contrators exposed (long post)

contrators exposed (long post)

Franklin, TN · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 15 votes

OK so going to post as one of the HATED contractors!

First as explained on the podcast there are three tiers of contractors.

The cheap....Probably one guy with or without a license who works for food, rent, bills etc. His only motivation is making his rent and possibly nightly beer money and or worst causes. I would say this is an avoid category or POSSIBLY a great handyman if you can keep him busy, not a contractor.

The middle.....where most people focus......He is a guy trying to establish himself....much like young investors are.....as a player in the contractor game. He has overhead. He pays his taxes. He pays his advertising. He pays for marketing. He has a few employees that he is responsible for. His motivation is growing his business.

The high end....the company. They have multiple people to deploy at any given time. They have a higher marketing budget, they have a higher "holding cost budget" if I may. They have many employees. They have anything an investor wants but you will pay a premium for it!

So where do you go?

The better question you should ask yourself is where are you personally? As an investor you don't want to pay too much for a service you can get cheaper, but you also don't want to go for the cheapest to create a headache. Look at the middle but understand how to leverage that as you study how to use a bank, or private funds, or even equity.

You can leverage contractors as many of the high end flippers will tell you.

If you are a flipper on your first project you may get multiple bids and not like the results. Here are the reasons why......the contractor always bids on worst case scenario on unknowns. The drywall has a small spot of mold on it? We will bid the floors in case. You want a door moved? We will bid on the chance that plumbing or electrical may need to be moved. This is for first time investors but "small time" investors are even worse.

You do one or two flips a month, and you have a 3 week window to complete a project, and you call your contractor to complete it and he says I'll be there in 3 weeks. He has mouths to feed, he has employees to pay, he has overhead costs to meet. If you offer a guy more business, great but not. Don't expect him to jump to your standards. Now if you are serious and can flip many house a month and secure him, he will be happy to work for you exclusively. If you promise this and he (and his employees sit for a week) he won't look at you as anyone that is looking out for him!

Investors are just like contractors. They look for the money. I assure you no matter how good of a relationship you have with your contractor, if you are offering him 500 for a days work and he has someone else offering him 700 for a days work you won't be on the top of his list unless you can realistically offer him more in the future.

As for the other big deal with contractors....the phone answer question I will say this. I return any call I get, ALL THE TIME, but as far as answering all the time, my fiancé will tell most of you that I answer about 50% of my calls at work because for one, we have a lot of loud stuff going on around us and two. Investors make money talking on the phone, we make money sawing, hammering, cutting, and really getting sh!t done, not talking about it.

My challenge is to @Joshua D. and Brandon Turner. Most of the problems here seem to be contractors and property managers.......so don't accept the norm, but get their stance Get a big name contractor and property manager. for an outside stance to give their take, on the podcast. Would love to hear it!

I would be willing to bet this! If you can take care of your contractor full time they will be willing to take care of you full time! If you can offer your contractor 6 weeks a year you are not on their priority list.

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Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes
13y

To expand a little more - for those contractors that are in the middle or high end of what @Tony Reale describes - we know what our costs are to complete a job and we are intelligent. In spite of what many of the guru programs say about low-balling your contractors during pricing negotiations, one of the quickest ways to lose a relationship with a good contractor is to continually want to lowball them while negotiating pricing. Your calls will no longer be taken and when YOU are in a bind and really need a helping hand, WE will be "too busy" to help you.

It is important to recognize good contractors as also being good business people, just the same as you are. Treat the right ones right and when you need something, they will jump at the chance to help you out. Kick them around and look down your nose at them, and they WILL get even! You may not even know how, but they will find a way to cost you more money than you thought you saved by beating them down to working for nothing.

I have been in construction for over 20 years and have worked everything from small remodels to major commercial construction and heavy/highway work. This is my world and I will make sure it is a win for me and a lose for you if you try to step on me. Conversely, if you are a loyal customer and fair in our business together, then it will be a win/win and I will go out of my way to help a good customer out of a bind.

