland  and I always tell them the best first investment they can make is a plane ticket.

    I would be really carefully buying rentals from companies that will go on to manage the property, because they can then profit from upcoming maintenance that they left undisclosed. We hear that one a lot.

  • Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 191 posts · 432 votes
    7y
    @Peter Ledger or in turn profit by mismanaging it, purchasing it at a discounted price back from the investor, recycling it and then selling it to a new investor. Do that over and over and over and it becomes the Renter Center of homes. Don't think they're not doing that.
  • Walnut Creek, CA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    dealing with contractors and evaluation of bids is a skill not everyone has.... And it is really highlighted when that person is out of state.

    To be fair though, these same people likely get ripped off locally...

    I should also add, to some they have far more money then time. Flying out or getting multiple bids as crazy as it seems is more expensive then just paying (a higher amount) to get it done quickly.  But I'm not implying an out of state investor not fly out to see where/what they are buying.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    @Frank Wolter  it is an amazing phenomena of out of area investors flocking to cash flow cities.. 

    I mean you don't see Me with Oregon and Ca properties running adds in Cleveland for you folks to come buy my properties. but you see all sorts of these companies that advertise their properties out in the areas were the residences are much more investor centric than were you live.. 

    but this started in 2000 or so I started funding out of state folks in 2002 and been doing it ever since.. however its tightening its finally got to the point were the recycle like you talk about has really calmed down.. as a whole the buyers are smarter and PM s do a better job.. and the investors have skin in the game so they did not walk from rentals like they did in 08 to 2010..  

    then you have the herd factor and what's hot.. 2 years ago it was Texas last year KC and INdy.. Memphis is pretty consistent .. now its Cleveland.. and I just spend the week in Detroit with a new vendor and its ROARing back.. probably has as much upside now as any of these markets and maybe more from what I saw.. 

    the locals will always think people over pay.. and we all think that because we are not picking up houses for 30k that were rent ready like you could have 5 years ago in your market. 

    I mean I buy Sherriff sales in your market I am still buying basically as many homes as I want to buy for 30k and under.. 

    its still there. 

    Professional landlords like yourself with substantial portfolio that are local.. are just another business. and successful one.. same equity owning a car dealership.. or a handful of Mickey Ds all make the same kind of revenue.. its just one way to make money in America..  but what creates this out of state frenzy is anyone can do it.. that has 20k in their pocket and desire and a 640 fico.. that's it. LOW barrier to entry..  And were they live rentals are all about appreciation and there are many that are really down on investing for appreciation so the buyers instead of saving up and buying West coast jump into mid west rust belt deed south.. with varying degrees of success.. but burnt out landlord syndrome in these areas is alive and well. that's for sure.  again not to the extent it once was .. but not every one is successful at it.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    PS when I was in Detroit 2 nights ago having dinner on my own I struck up a conversation with a guy that sells pharma 

    and lives in Cleveland we started to talk about rentals.. he lives there had 4 of them all according to him disasters and he cant wait to sell.. that's were your inventory comes from. and this guy is smart and lived there all his life.. 

    so not everyone just because they are local is up to the challenge of rentals.

  • Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 191 posts · 432 votes
    7y

    @Jay Hinrichs your exactly right. You may have funds. But you'll also need the connection, education and tolerance to perform to my standards. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Frank Wolter:
    @Jay Hinrichs your exactly right. You may have funds. But you'll also need the connection, education and tolerance to perform to my standards. But that's why I'm open to partnerships. I can provide all of that with skin in the game

    are you activily looking for partners and or PPM type syndications  where you manage them.. at your level seems like the logical next step.. sure would rather go with someone of your ilk than someone who just took a Brad Sumrok study course and is going to be their very first syndication or partnership.. I kind of cringe at that.. I know everyone has to start somewhere but with all the good experienced operators seems like a big risk for those with limited experience or personal portfolios. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    got it glad we could get your model out there with out you being censored.. !!!! 