Quick story for you to understand how it works - I was once working on a commercial development for a developer that drove very nice cars and was always dressed to the nines. He also looked down on his contractors as being "less than". One cold and rainy day, he rolls on to the job site in his $ 80,000 SUV, beeps the horn and motions me over. His wipers are going and the heat is rolling out of the window as he rolls it down just enough to talk to me. I'm standing in the cold rain answering his questions. On this particular day, I wasn't in the mood to be talked down to. I started asking questions about the grading on the back side of the buildings, areas only accessible on foot and the mud was a little over ankle deep. We had a schedule to keep and I know he didn't want to be the reason we fell behind. I acted confused and asked him to "show me" what he meant. Long story short, he was NOT dressed to be in the mud, but I knew him well enough to know how to get him out of his nice warm and dry SUV in his nice fancy shoes to ask stupid questions that I could have figured out all by myself. I successfully ruined his shoes and his pants and he didn't even know.

On the flip side of that story - I had a very good customer that always went out of her way to help me when I needed something or give me a little work if I was slow. She called and said she had a huge deadline with heavy penalties if she was late doing work at an airport 2 hours away. She needed me there the next morning prepared to run my equipment 24 hours/day OVER A WEEKEND! Her call was Thursday night and the job had to start the next morning. I made it happen. I was there personally and slept on the steering wheel of my truck 20 minutes here and 30 minutes there for the entire weekend. The job was completed on time late Sunday evening.

Whether it is a tenant, a contractor, a fellow investor, or somebody you are walking by on the street, treat them like a human and with respect, you never know when you might need the favor returned!

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  • Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes
    13y

    To expand a little more - for those contractors that are in the middle or high end of what @Tony Reale describes - we know what our costs are to complete a job and we are intelligent. In spite of what many of the guru programs say about low-balling your contractors during pricing negotiations, one of the quickest ways to lose a relationship with a good contractor is to continually want to lowball them while negotiating pricing. Your calls will no longer be taken and when YOU are in a bind and really need a helping hand, WE will be "too busy" to help you.

    It is important to recognize good contractors as also being good business people, just the same as you are. Treat the right ones right and when you need something, they will jump at the chance to help you out. Kick them around and look down your nose at them, and they WILL get even! You may not even know how, but they will find a way to cost you more money than you thought you saved by beating them down to working for nothing.

    I have been in construction for over 20 years and have worked everything from small remodels to major commercial construction and heavy/highway work. This is my world and I will make sure it is a win for me and a lose for you if you try to step on me. Conversely, if you are a loyal customer and fair in our business together, then it will be a win/win and I will go out of my way to help a good customer out of a bind.

    Quick story for you to understand how it works - I was once working on a commercial development for a developer that drove very nice cars and was always dressed to the nines. He also looked down on his contractors as being "less than". One cold and rainy day, he rolls on to the job site in his $ 80,000 SUV, beeps the horn and motions me over. His wipers are going and the heat is rolling out of the window as he rolls it down just enough to talk to me. I'm standing in the cold rain answering his questions. On this particular day, I wasn't in the mood to be talked down to. I started asking questions about the grading on the back side of the buildings, areas only accessible on foot and the mud was a little over ankle deep. We had a schedule to keep and I know he didn't want to be the reason we fell behind. I acted confused and asked him to "show me" what he meant. Long story short, he was NOT dressed to be in the mud, but I knew him well enough to know how to get him out of his nice warm and dry SUV in his nice fancy shoes to ask stupid questions that I could have figured out all by myself. I successfully ruined his shoes and his pants and he didn't even know.

    On the flip side of that story - I had a very good customer that always went out of her way to help me when I needed something or give me a little work if I was slow. She called and said she had a huge deadline with heavy penalties if she was late doing work at an airport 2 hours away. She needed me there the next morning prepared to run my equipment 24 hours/day OVER A WEEKEND! Her call was Thursday night and the job had to start the next morning. I made it happen. I was there personally and slept on the steering wheel of my truck 20 minutes here and 30 minutes there for the entire weekend. The job was completed on time late Sunday evening.

    Whether it is a tenant, a contractor, a fellow investor, or somebody you are walking by on the street, treat them like a human and with respect, you never know when you might need the favor returned!

  • Rehabber · Glen Rock, NJ · Member since 2013 · 28 posts · 2 votes
    13y

    @adam johnson and @tony reale these posts have been awesome, thank you guys so much. Adam, I loved the story about the guy ruining his shoes and pants! I can't stand people like that.

    Tony it was really interesting hearing you put the types of contractors into tiers, it makes a lot of sense.