    I have done that model and seen that model over the years.. one guys in INdy called Holdfolio did this

    not sure how it performed but chose the rights assets and proper management and that works.

    there was a guy in Ohio also that called him self MR> triple net.. he sold you a home then rented it back from you for a set fee then he leased it out in a master lease situation were he took care of everything.

    my model I used a debt instrument equity share model that basically worked like what your talking about but had a pref return no matter what was happening with the asset.. that put big onus on operator to perform..

  • Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    Lots of interesting stuff here. Keep talking.

    I will mention - I don't understand why the pref model isn't the exclusive model of choice. It's what we do in proper syndication. It's the most equitable. The sponsor shouldn't get paid out of the CF until the investor gets paid...

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2013 · 226 posts · 156 votes
    7y

    @Jay Hinrichs I totally understand the feeling of wanting to invest with someone with a track record, but first time syndicators aren't always a bad thing.  I am a student of Brad Sumrok's, as well as a member of his team now, but I can tell you that I've passively invested with several of his students, most of whom were first time deal sponsors.  Am i taking on additional risk since they do not have experience?  Possibly.  I didn't blindly throw money at them though.   I have to know them well, know that they've been educated, trust that they're going to ask for help if needed, and most of all, care more about their investors money than their own.  I was absolutely terrified of losing investors money in my first syndication, as well as all subsequent deals, and as long as I get the impression a sponsor feels the same, I'm great with investing in their deal as long as everything else meets my criteria.  

    Second to trusting the person, another huge reason I do it is because first timers typically take far less out of the deal than an experienced person would.  I've invested in many deals that have no acquisition fees, no disposition fees, construction management fees, refi fees, and whatever else.  No waterfalls either after a certain return.  Mitigates a lot of risk in my mind.  

    I also know that those educated by Brad tend to be pretty conservative in their underwriting.  I can't tell you how many times we've gone after a deal, seen someone pay FAR more than we were willing to, and then receive an offering for it with much more aggressive projections that I'd ever be comfortable with.  These are from "experienced sponsors" too.  Plus they've tacked on all the huge fees!  No idea how those are going to turn out, but I will pass.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Tom Lafferty:

    @Jay Hinrichs I totally understand the feeling of wanting to invest with someone with a track record, but first time syndicators aren't always a bad thing.  I am a student of Brad Sumrok's, as well as a member of his team now, but I can tell you that I've passively invested with several of his students, most of whom were first time deal sponsors.  Am i taking on additional risk since they do not have experience?  Possibly.  I didn't blindly throw money at them though.   I have to know them well, know that they've been educated, trust that they're going to ask for help if needed, and most of all, care more about their investors money than their own.  I was absolutely terrified of losing investors money in my first syndication, as well as all subsequent deals, and as long as I get the impression a sponsor feels the same, I'm great with investing in their deal as long as everything else meets my criteria.  

    Second to trusting the person, another huge reason I do it is because first timers typically take far less out of the deal than an experienced person would.  I've invested in many deals that have no acquisition fees, no disposition fees, construction management fees, refi fees, and whatever else.  No waterfalls either after a certain return.  Mitigates a lot of risk in my mind.  

    I also know that those educated by Brad tend to be pretty conservative in their underwriting.  I can't tell you how many times we've gone after a deal, seen someone pay FAR more than we were willing to, and then receive an offering for it with much more aggressive projections that I'd ever be comfortable with.  These are from "experienced sponsors" too.  Plus they've tacked on all the huge fees!  No idea how those are going to turn out, but I will pass.  

    SORRY that name just came to mind.. me personally I would never invest in a PPM or multi investor deal with some one new.. I think they should practice with close friends and family.. but that's just me.. I get it.. and I have no clue as to Brad quality of education.. like I said the name just popped into my head.. so please disregard my comment was not aimed at him or his student particularly just sharing my personal thoughts. 