    My whole reasoning and approach to working with contractors, or really anyone for that matter, is respect them and appreciate they're capable of doing something that I cannot, or at least not nearly as well. Using a sports metaphor here, I view them as a teammate that provides a crucial skill that compliments mine and helps us win.

    However, there are times when your contractors don't seem to share that same mentality - I'm betting they fall into the 1st tier Tony laid out for us. My perspective with a situation like that is, "ok, you screwed me this time, great." But how much did you gain from it? I will never use you again, nobody I know will ever use you again, etc. Was it really worth it? Who knows?

    Anyway thanks again guys, any tips I can take towards building long and mutually beneficial relationships with a contractor is worth it's weight in Gold. Much appreciated!

  • Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes
    13y

    @Account Closed - glad to help. I'm not really sure what got into me when I ruined his shoes, I guess I had reached my limit. One of my foreman watched it happen and I thought he was going to fall off of the dozer he was laughing so hard.

    I like your comment about building a team, that couldn't be more true. There are going to be good contractors that don't mesh well with your style. That's ok, find another good one that does. Just like I don't care for arrogant customers, I also don't care for arrogant contractors. I will settle for an "almost as good" person if they have the right attitude. Drama is a huge waste of time, productivity, and money.

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    I hate when people lump ALL of anything into a group, as we don't all think the same, act the same, or conduct business the same, whether we are contractors, investors, brokers, or any other vocation. There are working contractors all across the country that are struggling and trying to make ends meet. They work their tails off on the few scraps that they are getting right now, but do the same high quality work they've always done. Then there are some that do shoddy work, and don't care. Either way, you can't tell how good a contactor they are by the type of jobs they work on, or the car they drive, etc.

    There are very successful contractors, in small and large areas that make really good money. The fact that they make good money, and are in a good market, doesn't mean they are arrogant, and think they're better than others. Though it may be the case with some.

    How do you know that contractor in the nice truck wasn't just out at a meeting with financial investors, or sellers of property, etc. and dressed nice because he wanted to look professional, as he was lining up what is necessary to put another deal together that will employ people like you @Adam Johnson ? The fact someone dresses nice, and drives a nice SUV doesn't make them a bad person, a bad contractor or anything else.

    The point is, people need to make business decisions based on business. If you find a contractor that you like, get references and check them. Make sure they're licensed, bonded, and insured. If everything checks out, and if they give you a price that works with your job, use them, if not, don't.

    When getting bids, make sure you and the contractor are both on the same page by getting detailed bids, and draw up a contract that specifies exactly what the contractors responsibilities are and what yours.. Specify how payment will be made, who will buy materials, get permits, etc. Just because all of us may do it a certain way, there are some that do it differently, so be clear, and that will avoid most of the issues that come up.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y

    I'm with Karen on this. I'm not sure which podcast(s) you're talking about, but on mine -- and in all my writing on the subject -- I talk about how to find good contractors and how to weed out bad contractors. There are lots of both out there, but given that contracting is generally a low-barrier-to-entry business, there tends to be more bad contractors than good contrators.

    That said, most of my contractors have been with me for many years, and not only would I trust them renovating my properties, I'd trust them babysitting my kids. A good contractor is more like a partner than an employee, and when you cultivate a good relationship with a contractor, both sides win.

    As for the investor who pulled up in his nice car and fancy clothes, who cares. I drive a 12 year old car and wear flip flops 364 days a year, but if I were to drive a Ferrari and wear a $1000 suits to my jobsites, I'd expect the same treatment from my contractors. I don't judge them by what they wear, what they drive, where they live, etc...and I expect the same in return.

    If you feel the need to "get back" at an investor because of how he treats you, perhaps you should just consider not taking the job next time. If you're happy taking someone's money, you should treat them like a customer; if you refuse to treat them like a customer, don't take their money. You can't have it both ways...

  • Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes
    13y

    @Karen Margrave and @j scott, I'm not not exactly sure how/why this turned into bashing me. Maybe my original point was missed. This particular developer treated everybody like the dirt on his shoe. I had enough of being treated that way and I fixed it in my way. The mention of the vehicle and clothing went along with his attitude. I judged him by his attitude toward me, that simple.

    I choose my customers and I don't hesitate to tell people that I don't want to work with them because of their attitude or if they disrespect me because I wear steel toe shoes and blue jeans.

    I've said all I want to say. Good day.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    13y

    This topic is eye opening. LOL

    This should SHOW people out their that "flipping houses" or whatever you want to call it takes a bunch of work and coordination to make happen.

    People think it is this easy thing. Since I am on the commercial real estate side of things certain things are occurring now. Commercial building is starting to ramp up again. Contractors who were amazing who couldn't find work or only small jobs were doing investor jobs on the side for a discount. Many of those contractors are now getting hired on for commercial sites for longer term jobs on big construction projects at close to retail rates.

    A contractor who can land long term work for close to retail rates is super happy to not have to keep grinding to find project after project. To be fair to contractors I think many investors can overpay for the property and then try to get a contractor to do work way below market to pay for their mistakes of buying too high. I see this on rentals too where the investor talks themselves into managing but then later on wants to use a PM but pay nothing because they overpaid for what they thought would be savings to do themselves. This is when the PM nightmare starts to happen and you lose thousands with your property instead of the 20 bucks a month you thought you were sticking it to the PM with.

    I agree there is a bad element in any field and then the positive ones.

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    13y

    @Adam Johnson I wasn't bashing you, but merely saying that you can't generalize and paint everyone with such a broad brush.

    @J Scott there may be a low barrier for entry in some areas, but in California we have to have 4 years of on the job experience and pass a state test for licensing. In some states you have to have a license to do residential construction, but not commercial (Arizona I believe). However; just because someone has a license doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

  • Rehabber · Glen Rock, NJ · Member since 2013 · 28 posts · 2 votes
    13y

    I feel like Adam's message got a bit misconstrued here. I didn't perceive it at all as though he has a chip on his shoulder because his investor wore nice clothes and had an expensive car - his point was that this particular investor had a poor attitude towards his "employees" and showed very little respect for them. The nice clothes and high end car was simply providing more color to an anecdote he was sharing, and his message may have gotten a bit lost with that.

    What I think he was getting at, and what we all seem to universally agree on, is treat the people you work with with respect and how you'd like to be treated and it will/should come back to you. Unfortunately, it's not a perfect world and that doesn't always happen. However, if you agree to a job and you're compensated for it than you need to perform to the best of your abilities, as I'm sure Adam did in completing that project. Going forward though I'm just as confident Adam wouldn't help out that guy if he was in a jam. Essentially, it's all about building relationships, and Adam and Tony were just sharing what they look for from their perspective of contractors. That’s the way I interpreted it anyway.

  • Investor · Macomb, MI · Member since 2013 · 654 posts · 115 votes
    13y

    @Adam Johnson, It appears you have had a bad situation and are basically venting on here. I agree with many of the comments people posted. I can see both sides. And it seems you are bashing investors.

    How can I agree with both sides here? Because I have a background as a contractor in the housing industry years ago. Concrete, hardwood and laminate and a little bit of painting. I also have a contracting history in the auto industry now but in a completely different field, Robotics.

    As @Joel Owens stated, it takes lots of cooperation and people coming together when doing a Real Estate project. Part of the conflict I think is that most people running their own business are very strong minded. So this can cause people to bump heads. Too many people are 'Stuck' in their ways. I am a very open minded person due to my background in life and in work. Contractors think their way is the only way and investors think there way is the only way. There needs to be a middle. Many times I have surprised my contractors, especially painters, on how I handle my process and what materials I use. Efficiency and quality is key and how I run my projects.

    I as an investor have the understanding and ability to do a majority of the work on my projects but I would rather not. Unfortunately once again I AM having to work on a project after I leave my regular job due to people NOT wanting to do theirs. This topic will never be agreed upon most likely.

    What I want everyone to understand is that there are numerous ways to accomplish the same end result. So quit arguing about it. Listen to what each other say. Mis-communication is the biggest problem in any industry. Too many chiefs on a project.

    As mentioned in one of the posts, contractors have costs and overhead. This comment really bothers me because I just had a painter tell me this when I wouldn't give him a draw. (I do NOT pay draws or pay deposits.. and YES my company is growing just fine). But come on, are you really stuck so deep in your own world to think an Investor doesn't have costs??? Who paid for the house? Who's paying holding costs? Who pays for closing costs? Who pays the Real Estate Agent? Who pays the CONTRACTORS? So all you contractors who cry "We have Costs" -- Get over it!!!