  • Pleasanton, CA · Member since 2016 · 73 posts · 48 votes
    7y

    I cant wrap my head around folks who purchase OOS without flying out and visiting the area/people. Apparently this is very common since its been brought up fairly often. Thanks for the insight

  • Roseville, CA · Member since 2018 · 1 post · 1 vote
    7y
    @Frank Wolter Thank you Frank! I’m a new investor and truly appreciate your honest perspective. I’m also a Cali. guy and that’s why it has even more value. John Parale
  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Always do your own due diligence.  Any bad investment is the fault of the person making it and they have to assume responsibility for it.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ian Walsh:

    Always do your own due diligence.  Any bad investment is the fault of the person making it and they have to assume responsibility for it.  

     tend to agree but some just dont know what they dont know.. 

  • Member since 2018 · 2 posts · 5 votes
    7y
    @Frank Wolter I agree but what I will also note because I am a contractor in Detroit and I do property preservation as well, I cannot stress enough to investors is once you get ripped off please do not ask your new contractor for deals to clean up someone else’s mess. I have dealt with Chinese investors more recently and once they paid the bad contractor they don’t wanna pay me what the job is worth for 1. Budget had been met or over and 2. Does not trust anyone 3. Now just feels taken and no longer feels the job is worth the money that new contractor is asking for!!! I need investors to enter the agreement with the same energy as the 1st time otherwise I and like many others with integrity and been doing this for any amount of time will simply walk away. I do not take every customers money. I am busy enough that I will not tolerate being haggled, put on hold, or cheated out of any money that is earned. Lastly, please don’t discount what a contractor should earn especially if they are a good one. For some reason ppl try to devalue self employed folks as if the jobs they complete are not worth anything. It cost money to insure, in some cases bond and carry the liability of a job taken. Many ppl look at it as “it only takes this” (whatever they think) to complete. No company is paying for my insurance or benefits and all those costs unlike many ppl who sit at some companies desk gets paid for even if it’s not in your check! All cost must be accounted for that days work that is being completed. Like I said I have no issue saying no but get to know who you are working with in any case!!!
  • Rental Property Investor · Honolulu, HAWAII (HI) · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    If you are buying out of state just try to buy properties that rent for at least $900 a month. You will get better tenants and possibly be able to retail sell it as an exit strategy.

  • Specialist · Memphis, TN · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    I always think it's funny that people stress going and looking at OOS investments. I say funny because in Memphis looking at many areas would get you  INTO more trouble. 

    What will you learn visiting a strange city and looking at houses? 

    Nothing is the answer. 

    I think the basis of any due diligence is to source a top long standing PM or similar and getting them to advise you on the location. don't waste your money looking at cities you know nothing about. The first year I was in Memphis every house we were shown looked awesome, the street looked awesome. Almost every one of them was a terrible investment and now that I know the city intimately I would never have bought any of them.

    If you think you're the smartest person in your overall team you are already in trouble!

  • Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 191 posts · 432 votes
    7y
    @Dean Letfus I think you missed the point. It's not necessarily the city. Its looking people eye to eye. I know as a cop I could evaluate a person that was in front of me. That to me is critical if they're going to be managing my properties or investing my money. You cant do that over the phone.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    its kind of funny but we all have our things.. mine personally is the wholesaler ripping equity from ignorant sellers.. and thinking they are solving sellers problems.. of course its a minority view on BP by and large.. but you want to talk about lack of ethics..

  • Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y
    This post is like deja vu....
  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2017 · 129 posts · 62 votes
    7y

    Feels like the "posts that have been removed" to posts ratio is getting much higher here on BP.  Lots of censorship.

  • Rental Property Investor · St. Petersburg, FL · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y
    @Marshall Hooper The thing is that this business is almost solely built on reputation. So when you have a post like this, where accusations are made, based on anecdotal evidence, that can tarnish someone's reputation and, therefore, their livelyhood, keeping it up is counterproductive to what this forum is about. He has at least 2 or 3 nearly identical posts, bashing a company that is his direct competitor (even though he makes it very clear that they are not competitors 🙄), so that could warrant a post coming down.
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