    I personally do things different than what I see most investors do also because of my background. I'm not rich. I work a full time job as many of us do and take that money to invest. But just because I am an investor instead of on the contractor side of Real Estate doesn't mean I don't know what's going on or how to do things. MOST contractors I have dealt with treat as if I don't know what I'm talking about. So I don't hire them or if they are already working for me, I fire them and finish the job myself of hire someone who DOES know what they are doing.

    So let's not bash anyone here and just agree to disagree and EVERYONE needs to be more open minded when working with each other. If we had more of this, then everyone makes money and the projects run smoother.

    Many people have told me that my process won't work. Well it has for 4 projects now. If someone isn't open minded and SET in their ways, I find someone else. It is NOT our responsability to cover someones overhead in ADVANCE.

    Here is a blog I wrote when I needed to vent just last week about a contractor. Read it and you will understand why I see both sides and why I don't have sympathy for a contractor who can't manage their money.

    http://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/4178/blog_posts/29035-20-bucks-for-gas

    The painer I found to replace the one I fired asked for a draw. I said no. He said I will have trouble finding someone to work without a draw.... Guess what.. .He did the job without a draw. The day he was done, i walked the property and he was paid in full and happy. After we had our differences about pay and the materials and process I use for painting, he left last night admitting my process and materials worked out very well and he was surprised because he has been a painter for around 30 years. I'm not boasting, I'm just making a point. He fought me all the way to the end then realized I was onto something!!

    So again, open your mind. Cooperate as Joel stated. It's so much easier that way.

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2012 · 218 posts · 48 votes
    13y

    I have used contractors that fit into each of you categories, and as a developer and investor I cannot tell you how valuable a good contractor is.

    This being said, I'm not a warm and fuzzy guy and I hold people to a high standard, just as I do for myself. All I ask is that they follow through with what they have agreed to do.

    I also happen to wear nice clothes to work, as well as have some nice cars. The reason he didn't want to get out of the car is because he had nice clothes on that he didn't want to ruin.

    Contractors are welcome to do what I do, in fact they could probobaly make more than I do on projects by being both developer and contractor, but until they do they need to remember that they work for me. It's my risk, its my money and I am the boss because of this. I'm not unrealistic and I'm happy for others to enjoy some successes along the way, but if the contractor netted the same as I do, with no skin in the game or risk I would not be extatic.

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y

    Cookie Cutter Contractors?!? Not sure what was "exposed" here! What it all brought to my mind is that one ego recognizes another. If more people simply lived by the Golden Rule and understood that what goes around tends to comes around, we'd ALL be better off. But, we dont live in a perfect world.

    The finding of a good contractor is as complicated as one chooses to make it. I would sum it up in three words... "Trust but verify". There are bad apples in every bunch. You dont eat an apple and then wonder if you have a worm in yer belly! You look it over good and if you find no holes you take a bite. If it tastes good you eat it. If it doesnt you spit it out and grab another.

    I drive a 93 F250 and measure my success by how many days Im able to spend in the woods or mountains with my longbow. If the next guys drives a Mercedes and wears suits and measures his success by the size of his bank account, doesnt make him better or worse. Just different. I mean... I feel sorry for the guy... Lol... But if everyone were like me, then we'd ALL be special and special wouldnt mean anything!! :c)

    Thats MY psycho-babble for the day! :c)

  • Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes
    13y

    @Tony Reale - my apologies for leading your original post astray. I seem to have stirred quite a response, which was not my intent. I relate 100% to your original post - as an investor, as a property manager, as a real estate broker, as a leader in my local REIA and most of all as a fellow contractor.

    Best of success in all you do and thank you for sharing.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y

    Adam -

    I wasn't bashing you. I was merely pointing out that if you didn't like the way the investor was treating you, instead of going out of your way to try to ruin his day, why not just refuse the job instead? You treating him badly makes you no better than him. In fact, he may have just been an idiot who want doing it on purpose, while you were doing it on purpose.

    Btw, I probably would have done the exact same thing you did...which is how I know it was wrong...I'm a jerk and generally do the wrong thing when it comes to dealing with idiot people... :-)

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2009 · 210 posts · 261 votes
    13y

    "I drive a 12 year old car and wear flip flops 364 days a year"

    @J Scott

    What kind of shoes do you were the other day?

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by David Jackson:
    "I drive a 12 year old car and wear flip flops 364 days a year"

    @J Scott

    What kind of shoes do you were the other day?

    I average about one wedding/funeral per year, so it's tennis shoes that day... :-)

  • Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes
    13y

    J - it was a little more complicated than simply walking away. It was a $ 250,000 contract as part of a $ 2.5 million dollar project. I had a contract to live up to, which I did. It wasn't my first rodeo and won't be my last. The guy was a jack a$$, plain and simple. Whether what I did was right or wrong is for others to judge. For me, I felt pretty good about it, and I'm not normally that way.

    The original point I was trying to make got lost somewhere along the way (many, many posts ago). It seems nobody noticed that I compared that story to the one about working for 3 days straight, 24 hours a day with 20-30 minute cat naps on my steering wheel trying to help out a customer that had always been good to me and treated me right. I offered both stories to demonstrate that you reap what you sow. That lesson goes beyond contractor relationships.

  • Contractor · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 351 posts · 196 votes
    13y

    Can someone splain something to me? Why is it that Investors arent signing contracts provided by contractors? Who is the customer? Is the contractor your employee... employers set the rules/terms? Customers are provided terms by service providers. If they dont like the terms they take their business elsewhere.

    Is this not upside down? Are Investors just more intellegent than contractors?... Better equipped to protect all involved? I dunno. Im just a dumb contractor!! :c)

    <end sarc>

    @Aaron... If you called me to do a rehab for you, you would pay me a 25% downstroke, plus pay for the materials that I insist on purchasing myself. If you would like to know my equally logical reason for how I do things, id be happy to explain. Oops! I put <end sarc> in the wrong place.

    <end sarc>

    :c)

    When it comes to people(and contractors are people too)... There IS no "one size fits all"!

  • Rental Property Investor · Holley, NY · Member since 2011 · 507 posts · 347 votes
    13y

    @Randy F. - one of my more expensive life lessons involves working on a large project that ended with me getting stuck for over $ 100,000. Job was completed, on schedule and as agreed by me. Even though I knew I was headed for trouble the last 2 weeks of the job and likely would have problems getting paid, my contract said I could not delay the schedule for any reason, and I didn't. Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to ruin his shoes. I didn't get paid and never will either.

    My family suffered greatly as a result. I don't apologize when I ask for tough payment terms and don't look back if I smell a skunk.

    It is unfortunate that, generally speaking, it becomes an us vs. them situation, with "us" and "them" being vague. I run my businesses as a team operation. My perception of a team is that every member has a purpose and that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. My customers are team players. When they stop being team players, they stop being my customers.

    I think the original post was intended to illustrate that it doesn't have to be us vs. them because, as you said, we are people too, with families to feed and dreams to realize.

  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Aaron Yates:
    @Adam Johnson

    As mentioned in one of the posts, contractors have costs and overhead. This comment really bothers me because I just had a painter tell me this when I wouldn't give him a draw. (I do NOT pay draws or pay deposits.. and YES my company is growing just fine). But come on, are you really stuck so deep in your own world to think an Investor doesn't have costs??? Who paid for the house? Who's paying holding costs? Who pays for closing costs? Who pays the Real Estate Agent? Who pays the CONTRACTORS? So all you contractors who cry "We have Costs" -- Get over it!!!


    I haven't given a contractor an advance in years. I sometimes let them use my accounts at the hardware store and lumber yards for materials, but they never ask for money up front anymore. I pay asap, but I require invoices that make sense. This is a down fall for a lot of contractors. If you hand me an invoice for expenses that don't add up or for hours on the project that aren't accurate, I don't care if it was unintentional or not. Fix it so makes sense and then I'll pay. And then I'll be watching to see if this is a pattern.

    I did a rehab in January where an agent managed the rehab. I only visited the job once. I did give him an advance only for materials. His general contractor and all the subs billed me at the end of the job. He had a great team who did the work for great prices. Their goal is to be busy and get paid promptly.

    That being said, there are some high end contractors here in town that don't take a job without an advance and they get it everytime. If you want X to build your cabinets or J to tile your fireplace or B to do your custom cast iron railings, you'll get in line with everyone else that wants them, schedule them 6 months out and pay an advance when the job starts. But for your average rehab flip, there are plenty of contractors to choose from that know what they are doing and can manage their costs without an advance.

  • Investor · Wichita Falls, TX · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 603 votes
    13y
    Originally posted by J Scott:

    Classic!

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